More Speculation About Babcock's Future

[RedWinger10]

He'll be extended

 

[Heaton]

It's only "fluff'" because out our Red Wings beat reporters have no balls to do any digging themselves.

Helene St James is busy tweeting out Bertuzzi's pink socks. These reporters wouldn't report if Lidstrom wanted Babcock fired.

Just like they won't look into any rift between Babcock and Holland. Just like they won't look into any rift between D or Z and Babcock.

And the Wings organization basically never let anything like this leak. This is the same thing as trusting Mike Valenti and some random fan blogger as a 'source'. It's all opinions without any real backing. I do think this is Babcock's last year though.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

With the inevitable youth movement, I would be in favor of rolling with Nill as GM and either Renney or Blashill as the HC.

Renney is exactly what you DON'T want. Dude got the Edmonton job handed to him on a silver platter after a one year apprentiship under Quinn and wore out his welcome after a year. He's not the person you want in charge with a young team.

Renney is the genius guiding our power play at the moment, need I say more?

 

[Heaton]

Renney is exactly what you DON'T want. Dude got the Edmonton job handed to him on a silver platter after a one year apprentiship under Quinn and wore out his welcome after a year. He's not the person you want in charge with a young team.

Renney is the genius guiding our power play at the moment, need I say more?

I don't think that's fair - Edmonton has had inept management for years.

 

[icKx]

Sucks we let MacLean get away.

What about bringing McLellan back?

His days in SJ are surely numbered.

 

[Heaton]

Sucks we let MacLean get away.

What about bringing McLellan back?

I think if Babcock doesn't come back we need someone different. Has McLellan really shown much in San Jose than Ron Wilson didn't?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I've thought for a while that Babcock would leave when his current deal was done. He's not the type of coach to hang around when his GM isn't as interested in winning as he is.

Oh save the BS. If you want to say that Holland hasn't done a great job or has been trigger shy and only stayed in his comfort zone in recent years, that's fair. But to say he doesn't want to win as much as Babcock, that's a freaking joke.

Babcock's lineup decisions from Cleary to Lashoff to Tatar to Kindl and on and on have been atrocious this season. Go on and try to sugarcoat everything for him though and say that Holland is the sole problem.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I think if Babcock doesn't come back we need someone different. Has McLellan really shown much in San Jose than Ron Wilson didn't?

He showed he can beat our current coach head to head twice and the special teams have been declining since the day he left.

 

[Heaton]

Oh save the BS. If you want to say that Holland hasn't done a great job or has been trigger shy and only stayed in his comfort zone in recent years, that's fair. But to say he doesn't want to win as much as Babcock, that's a freaking joke.

Babcock's lineup decisions from Cleary to Lashoff to Tatar to Kindl and on and on have been atrocious this season. Go on and try to sugarcoat everything for him though and say that Holland is the sole problem.

Holland has made 1 impact trade during the past decade which was a no-risk deal to get Stuart. In the past 5 years he's lost half his blueline and replace them with nothing. He's watched teams like Pittsburgh, Boston and Philly make impact trades and signings and Holland hasn't shown any ability or desperation to build this team. Yes he was in on Nash, Weber and Suter, but so were other teams.

He's given his coach little to nothing to work with and while that doesn't excuse Babcock's decisions it definitely limits them. The idea that Babcock's grade would go from a C or D to an A by playing Tatar or Nyquist with Datsyuk and not playing Lashoff is silly. Give Babcock some real options with real impact players. Tatar and Nyquist will help this team now, but there should've been way more than just them. And that problem has been apparent for a lot longer than Babcock playing Cleary and Abdelkader with Datsyuk.

 

[Heaton]

He showed he can beat our current coach head to head twice and the special teams have been declining since the day he left.

If McLellan can bring over Thornton, Marleau, Couture and Pavelski I'm all for it.

 

[icKx]

I think if Babcock doesn't come back we need someone different. Has McLellan really shown much in San Jose than Ron Wilson didn't?

This organization likes known commodities though.

Besides, he would be taking over a vastly different roster from '08; plenty of fresh ears in the room.

 

[Heaton]

This organization likes known commodities though.

