More Speculation About Babcock's Future

[sureWhyNot]

Haha you want to argue that Brunner and Nyquist are on the same level at this point?

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Haha you want to argue that Brunner and Nyquist are on the same level at this point?

Of strength. Or is small/weak only a problem in certain cases? That sounds a lot like Babcock. Tatar and Nyquist are too weak to be trusted defensively, but Brunner, who's just as weak, is somehow not a problem that way.

MOD

You don't think the teams are a little different? One had several teams for the ages, perennial cup contenders with lists of hall-of-famers longer than any team in this era will ever see. Bowman went out on a high note. The other now has... what? A team that will scrape in at 6th or 7th in the West, maybe? A team that might not be in the playoff picture next year.

I wouldn't want Bowman developing my young talent and I don't want Babcock doing it either. They're prime time coaches. They take a talented-but-unstructured team of guys roughly in their prime and turn them into a disciplined machine capable of winning series. Maybe this particular team can still respond to that. But in not much time at all, this will be a young team again and they'll need to be shown the ropes. Babcock is not the guy to do that.

 

[detredWINgs]

You have ZERO CLUE about the morale in the locker room. I remember the exact same BS argument when Bowman was here and the rifts with players. Then again with Babcock when he got here.

It's not the coaches job to be the players friends. Throughout Bowman's career the players him didn't like him. You want to cry, find an assistant coach.

Ummm...that wasn't BS. Tons of players had issues with Bowman over the years. He was not in any way a players coach. That's basically why Dave Lewis had a job for so long - to act as the buffer between Bowman and the players.

 

[SoupGuru]

Look at this team since the Ilitches bought them. They have done everything to make sure the team has a solid foundation. They treat loyal former players like royalty. They run one of the classiest organizations in sports. They value sportsmanship. They created the Wings that we see today.

Everything I've seen over the decades has been that Red Wings put their team first. Above all, put the team first.

I just don't see a couple of whiny players running off a coach. Not with this organization. I don't see any second guessing of the coach being tolerated. I don't see any second guessing of anyone in the organization being tolerated. Maybe I'm off, but it seems pretty counter to what my perceptions of the Ilitches are.

 

[Frk It]

Look at this team since the Ilitches bought them. They have done everything to make sure the team has a solid foundation. They treat loyal former players like royalty. They run one of the classiest organizations in sports. They value sportsmanship. They created the Wings that we see today.

That's a great atmosphere to create and maintain as long as you are winning, which we have been. But that kind of attitude on a bubble team or re-building team can be very counter-productive.

edit: I'm referencing the whole loyalty and country-club vibe.

 

[detredWINgs]

Look at this team since the Ilitches bought them. They have done everything to make sure the team has a solid foundation. They treat loyal former players like royalty. They run one of the classiest organizations in sports. They value sportsmanship. They created the Wings that we see today.

Everything I've seen over the decades has been that Red Wings put their team first. Above all, put the team first.

I just don't see a couple of whiny players running off a coach. Not with this organization. I don't see any second guessing of the coach being tolerated. I don't see any second guessing of anyone in the organization being tolerated. Maybe I'm off, but it seems pretty counter to what my perceptions of the Ilitches are.

That's nice and all, but they aren't oblivious. Dave Lewis was with this organization for over a decade and was let go after 2 seasons behind the bench, despite back-to-back 48 win seasons, a president's trophy, 2 first place central finishes, and actually improving his playoff record from his first to second year behind the bench.

The organization isn't going to give Babcock a pat on the back if the Wings are ousted in the first round again and Babcock's playoff record continues to spiral into the toilet.

 

[InjuredChoker]

That's nice and all, but they aren't oblivious. Dave Lewis was with this organization for over a decade and was let go after 2 seasons behind the bench, despite back-to-back 48 win seasons, a president's trophy, 2 first place central finishes, and actually improving his playoff record from his first to second year behind the bench.

The organization isn't going to give Babcock a pat on the back if the Wings are ousted in the first round again and Babcock's playoff record continues to spiral into the toilet.

