More points this season Crosby vs Ovi

[Plural]

It’s funny how everyone try to discredit Crosby’s 06/07 season because he scored half of his points on the PP. Having more Powerplay in a season does help, but doesn’t guarantee one will benefit from it. You still need to score those damn points, they don’t magically appear on the scoresheet.

Mario Lemieux scored almost half of his points (49%) on the PP in the 95/96, do we hear people discredit his offense production for that season? Of course not

Absolutely yes. I mean, it's still a superb season by him but it's one of the main gripes about his production. It's not really said to be one of the absolute best seasons ever mainly because of how reliant he was on the PP.

 

[Regal]

Absolutely yes. I mean, it's still a superb season by him but it's one of the main gripes about his production. It's not really said to be one of the absolute best seasons ever mainly because of how reliant he was on the PP.

I would say as well that the season wasn't out of the norm for Lemieux on the PP, whereas '07 was for Crosby, which makes it seem more like puck luck to some degree.

 

[daver]

So now it's all about ES points?

Crosby - 748 ES points (0.81 ESPPG) in the regular season, 113 ES (0.71 ESPPG) in the playoffs

Ovechkin - 729 ES points (0.69 ESPPG) in the regular season, 67 ES (0.55 ESPPG) in the playoffs


And guess what happens to their GPGs when PP goals are removed?

Crosby (RS and POs) - 0.32 ESGPG

OV (RS and POs) - 0.37 ESGPG

 

[daver]

I would say as well that the season wasn't out of the norm for Lemieux on the PP, whereas '07 was for Crosby, which makes it seem more like puck luck to some degree.

It is more of an anomaly than anything. Crosby was the dominant ES scorer in the playoffs over his first five seasons while being the 2nd best ES scorer in the three seasons after 06/07.

His ESPPG during the next three seasons was off the charts. (1.12 ESPPG vs. 0.75 for the 2nd best).

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby finishes 17pts behind the leader: he was in ross contention

Ovechkin finishes 6pts behind the leader: he wasn't in ross contention

Exactly why it's pointless to argue with Crosby fans.

Scoring finishes since 2014

Crosby: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 10th
Ovechkin: 8th, 4th, 15th, 21th, 11th

One is not like the other.

Exactly why it’s pointless to argue with Ovechkin fans.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Scoring finishes since 2014

Crosby: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 10th
Ovechkin: 8th, 4th, 15th, 21th, 11th

One is not like the other.

Exactly why it’s pointless to argue with Ovechkin fans.

This has nothing to do with anything

 

[Nadal On Clay]

This has nothing to do with anything

Crosby has been a perennial Art-Ross contender for the past 5 years minus last year. OV hasn’t.

 

[K Fleur]

This has nothing to do with anything

It has a lot of relevance to the thread topic.

Not much relevance to your post that was quoted though.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You keep repeating this false narrative on something I didn't say.

I've pointed it out 3 times already so I will do so again.

you said this

So I replied with this​

see zero mention of Ovechkin as I was clearly replying to your "what did Crosby do in the playoffs (that was exactly what you were referring to in that sentence.



Well the quote is up there in bold to help you out and now are you asking for combined regular season and playoff?

If so it's probably pretty close, regular season it was Crosby as I have detailed upthread, playoffs it was Ovechkin



I guess the part in bold needs to be discounted because he was clutch now?

Well I posted number for the season since you were talking about the season, now this 41 half view and move the goal posts?



Does it really matter both guys had 21 points and yes that's what Crosby did in the playoffs, which was very impressive right?

I mean what else can you call a 12-9-12-21 plus 7 line in the playoffs?

Any time ever in the NHL?



Who is he and them? If he is Crosby yes and them is Alex added then no it's not really close at all.





I went over this in another post, of course Malkin and Kessel are going to do better feeding off each other at ES than Crosby playing with a rookie who had 41 less points than him.

I also explained that much of that difference was actually in PP production, not ES and looked at their complete games not just simple raw points without any extra context.



No you didn't say that Ovechkin was abeast, you said that he was better in the regular season and Even the playoffs, Ovechkin walked away with a cup and Smythe.

Why do you keep bringing up Jake Guentzel, I provided context with what Crosby did in the playoffs, bringing up Guenztal actually helps Crosby's case even more.

I'm not ignoring that jake was Crosby's winger so why say that?