Besides, he would be taking over a vastly different roster from '08; plenty of fresh ears in the room.

And that's a problem. The organization liking known commodities is why this team still has Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Quincey. And why Cleary will be back next year.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Holland has made 1 impact trade during the past decade which was a no-risk deal to get Stuart. In the past 5 years he's lost half his blueline and replace them with nothing. He's watched teams like Pittsburgh, Boston and Philly make impact trades and signings and Holland hasn't shown any ability or desperation to build this team. Yes he was in on Nash, Weber and Suter, but so were other teams.

He's given his coach little to nothing to work with and while that doesn't excuse Babcock's decisions it definitely limits them. The idea that Babcock's grade would go from a C or D to an A by playing Tatar or Nyquist with Datsyuk and not playing Lashoff is silly. Give Babcock some real options with real impact players. Tatar and Nyquist will help this team now, but there should've been way more than just them. And that problem has been apparent for a lot longer than Babcock playing Cleary and Abdelkader with Datsyuk.

BINGO, finally someone tells the truth

Holland needs to grow some balls and make a move, a bold move, that signals we want to win again, today, tomorrow and for years to come.

Either that or its time to step down

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If McLellan can bring over Thornton, Marleau, Couture and Pavelski I'm all for it.

Yeah because winning with guys like Lidstrom and Datsyuk that had cups before he got here and tons of talent doesn't require some luck eh?

I mean I realize you are a big Babcock guy, but did you just downgrade McLellan like that, like the Wings didn't have talent in those matchups.

I still struggle to see how you can deny that the special teams have been in a spiral since he left... Guess we are putting that on Holland, but oddly enough Babcock and his other assistants had a lot of the same talent sitting around for a couple years and still the decline. I think McLellan was very important to Babcock, it has proved out in a pretty large way. Both are good coaches, but McLellan helps the offense and isn't just a chip and chase bump and grind guy. He fits what we are about a little more. Oddly enough he has a team that Babcock would be almost better with also. A bunch of big bodies that should play more direct, safe and slow brand of hockey, but don't.

 

[TatarTangle]

In before someone tells someone "you're just some random d00d on the internet, WTF do you know about coaching?!?"

 

[odin1981]

Renney is exactly what you DON'T want. Dude got the Edmonton job handed to him on a silver platter after a one year apprentiship under Quinn and wore out his welcome after a year. He's not the person you want in charge with a young team.

Renney is the genius guiding our power play at the moment, need I say more?

He also didn't have a full preseason to implement anything either. In addition to any chance of him bringing up a change to a system that we no longer have a roster to use effectively. As well as Babs being notorious for not changing anything and he has always preached to a major degree the system we use on other teams he has coached as far as the powerplay goes.

 

[Heaton]

Yeah because winning with guys like Lidstrom and Datsyuk that had cups before he got here and tons of talent doesn't require some luck eh?

I mean I realize you are a big Babcock guy, but did you just downgrade McLellan like that, like the Wings didn't have talent in those matchups.

I still struggle to see how you can deny that the special teams have been in a spiral since he left... Guess we are putting that on Holland, but oddly enough Babcock and his other assistants had a lot of the same talent sitting around for a couple years and still the decline. I think McLellan was very important to Babcock, it has proved out in a pretty large way. Both are good coaches, but McLellan helps the offense and isn't just a chip and chase bump and grind guy. He fits what we are about a little more. Oddly enough he has a team that Babcock would be almost better with also. A bunch of big bodies that should play more direct, safe and slow brand of hockey, but don't.

Look at who McLellan had when he was here to work with and then look to see what has happened to Babcock's roster since McLellan left. San Jose is 3rd worst in goals per game this year btw.

He's a good coach, I just don't see him as the right guy to bring in if we don't bring Babcock back.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Holland has made 1 impact trade during the past decade which was a no-risk deal to get Stuart. In the past 5 years he's lost half his blueline and replace them with nothing. He's watched teams like Pittsburgh, Boston and Philly make impact trades and signings and Holland hasn't shown any ability or desperation to build this team. Yes he was in on Nash, Weber and Suter, but so were other teams.