Then there was better option available; Babcock.

Who would be better option right now?

 

[detredWINgs]

Then there was better option available; Babcock.

Who would be better option right now?

"Better" is relative. Babcock had a whopping 2 years of NHL experience and was coming off of an amazing 29 win 76 point season when he was signed by the Wings. But they needed a hard-ass coach - not a players coach, and he was a good fit for that.

You don't always change coaches to get someone "better" - you change coaches to get someone different.

At any rate, this whole "who else is there?!?!?" strawman argument is, like all such arguments, bogus. There will be guys fired or let go in the off-season, there are AHL options (which is what Babcock was), there are current NHL assistant coaches who want to be the boss (see McLellan, MacLean), and there are guys treading water waiting for the call as we speak (Ruff).

 

[SoupGuru]

That's nice and all, but they aren't oblivious. Dave Lewis was with this organization for over a decade and was let go after 2 seasons behind the bench, despite back-to-back 48 win seasons, a president's trophy, 2 first place central finishes, and actually improving his playoff record from his first to second year behind the bench.

The organization isn't going to give Babcock a pat on the back if the Wings are ousted in the first round again and Babcock's playoff record continues to spiral into the toilet.

I was more thinking of player dissatisfaction or "losing the room". Coaching changes come down from on high. I don't get the impression the management spends a whole lot of time concerned if the players have some gripes or not.

I just don't buy the idea that the players are agitating for a change.

 

[FlashyG]

I keep hearing it on this board about extending Babcock or not resigning him... Why does this keep being brought up? It's not an issue for two more years.

"In October 2010, Babcock signed a further four-year extension with the Red Wings that will see him through to the end of the 2014-15 season"

I think the reasoning is that its unlikely he'll be extended when his deal ends, and its also unlikely he'd want to coach the final year of his contract as a lame duck coach. If he's not extended before the final year of his deal, he would probably leave of his own choosing.

Bryan Murray drafted most of our elite talent, along with much of the elite talent in Anaheim and Ottawa.

Either you're wrong or we have a different opinion of who our elite talent is/was.

Bryan Murray was with the team for 3 and a half years and likely only in charge of the draft for 2 of those, but giving him the benefit of the doubt for the whole time he was with the team the best players he drafted were Keith Primeau and Chris Osgood.

Considering Primeau was picked with the 3rd overall pick, and that Murray had almost 50 picks over his short stint as GM I think just about any GM in history could have duplicated his "success" he had in charge of the Wings.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Bryan Murray?
Lordy.

I will agree that he deserves a bit more credit than he's received in the Wings' history books.
Datsyuk is 34 and he was drafted by Holland.
Are there any Bryan Murray Wings picks still in the NHL?


1990 (Was Murray GM for the draft?)
Primeau, Kozlov, Jason York
1991
Lapointe, Pushor, Osgood, Knuble
1992
McCarty, McGillis
1993
Anders Eriksson
94 (Not sure if he was still GM for the draft)
Dandenault, Holmstrom

 

[RedWingsNow*]

"Better" is relative. Babcock had a whopping 2 years of NHL experience and was coming off of an amazing 29 win 76 point season when he was signed by the Wings. But they needed a hard-ass coach - not a players coach, and he was a good fit for that.

You don't always change coaches to get someone "better" - you change coaches to get someone different.

At any rate, this whole "who else is there?!?!?" strawman argument is, like all such arguments, bogus. There will be guys fired or let go in the off-season, there are AHL options (which is what Babcock was), there are current NHL assistant coaches who want to be the boss (see McLellan, MacLean), and there are guys treading water waiting for the call as we speak (Ruff).

Bingo.

 

[HTT3*]

Yeah. That's your problem. You're not watching the games.

Tatar has been more than adequate to replace guys like Cleary, Abby, Miller, Eaves, Tootoo. He's faster, better hands, he's not slouch on defense. Your "size" argument exists only in the vacuum of height and weight numbers. It doesn't exist when you look at how strong they are on their skates and on the puck. Tatar is as strong on the puck as any of those players I mentioned.