Sure let's toss it out and you replace it with nothing and we all agree that you are right then?

Umm on second thought no.

It's actually only part of the argument but it's something that you don't like to bring up as it's hurts your case.



Crosby right now doesn't need elite line mates and never has.

Ovechkin has better linemates in Kuznetsov Backstrom plain and simple, neither of us know if he
(Ovechkin) needs them or not as he plays with one of them pretty much all of the time right now.

Do you really want to argue that Jake Guentzal is a better player than Backstrom or Kuznetsov?

I already told you, when I said what did Crosby do in the playoffs, I meant what did he accomplish compared to Ovechkin. Your the one insinuating that his accomplishments are equal or better than Ovechkins that year.

You just love manipulating the conversation, because once again everything I have argued....you continue to morph into something it’s not....let me break this down for you.

With Guenztel, let’s just clear the air here. You have repeatedly said how impressive Crosby was that playoffs, and how it’s close. Guenztel had the same production. All the context your adding doesn’t matter, Guenztel was just as impressive as Crosby, and by your logic....is on par with Ovechkin that year in the post season.

With Crosbys linemates. I never said he was a product of, or that his stats were boosted by his linemates....unlike you, who tries to pass off the idea that Ovechkin is all those due to have a better center. Only that having Malkin and Kessel on the same team has clearly been beneficial, especially when he wasn’t playing so good last season. Simple?

All in all....like I’ve told you. If the roles were reversed, I guarantee you would be saying the opposite. That’s how bias you are.

This is very ironic, something about the pot and kettle going on here.




Who know but what do know is that he is a much better player than Guentzal right?

Or is it a stretch to think that having a better line mate might just perhaps boost production?

Either way it probably doesn't matter as McDavid is is what 8 or 9 years younger than Crosby and forwards peak early.



I don't have a relationship to Crosby and don't infer one with you and Ovechkin, how about sticking to the actual discussion instead of trying to be cute?

I'm not some counter girl at Krispy Kreme donuts that you need to impress.

Crosby has and still has a great ability to play with pretty much anyone and he is more often than not the guy driving production and play, especially this year.

I pointed it out with CF%, you don't like it present something more than just one metric in goals, we can all agree that Ovechkin is the better goal scorer that's not up for debate..



I guess me and the Selke voters are imagining things.

Or the CF% stats are imaginary as well?

I would have to take alot of wetcoast herbage here to imagine that wildly around these parts.

Even then it's pretty clear that Crosby brings more to the table than Ovechkin does if we take away counting stats, right?

We both know the context behind the statement that was made about Ovechkin not being in Art Ross contention for NINE years, only to then change the idea of what contention is for Crosby. It’s been clear as day that their LAST Strong Art Ross contentions were compared. Crosby in 2017, and Ovechkin in 2015. Last time I checked, 2015 wasn’t nine years ago. Hopefully your fragile brain processes this because I find it annoying that I have to continue to explain something so idiot proof.

Better player/better linemate. Simple. Not every great player is going to automatically have chemistry with another. Unless your new to hockey. Everyone knows having stronger linemates boosted production, it’s the reliance of those linemates that your twisting around. Because once again you need to for your agenda.

More cute comments, love it.

Never said Crosby wasn’t. Another strawman your attempting to impose. Another nerve I hit given how sensitive you react to anything that is against him.

And CF% doesn’t tell the whole story does it? It isn’t the stat that is the end all-be all is it? But your basically saying that. “Ignore how bad his production was! Look at his CF%”

Yes keep clinging to a handful selke votes that give you the illusion that you need to tell yourself what you need convincing of. By the way, Ovechkin finished 9th in the Hart Race last year compared to Crosby’s 17th.....why isn’t that being taken into consideration? Do the Hart voters not know anything?

More strawman. Your way to sensitive.

Strawman

Strawman

Sure and just look at a single season rather than the 9 seasons.

You really are skipping over the fact that when Ovechkin finished 6 points behind Benn in 14-15, Crosby finished 3 points back in 4 less games played.

He had the mumps that year

Sidney Crosby diagnosed with mumps | CBC Sports

You need better arguments and facts, they aren't out there.

I’m going to explain this to you for the last time....

