Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Ryan52, Sep 20, 2011.
Who are some players that held records mostly due to longevity, and where never really a top player?
Messier being 2nd in all-time scoring is a good example, as is Brodeur being 1st in wins.
In terms of misleading, isn't Sundin #1 all time in GWG?
Mike Gartner and every record or close-to record he holds.
Isn't it regular season overtime goals?
That isn't as misleading as it is just a category with small numbers. Kovalchuk and Ovechkin were amongst the top four for GWGs last year (Erik Cole's tied for fourth as well), in off-years for both of them.
Plus that OT only have been used in some seasons, not all.
Does being the record-holder of a statistic that wasn't always kept count? If so, Thomas' single season SV% record.
Brodeur has a couple
Gretzky's PPG record. Before he came out of retirement, Mario was over 2. If defense matters, Mario and Gordie are both better than the Grape One.
But Gretzky was ahead of Mario earlier on, so if Gretzky had retired earlier Gretzky would have still led.
Messier I can see a little bit. But Brodeur? How so? No, most of us don't have him ahead of Roy on an all-time list but he's almost exclusively in the top 5-6. Plus he led the NHL in wins about 8 different times. That is hardly a product of longevity when you are lapping your competition year in and year out.
Messier is a little different of a case. Never led the NHL in points. Came 2nd once. Is clearly less offensively talented then many players behind him too.
How about Dave Andreychuk and the career power plays record? Phil Esposito led it before him and that would surprise no one. But Andreychuk passed him. Weird.
there were unofficial sv% stats from earlier eras.
some newspaper reports of sv% from '20s and '30s have been posted on this site.
highest i can remember were over .970. over .950 was usual at that time.
sv% stats since '54 have been reconstructed from game reports. highest was jacques plante in '71 at .941 or .942. plante also had .940 in '69, iirc.
Not sure if the OP means only CAREER marks....but I think Sheldon Souray holds the record for PP goals in a season by a defenceman from his last year in Montreal (2006-07)
What's funny is that he broke the mark set by Denis Potvin (a guy you'd expect) and Adrian Aucoin (a guy you wouldn't expect to have THAT many)
Brodeur's wins total is misleading because it relies on three things: his consistently above-average play, the strength of the teams he's played on, and the way his team has utilized him. The latter two are the rare circumstances. To make an analogy with Messier, Brodeur spent many years playing just average or above average, with only a couple seasons where he was amongst the best of the league (two top 3 finishes in save percentage, four top 5 finishes).
Another example for Brodeur would be his pending assumption of the all-time loss record, for obvious reasons.
The ability for a goalie to play that many game every season with long playoff run and being a top 5 goalie in the league for a long period made Brodeur having this record.
Also the period he played hockey (lockout aside) was the best for doing the record imo.
Obvisouly goaler of 50 game season could not do it, and prime patrick Roy time few goalie played much than 65 game a year (like Grant Fuhr). And for the playing in a good team, it is true but certainly mandatory for this, any goaler with wins record would have made it with a good team and the Red Wings goalie contempory of Brodeur could have won more than him, Roy played for a powerhouse at the same time than Brodeur and was not winning more game than him.
The record is not misleading for me, Messier second in points is much more (anybody that is not mario lemieux at this position can mislead people in fact).
Saku Koivu captain with the most season for the Habs over Beliveau could mislead people in 2070.
If Messier and Francis would have been to go ahead of Howe in game played, that could be misleading for people not knowing that Howe played in season with less game.
All of Brodeur's records.
Dale Hunter being second of all time in PIM. The guy wasn't even a great fighter.
Also somehow he also got 1000 points. Never really had a great season either (never had 30 goals or 80 points in the 1980's). Very very strange on both cases.
The wins stat is too team dependent to be considered a meaningful stat. 35 wins with an average or mediocre team can be more impressive than 45 with a great team.
The most impressive Brodeur record IMO is games played, not wins. He had some pretty good endurance. He even played 78 games in a season with a .922 save percentage, now that's excellence. It may even be a better regular season than 2011 Thomas (debatable).
More valuable to his team? Almost certainly. Better overall performance? I don't think so.
I haven't seen any convincing evidence that playing lots of games affects goaltender performance, so much of the difference was that Thomas was simply played less.
The subject is a very good idea, but Gretzky make it a little bit meeeeh, we can only talk about no-Gretz record and that are not that much.
Well just to show you Brodeur was for the most part an elite goalie his whole career:
2nd team all-star ('97, '98, '06, '08)
1st team all-star ('03, '04, '07)
Vezina finishes (top 3 finishes only): 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Considering Glenn Hall is the only goalie with more year end all-star selections I think its safe to say Brodeur did consistently great over the bulk of his career. You don't get 200 more wins than every other goalie (minus Roy) by playing on the "right team". Its obvious to me Brodeur is far from a compiler and it shouldn't shock anyone that he rests atop many lists
How about Lucky Luc leading all left wingers in scoring?
Very good one, should be Bobby Hull.
Obviously misleading for people that do know the period is was playing and the scoring level of the 80', first part of the 90', also for people that do not know that Bobby Hull did left the nhl for millions dollars.
How about Boucher with the longest shutout streak of all time?
Separate names with a comma.