Scoring goals? What about speed? Cleary is slow as hell. What about hockey sense? Cleary has none. Tatar makes things happen even if he's not scoring. Cleary has killed every line he's moved to. Tatar is a superior player to Cleary in every single way expect the number next to his height stat. And only idiots would use that as a reason to keep Cleary in over Tatar when our best players are small guys like Datsyuk, Zetterberg.


Except your argument of "They get paid big money to do this job" applies to every single person in management for every single team. Are you saying that every GM in the league is beyond blame by the fans? They have more qualifications, experience than 99% of the fanbase, and they get paid the money. And your argument that this makes them beyond criticism by anyone on the internet is just stupid. We are not people without any knowledge of hockey. We've all been watching and/or playing for decades. A lot of us even watch the prospects play. A better comparison would be an experienced nurse or paralegal pointing out something that the doctor or lawyer has overlooked. Happens all the time.

You should try arguing the merits, instead of just saying "They're completely beyond criticism. Period."

The merits are not on your side. Nyquist, and especially Tatar, have excelled at every level. Tatar has been superb in the AHL for a good 2-3 years now. He put up a good number of points while he was up with the Wings. More than any of our other grinders and in less games. That includes Abby who was playing top6 minutes.

But you don't want to talk about that. Because Babcock and Holland are "brilliant," "geniuses" and cannot be criticized. Screw the facts! You can't criticize them!

(That genius and brilliance by the way, has been unable to progress past the second round for three years in a row and got trounced by the Preds in only 5 games last year. If only other teams were able to have such genius at their disposal.)

Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals and 91 points in the OHL, quick someone induct him in the HOF!!!1!!1

Yeah what they did in the AHL is fine and dandy, but AHL is the boys league. i am season ticket holder for the Griffins', they are impressive against low level talent. But if when you watch them in the NHL, they don't impress much. They show flashes, but so did Jason Williams and Jonathan Cheechoo.

There's a reason why they are not full time NHLers, they aren't ready.

 

[Reality Check]

Saw this from another thread.
A twitter conversation between former WDFN and Toronto Fan 590 Host Greg Brady and Detroit Sports Rag editor Jeff Moss...


I can't be the only one thinking it ends this summer, amicably for Mike Babcock & the Red Wings. A fantastic coach but it might be best.
— Greg Brady (@bradyfan590) March 21, 2013
@bradyfan590 not sure why you think it is going to amicable.But it is inevitable.
— Jeff Moss (@JeffMossDSR) March 21, 2013
@dkingbh I'm saying Babcock wants to go.....
— Greg Brady (@bradyfan590) March 21, 2013
@jeffmossdsr I just don't think it'll be painted as "Wings Fire Babcock"....
— Greg Brady (@bradyfan590) March 21, 2013
@bradyfan590 it will be PR.But there has been a Holland/Babcock rift for awhile.And 13 @ 40 are trough with him also.
— Jeff Moss (@JeffMossDSR) March 21, 2013
@bradyfan590 There is a well informed rumor he might want the Michigan job in 2015. Not just pie in the sky either.
— Craig D. Barker (@cdbarker) March 21, 2013


http://redwingsnow.com/coach-babcock/are-babcocks-days-numbered-detroit

Lol...Jeff Moss is such a turd

Everyone [mod] knows all coaches wear out their welcome eventually and Babcock will move on.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Kirk Maltby scored 50 goals and 91 points in the OHL, quick someone induct him in the HOF!!!1!!1

Yeah what they did in the AHL is fine and dandy, but AHL is the boys league. i am season ticket holder for the Griffins', they are impressive against low level talent. But if when you watch them in the NHL, they don't impress much. They show flashes, but so did Jason Williams and Jonathan Cheechoo.

There's a reason why they are not full time NHLers, they aren't ready.

