Most misleading record holder?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Ryan52, Sep 20, 2011.

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  1. Ryan52

    Ryan52 Registered User

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    Who are some players that held records mostly due to longevity, and where never really a top player?
     
  2. GuineaPig

    GuineaPig Registered User

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    Messier being 2nd in all-time scoring is a good example, as is Brodeur being 1st in wins.
     
  3. Win Jiggys Loft

    Win Jiggys Loft Registered User

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    In terms of misleading, isn't Sundin #1 all time in GWG?
     
  4. SidGenoMario

    SidGenoMario Registered User

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    Mike Gartner and every record or close-to record he holds.
     
  5. GuineaPig

    GuineaPig Registered User

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    Isn't it regular season overtime goals?

    That isn't as misleading as it is just a category with small numbers. Kovalchuk and Ovechkin were amongst the top four for GWGs last year (Erik Cole's tied for fourth as well), in off-years for both of them.
     
  6. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    Plus that OT only have been used in some seasons, not all.
     
  7. Eisen

    Eisen Registered User

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    Nailed it
     
  8. Kane One

    Kane One Registered User

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    Does being the record-holder of a statistic that wasn't always kept count? If so, Thomas' single season SV% record.
     
  9. hattrick3518

    hattrick3518 Registered User

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    Brodeur has a couple
     
  10. Wrigley

    Wrigley The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine

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    Gretzky's PPG record. Before he came out of retirement, Mario was over 2. If defense matters, Mario and Gordie are both better than the Grape One.
     
  11. plusandminus

    plusandminus Registered User

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    But Gretzky was ahead of Mario earlier on, so if Gretzky had retired earlier Gretzky would have still led.
     
  12. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Messier I can see a little bit. But Brodeur? How so? No, most of us don't have him ahead of Roy on an all-time list but he's almost exclusively in the top 5-6. Plus he led the NHL in wins about 8 different times. That is hardly a product of longevity when you are lapping your competition year in and year out.

    Messier is a little different of a case. Never led the NHL in points. Came 2nd once. Is clearly less offensively talented then many players behind him too.

    How about Dave Andreychuk and the career power plays record? Phil Esposito led it before him and that would surprise no one. But Andreychuk passed him. Weird.
     
  13. nik jr

    nik jr Registered User

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    there were unofficial sv% stats from earlier eras.

    some newspaper reports of sv% from '20s and '30s have been posted on this site.

    highest i can remember were over .970. over .950 was usual at that time.


    sv% stats since '54 have been reconstructed from game reports. highest was jacques plante in '71 at .941 or .942. plante also had .940 in '69, iirc.
     
  14. bruins309

    bruins309 Krejci Fight Club

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    Not sure if the OP means only CAREER marks....but I think Sheldon Souray holds the record for PP goals in a season by a defenceman from his last year in Montreal (2006-07)

    What's funny is that he broke the mark set by Denis Potvin (a guy you'd expect) and Adrian Aucoin (a guy you wouldn't expect to have THAT many)
     
  15. GuineaPig

    GuineaPig Registered User

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    Brodeur's wins total is misleading because it relies on three things: his consistently above-average play, the strength of the teams he's played on, and the way his team has utilized him. The latter two are the rare circumstances. To make an analogy with Messier, Brodeur spent many years playing just average or above average, with only a couple seasons where he was amongst the best of the league (two top 3 finishes in save percentage, four top 5 finishes).

    Another example for Brodeur would be his pending assumption of the all-time loss record, for obvious reasons.
     
  16. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

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    The ability for a goalie to play that many game every season with long playoff run and being a top 5 goalie in the league for a long period made Brodeur having this record.

    Also the period he played hockey (lockout aside) was the best for doing the record imo.

    Obvisouly goaler of 50 game season could not do it, and prime patrick Roy time few goalie played much than 65 game a year (like Grant Fuhr). And for the playing in a good team, it is true but certainly mandatory for this, any goaler with wins record would have made it with a good team and the Red Wings goalie contempory of Brodeur could have won more than him, Roy played for a powerhouse at the same time than Brodeur and was not winning more game than him.

    The record is not misleading for me, Messier second in points is much more (anybody that is not mario lemieux at this position can mislead people in fact).

    Saku Koivu captain with the most season for the Habs over Beliveau could mislead people in 2070.

    If Messier and Francis would have been to go ahead of Howe in game played, that could be misleading for people not knowing that Howe played in season with less game.
     
  17. Fire Sweeney

    Fire Sweeney Registered User

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    All of Brodeur's records.
     
  18. connellc

    connellc Registered User

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    Dale Hunter being second of all time in PIM. The guy wasn't even a great fighter.

    Also somehow he also got 1000 points. Never really had a great season either (never had 30 goals or 80 points in the 1980's). Very very strange on both cases.
     
  19. KingGallagherXI

    KingGallagherXI Registered User

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    The wins stat is too team dependent to be considered a meaningful stat. 35 wins with an average or mediocre team can be more impressive than 45 with a great team.

    The most impressive Brodeur record IMO is games played, not wins. He had some pretty good endurance. He even played 78 games in a season with a .922 save percentage, now that's excellence. It may even be a better regular season than 2011 Thomas (debatable).
     
  20. GuineaPig

    GuineaPig Registered User

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    More valuable to his team? Almost certainly. Better overall performance? I don't think so.

    I haven't seen any convincing evidence that playing lots of games affects goaltender performance, so much of the difference was that Thomas was simply played less.
     
  21. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

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    The subject is a very good idea, but Gretzky make it a little bit meeeeh, we can only talk about no-Gretz record and that are not that much.
     
  22. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Well just to show you Brodeur was for the most part an elite goalie his whole career:

    2nd team all-star ('97, '98, '06, '08)
    1st team all-star ('03, '04, '07)

    Vezina finishes (top 3 finishes only): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3

    Considering Glenn Hall is the only goalie with more year end all-star selections I think its safe to say Brodeur did consistently great over the bulk of his career. You don't get 200 more wins than every other goalie (minus Roy) by playing on the "right team". Its obvious to me Brodeur is far from a compiler and it shouldn't shock anyone that he rests atop many lists
     
  23. JWells16

    JWells16 Registered User

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    How about Lucky Luc leading all left wingers in scoring?
     
  24. MadLuke

    MadLuke Registered User

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    Very good one, should be Bobby Hull.

    Obviously misleading for people that do know the period is was playing and the scoring level of the 80', first part of the 90', also for people that do not know that Bobby Hull did left the nhl for millions dollars.
     
  25. benr

    benr Registered User

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    How about Boucher with the longest shutout streak of all time?
     

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