He's given his coach little to nothing to work with and while that doesn't excuse Babcock's decisions it definitely limits them. The idea that Babcock's grade would go from a C or D to an A by playing Tatar or Nyquist with Datsyuk and not playing Lashoff is silly. Give Babcock some real options with real impact players. Tatar and Nyquist will help this team now, but there should've been way more than just them. And that problem has been apparent for a lot longer than Babcock playing Cleary and Abdelkader with Datsyuk.

I hate when people compare this team to 5 years ago. 5 years ago couldn't have played out any better for this organization. The team was peaking in terms of having a roster full of player that were more valuable than their contracts and having arguably 3 of the top 10 players in the NHL. In any world, let alone a salary cap world, it's simply unrealistic to expect to have that type of roster year in and year out. Team's are going to go through ups and downs in this current league and cap world. That's the whole point of parity unfortunately. GM's moves are even more significant to an organization in this era because you have less "toss away" moves that you can easily discard. Making big moves doesn't always work out. How's that working out for Philly? Holland and Illitch went hard after Suter (which was the same move I've wanted done to help replace Lidstrom since 2011) and missed. It happens - you don't get everything you want. They still have a team that is and should be fighting for a playoff spot in a league that has shown making the playoffs gives you a chance. This isn't the NBA. Unexpected teams go on playoff runs all the time so maintaining a playoff level while figuring out your future plans is key.

Babcock's job is not complaining about not having enough pieces. Babcock's job is making the most of the pieces you have, period. And in that regard he has done a piss poor job this season. He obviously plays favorites, is inconsistent with young players, and has made some decisions that have been nothing short of head scratching.

I've hated some of Holland's moves, but giving Babcock a free pass is a joke. He's been terrible.

 

[Ricelund]

Holland has made 1 impact trade during the past decade which was a no-risk deal to get Stuart. In the past 5 years he's lost half his blueline and replace them with nothing. He's watched teams like Pittsburgh, Boston and Philly make impact trades and signings and Holland hasn't shown any ability or desperation to build this team. Yes he was in on Nash, Weber and Suter, but so were other teams.

He's given his coach little to nothing to work with and while that doesn't excuse Babcock's decisions it definitely limits them. The idea that Babcock's grade would go from a C or D to an A by playing Tatar or Nyquist with Datsyuk and not playing Lashoff is silly. Give Babcock some real options with real impact players. Tatar and Nyquist will help this team now, but there should've been way more than just them. And that problem has been apparent for a lot longer than Babcock playing Cleary and Abdelkader with Datsyuk.

This.

Renney will be the next head coach by the way.

 

[Heaton]

I hate when people compare this team to 5 years ago. 5 years ago couldn't have played out any better for this organization. The team was peaking in terms of having a roster full of player that were more valuable than their contracts and having arguably 3 of the top 10 players in the NHL. In any world, let alone a salary cap world, it's simply unrealistic to expect to have that type of roster year in and year out. Team's are going to go through ups and downs in this current league and cap world. That's the whole point of parity unfortunately. GM's moves are even more significant to an organization in this era because you have less "toss away" moves that you can easily discard. Making big moves doesn't always work out. How's that working out for Philly? Holland and Illitch went hard after Suter (which was the same move I've wanted done to help replace Lidstrom since 2011) and missed. It happens - you don't get everything you want. They still have a team that is and should be fighting for a playoff spot in a league that has shown making the playoffs gives you a chance. This isn't the NBA. Unexpected teams go on playoff runs all the time so maintaining a playoff level while figuring out your future plans is key.

Babcock's job is not complaining about not having enough pieces. Babcock's job is making the most of the pieces you have, period. And in that regard he has done a piss poor job this season. He obviously plays favorites, is inconsistent with young players, and has made some decisions that have been nothing short of head scratching.

I've hated some of Holland's moves, but giving Babcock a free pass is a joke. He's been terrible.

I'm not giving Babcock a pass, but a coach is only as good as the talent his GM gives him. Scotty Bowman is the best coach ever and it's not a coincidence that he also coached the best talent ever.