These people never projected to the levels and abilities that Nyquist and Tatar projected to. Also, Jordan Cheechoo is a Richard winner, and a was a damn good goal scorer. His career died because of piling injuries. Not a good example. Finally, as many have pointed out to you before. Nyquist and Tatar have dominated at every level before the NHL, and neither have been given a fair opportunity to succeed at the NHL level. Tatar, given minimal opportunity, was very good in his brief stint here, and as others have repeatedly pointed out to you, is much better than most of the plugs in our bottom 6. Nyquist has shown flashes of brilliance in even less time than Tatar. Everyone wants them on the team because they've indicated that they deserve to be here.

 

[Crymson]

That's nice and all, but they aren't oblivious. Dave Lewis was with this organization for over a decade and was let go after 2 seasons behind the bench, despite back-to-back 48 win seasons, a president's trophy, 2 first place central finishes, and actually improving his playoff record from his first to second year behind the bench.

The organization isn't going to give Babcock a pat on the back if the Wings are ousted in the first round again and Babcock's playoff record continues to spiral into the toilet.

Dave Lewis failed to win with Red Wings teams that were full to the brim with all-stars and future HoFers. His teams were completely ineffective in the playoffs in spite of the huge amount of firepower they had. Back then, the Wings could spend money in a way that enabled them to do what they wished, and the expectations were accordingly rather high---certainly higher than what Lewis's teams reached. In the cap era, great success on a consistent basis is implausible. The salary cap took away a big advantage that Bowman and Lewis had.

I look back and really, truly wish that Babcock would have been Bowman's successor. We very possibly could have seen three Cup wins in a row.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Lol...Jeff Moss is such a turd

Everyone [mod] knows all coaches wear out their welcome eventually and Babcock will move on.

He is.
I never realized it. But he's a first class turd.

 

[GT500x]

Dave Lewis failed to win with Red Wings teams that were full to the brim with all-stars and future HoFers. His teams were completely ineffective in the playoffs in spite of the huge amount of firepower they had. Back then, the Wings could spend money in a way that enabled them to do what they wished, and the expectations were accordingly rather high---certainly higher than what Lewis's teams reached. In the cap era, great success on a consistent basis is implausible. The salary cap took away a big advantage that Bowman and Lewis had.

I look back and really, truly wish that Babcock would have been Bowman's successor. We very possibly could have seen three Cup wins in a row.

We could have had two more during Babcock's tenure but our team choked against the Ducks and the Penguins.

 

[detredWINgs]

Dave Lewis failed to win with Red Wings teams that were full to the brim with all-stars and future HoFers. His teams were completely ineffective in the playoffs in spite of the huge amount of firepower they had. Back then, the Wings could spend money in a way that enabled them to do what they wished, and the expectations were accordingly rather high---certainly higher than what Lewis's teams reached. In the cap era, great success on a consistent basis is implausible. The salary cap took away a big advantage that Bowman and Lewis had.

I look back and really, truly wish that Babcock would have been Bowman's successor. We very possibly could have seen three Cup wins in a row.

Talk about the grass being greener. Babcock wouldn't have done jack **** with the clutch-and-grab era at its peak with that roster, unless you think Babcock's coaching somehow would've kept Datsyuk and Zetterberg from being rag-dolled without penalty by the likes of Mike Commodore and Jason Smith.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

We could have had two more during Babcock's tenure but our team choked against the Ducks and the Penguins.

Both those series, our team was laden with injuries.

 

[InjuredChoker]

Jack Todd @jacktodd46

& if you've had a peek at Babcock's book, you probably don't want him coaching the local mosquito team. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer

 

[SoupNazi]

And exactly what qualifies that Montreal columnist to make that call?

Reading his Twitter, he sounds sort of like a tool.

 

[GT500x]

Both those series, our team was laden with injuries.

All we had to do was close the deals on both. I can't accept injuries as an excuse.

 

[InjuredChoker]

And exactly what qualifies that Montreal columnist to make that call?

Reading his Twitter, he sounds sort of like a tool.

Part of what makes it so awesome.

 

[Heaton]

All we had to do was close the deals on both. I can't accept injuries as an excuse.

It's not an excuse, it's what happened.