Crosby’s last “Art Ross contender” season was 2 years ago, Ovechkins was 4. It was said that Ovechkin hasn’t been a contender for NINE years, but 2015 wasn’t nine years ago. it was then mentioned that Ovechkins 4th place finish while being 6 points back WASNT contention....yet Crosby’s 2nd place at 11 points and 17 points was. That’s the hypocrisy that, although not shocking, is what we have been discussing.

You once again wasted this entire message writing nonsense that didn’t need to be said to prove a point that wasn’t even the point. I’m well aware Crosby was sick and most likely would have taken the scoring title, does that matter at all? Does it have anything to do with the conversation? NO. It’s just more random things you have to praise Crosby for that aren’t needed.

Good job.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Scoring finishes since 2014

Crosby: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 10th
Ovechkin: 8th, 4th, 15th, 21th, 11th

One is not like the other.

Exactly why it’s pointless to argue with Ovechkin fans.

I wish some of you would actually go back and read the original statements before chiming in and looking lost and confused.

This has nothing to do with what was said or discussed. Further more showing how much breaths is wasted on comments like this. You clearly have no clue what we were talking about.

Crosby has been a perennial Art-Ross contender for the past 5 years minus last year. OV hasn’t.

Again, has nothing to do with what was argued before. I only ask again that you actually go back and read rather than let your sensitivity get the best of you and a need to defend Crosby over something that wasn’t said.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby is ahead by 5 points.

Not going to waste any more time with people who clearly try to put words on my behalf here when it has been pointed out repeatedly (with provided quotations) that I had never said them but feel free to carry on and embarrass yourself, you know who you are and the thread has the documentation behind it.

 

[daver]

Scoring finishes since 2014

Crosby: 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 10th
Ovechkin: 8th, 4th, 15th, 21th, 11th

One is not like the other.

Exactly why it’s pointless to argue with Ovechkin fans.

OV fans prefer the term "goalless".

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby is ahead by 5 points.

Not going to waste any more time with people who clearly try to put words on my behalf here when it has been pointed out repeatedly (with provided quotations) that I had never said them but feel free to carry on and embarrass yourself, you know who you are and the thread has the documentation behind it.

You have been the king of strawmans this entire time. No one is putting words in your mouth, your literally making them up as you argue. Have a good day.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Crosby is ahead by 5 points.

Not going to waste any more time with people who clearly try to put words on my behalf here when it has been pointed out repeatedly (with provided quotations) that I had never said them but feel free to carry on and embarrass yourself, you know who you are and the thread has the documentation behind it.

Thankfully there's an ignore button for posters like GG. I dislike doing it, but when someone is repeatedly intellectually dishonest, there's no point in having those posts clutter up the thread.

 

[Koolboss]

OV is a great player and plays wing, Crosby is great player playing center. Overall better complete player Crosby no doubt.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Thankfully there's an ignore button for posters like GG. I dislike doing it, but when someone is repeatedly intellectually dishonest, there's no point in having those posts clutter up the thread.

Would love your proof on where I was “intellectually dishonest.” In fact, I would love your idea of what that even means to you, considering your intellectual expertise...

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I wish some of you would actually go back and read the original statements before chiming in and looking lost and confused.

This has nothing to do with what was said or discussed. Further more showing how much breaths is wasted on comments like this. You clearly have no clue what we were talking about.

Again, has nothing to do with what was argued before. I only ask again that you actually go back and read rather than let your sensitivity get the best of you and a need to defend Crosby over something that wasn’t said.

Did you read the thread title?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Did you read the thread title?

Did you bother to go back and read the original argument that your quoting? Hint....Has nothing to do with the title.

 

[wetcoast]

Thankfully there's an ignore button for posters like GG. I dislike doing it, but when someone is repeatedly intellectually dishonest, there's no point in having those posts clutter up the thread.

As a defender of free speech, I'm extremely reluctant to use the ignore button myself but each unto their own I guess.

And I agree it's the "id" that's the problem and the total mischaracterization of something I never ever said in this thread that irks me.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Did you bother to go back and read the original argument that your quoting? Hint....Has nothing to do with the title.

I was referring to his “It’s pointless to argue with Crosby fans”. Thought it was pretty obvious. There is literally nothing that pushes posters to vote OV in this poll, unless they think Crosby will miss games. The last time Ovechkin outscored an healthy Crosby was in 2009, which is only 10 years ago. Yet I still see Caps fans arguing over this.