Teams go through ups and downs, but how has Holland improved the roster since adding Hossa in 2009? It's 2013 and this team has gotten worse every year.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I'm not giving Babcock a pass, but a coach is only as good as the talent his GM gives him. Scotty Bowman is the best coach ever and it's not a coincidence that he also coached the best talent ever.

Teams go through ups and downs, but how has Holland improved the roster since adding Hossa in 2009? It's 2013 and this team has gotten worse every year.

Once again, it would have been impossible and unrealistic to improve upon 2009s roster. You can argue that Hossa should have been kept, but I don't think it was realistic at the time considering the way Franzen was playing and the depth that Hossa potentially would have taken away from. Hindsight obviously has changed that, but at the time it was different and you know that.

 

[Heaton]

Once again, it would have been impossible and unrealistic to improve upon 2009s roster. You can argue that Hossa should have been kept, but I don't think it was realistic at the time considering the way Franzen was playing and the depth that Hossa potentially would have taken away from. Hindsight obviously has changed that, but at the time it was different and you know that.

I'm not sure I get your point. The quality of the roster has gotten worse every year since the last finals appearance. I'm not expecting the Wings to have kept up that pace but look at a team like the Penguins, they'd had some down years, but they've reloaded and look like they're ready for another run.

Simple question: what has Holland actually accomplished since our last finals appearance? I'm not talking about assembling a 2009 style roster, I'm just talking about actually doing something to to try and replace pieces leaving. Is Rafalski, Stuart and Lidstrom leaving and replacing them with Quincey, Ian White and Colaiacovo acceptable?

Fire Babcock if it'll help the team, but what do you expect another coach to do with this roster?

 

[Syckle78]

Both Holland and Babcock are at fault.

Holland hasn't delivered the talent needed and been loyal to the wrong guys.

Babcock has made questionable decisions using what he has. Special teams have been bad and we have sucked on the road for two years now. That's on the coach.

The players for the most part haven't been much better. Too much inconsistent effort, too many mistakes, bad decisions and not doing what it takes night in and night out.


No one should be getting a pass here. The problem is from the top down. The team needs a shakeup. Babcock being replaced is a start. Not because he is a bad coach, but because he's a bad fit. That's only going to go so far though if Holland stays on the same track he has been on for three years.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Both Holland and Babcock are at fault.

Holland hasn't delivered the talent needed and been loyal to the wrong guys.

Babcock has made questionable decisions using what he has. Special teams have been bad and we have sucked on the road for two years now. That's on the coach.

The players for the most part haven't been much better. Too much inconsistent effort, too many mistakes, bad decisions and not doing what it takes night in and night out.


No one should be getting a pass here. The problem is from the top down. The team needs a shakeup. Babcock being replaced is a start. Not because he is a bad coach, but because he's a bad fit. That's only going to go so far though if Holland stays on the same track he has been on for three years.

All I can really say is that it would be a loss to have Babcock coach somewhere else. He's won at every level. If he ended up coaching at Michigan I have no doubt in my mind he'd add an NCAA title to his list of championships won.

Ken Holland? He could step down tonight and I honestly don't think the Detroit Red Wings miss a beat. In the 8 years since the salary cap was implemented Holland has two moves to his credit:

• Trading for Brad Stuart in a trade that didn't require us to trade a single roster player.
• Acquiring Brian Rafalski - who hails from Dearborn - when he hit free agency.

Who decides whether our younger players get called up? Ken Holland. Babcock has no say, as he indicated when he said he wanted Smith up last season. I'm not suggesting Holland should be fired, I am suggesting he get Jimmy Devallano'd and get moved up in the organization. He no longer manages the organization; he's a glorified accountant. We lose Lidstrom, Chelios, Schneider and Rafalski and he replaces them with Kyle Quincey? That's his big move?

He literally is a deer in the headlights, petrified of making any move other than the safest move possible, acquiring the guys (Sammy, Q, Conklin) who got away. I'm seriously not impressed.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I can't believe people continue to think we lose anything if Babcock leaves.

He can't win here with his group anymore..

HE'S DONE.

TIme for his next job.

That's HOW COACHING WORKS