Is it me or I always need to explain myself with you? Read between the lines.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I was referring to his “It’s pointless to argue with Crosby fans”. Thought it was pretty obvious. There is literally nothing that pushes posters to vote OV in this poll, unless they think Crosby will miss games. The last time Ovechkin outscored an healthy Crosby was in 2009, which is only 10 years ago. Yet I still see Caps fans arguing over this.

Is it me or I always need to explain myself with you? Read between the lines.

He was right though, It is pointless. You guys like to change the standards and move goal posts all the time. Did you bother reading the context of his post? Nope. The only thing that is obvious is you not having any idea what we were referring to.

This isn’t about when he out scored Crosby, or how many times. This isn’t even about him and Crosby. Do I honestly need to explain something that you should have already known?

 

[Varan]

the same posters, same arguments, same conclusions. this is tiring

y'all aren't even answering the poll question. this thread is pitiful

edit: as an aside, why do you crosby fans get so defensive whenever OV and point totals are brought in the same sentence as crosby? everyone knows he is a better point producer than OV and has been better at it than OV for the past decade minus 2-3 seasons. no ovechkin fan is trying to discredit that so why do you people get so emotional. it's cut and dry yet here we are.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

He was right though, It is pointless. You guys like to change the standards and move goal posts all the time. Did you bother reading the context of his post? Nope. The only thing that is obvious is you not having any idea what we were referring to.

This isn’t about when he out scored Crosby, or how many times. This isn’t even about him and Crosby. Do I honestly need to explain something that you should have already known?

I don’t bother reading the context of his posts since it reeks blind homerism 80% of the time. I found his last sentence quite funny because there is actually one good answer and one bad answer in this “debate”, yet he accuses the people with the good answer of being homers and fully biased.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don’t bother reading the context of his posts since it reeks blind homerism 80% of the time. I found his last sentence quite funny because there is actually one good answer and one bad answer in this “debate”, yet he accuses the people with the good answer of being homers and fully biased.

So basically you got offended by his last sentence and thought, doesn’t matter what he’s talking about, I’m going to call him out because I’m hurt.

Here’s the deal. I believe Ageless mentioned that Ovechkin hasn’t been in Art Ross contention in 9 years....9. While Crosby was just 2 seasons ago. Problem with that? He finished 4th in 2015 while being 6 points back from the leader, and 2015 wasn’t nine ago. He then acknowledged that Crosby was 11 and 21 points Behind first the last 2 times he was “in contention.” Yet he doesn’t acknowledge that being 6 points behind the leader is closer than 21 and 11. Basically implementing his bias definition of contention is, which is ridiculous. Ovechkin and Crosby were 3 points apart that year, both were in the hunt. Was Crosby more? Yes. That was never disputed.

No one argued Ovechkin being ahead of Crosby in 2015. No one argued that Ovechkin had more seasons as a scoring contender, or even that he had the most recent. Only that he was still within the scoring leader more ways than not in 2015 and that was his most recent.

This was explained, but you...among others are somewhat impulsive when it comes to anything Crosby, and feel the need to lash out first and ask questions later. I hope this is easily understandable, if not then I’m at a lost for you.

 

[illpucks]

So basically you got offended by his last sentence and thought, doesn’t matter what he’s talking about, I’m going to call him out because I’m hurt.

Here’s the deal. I believe Ageless mentioned that Ovechkin hasn’t been in Art Ross contention in 9 years....9. While Crosby was just 2 seasons ago. Problem with that? He finished 4th in 2015 while being 6 points back from the leader, and 2015 wasn’t nine ago. He then acknowledged that Crosby was 11 and 21 points Behind first the last 2 times he was “in contention.” Yet he doesn’t acknowledge that being 6 points behind the leader is closer than 21 and 11. Basically implementing his bias definition of contention is, which is ridiculous. Ovechkin and Crosby were 3 points apart that year, both were in the hunt. Was Crosby more? Yes. That was never disputed.

No one argued Ovechkin being ahead of Crosby in 2015. No one argued that Ovechkin had more seasons as a scoring contender, or even that he had the most recent. Only that he was still within the scoring leader more ways than not in 2015 and that was his most recent.

This was explained, but you...among others are somewhat impulsive when it comes to anything Crosby, and feel the need to lash out first and ask questions later. I hope this is easily understandable, if not then I’m at a lost for you.

Pretty sure consensus was Ovi > Sid in 2015.