More likely to win an NHL scoring title - Matthews or Marner?

[StoneHands]

I mean I get everyone wants to talk about the leafs, good or bad, because they're the centre of the hockey universe. It would be nice if half the polls weren't leaf based. A lot of them are not even created by leaf fans. Other players and teams deserve more recognition IMO.

You probably should have posted this in a thread that wasn't started by a Leafs fan.

 

[Cup or Bust]

There is no reason to believe either will based on their performances so far. Very good players, but neither have not shown that level of ability yet.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

All a playmaker can do is give frequent and good scoring opportunities for his linemates, and Matthews does that pretty well. He's a very good passer, albeit not elite at this point. He can't force Hyman and Nylander to finish though. He also can't force Hyman to become a primary contributer on a scoring play with enough frequency to rack up secondary assists

But that's kind of the point. Yes, linemates will affect ultimate totals, but it shouldn't essentially be the magic wand to explain away why Matthews still hasn't surpassed 29 assists or on pace for less than 40 assists, if his playmaking is as good as some insist.

Case in point, in 2015-16, Crosby was still able to register 49 assists despite being saddled with the ghost of Chris Kunitz as his most common linemate that season. Kunitz's production was no better than Hyman's that year, and his overall effectiveness at finishing chances was about the same.

I'm not trying to rag on Matthews' playmaking here, but I do think Hyman being used as the main reason his assist totals are really low for a supposed good playmaker is getting overplayed. Other players have been saddled with less-than-stellar finishers (Crosby, Malkin, McDavid) but that didn't result in them struggling to register 30+ assists.

 

[Skolman]

I mean I get everyone wants to talk about the leafs, good or bad, because they're the centre of the hockey universe. It would be nice if half the polls weren't leaf based. A lot of them are not even created by leaf fans. Other players and teams deserve more recognition IMO.

The heavy majority of them are started by your fellow Leafs fans

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

But that's kind of the point. Yes, linemates will affect ultimate totals, but it shouldn't essentially be the magic wand to explain away why Matthews still hasn't surpassed 29 assists or on pace for less than 40 assists, if his playmaking is as good as some insist.

Case in point, in 2015-16, Crosby was still able to register 49 assists despite being saddled with the ghost of Chris Kunitz as his most common linemate that season. Kunitz's production was no better than Hyman's that year, and his overall effectiveness at finishing chances was about the same.

I'm not trying to rag on Matthews' playmaking here, but I do think Hyman being used as the main reason his assist totals are really low for a supposed good playmaker is getting overplayed. Other players have been saddled with less-than-stellar finishers (Crosby, Malkin, McDavid) but that didn't result in them struggling to register 30+ assists.

Crosby had 32 assists at 5v5, 20 were primary. Matthews was on pace for 25, 18 primary. considering Crosby is probably the greatest playmaker of the generation, I feel comfortable saying that Matthews is a great, but not elite passer

 

[X66]

it's amazing how some of you make up the most absurd excuses, even after proven wrong.

What are you talking about?

That poster wasn't even talking to me.

I'm just stating that Hyman is better on the right side, and should be their permanently, with our without Matthews...

Learn to read.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Crosby had 32 assists at 5v5, 20 were primary. Matthews was on pace for 25, 18 primary. considering Crosby is probably the greatest playmaker of the generation, I feel comfortable saying that Matthews is a great, but not elite passer

When we're talking about pure playmaking, why are we omitting PP assists and secondary assists? Part of the argument in Matthews' defense is Hyman keeps him from getting secondary assists. Why doesn't Crosby have the same issue when Kunitz is dragging him down? And shouldn't Matthews be racking up more assists on the PP when he doesn't have to worry about passing to Hyman?

Until he shows otherwise, I'd rank Matthews more as a good passer than a great one. Maybe that's just arguing semantics and we're essentially saying the same thing. But I think he's the type of guy who'll probably be in the 40-45 assist range for most of his career, with a couple of peak seasons of 50+, rather than someone who'll average in the 50 range, with peak seasons above 60+.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

When we're talking about pure playmaking, why are we omitting PP assists and secondary assists? Part of the argument in Matthews' defense is Hyman keeps him from getting secondary assists. Why doesn't Crosby have the same issue when Kunitz is dragging him down? And shouldn't Matthews be racking up more assists on the PP when he doesn't have to worry about passing to Hyman?

Until he shows otherwise, I'd rank Matthews more as a good passer than a great one. Maybe that's just arguing semantics and we're essentially saying the same thing. But I think he's the type of guy who'll probably be in the 40-45 assist range for most of his career, with a couple of peak seasons of 50+, rather than someone who'll average in the 50 range, with peak seasons above 60+.

I wasn't trying to omit secondary assists. I listed the totals, although I feel like primary assists are a better indication of pure passing ability. but if you want to go with the powerplay, Matthews had 8 assists in 132 powerplay minutes, and Crosby had 14 in 289 minutes. I don't think that's super meaningful though. As for good vs great, it really depends on your personal view I guess

 

[6ix]

You probably should have posted this in a thread that wasn't started by a Leafs fan.

You probably should realize he’s a sabres fan, are you that lazy that you can’t at least do your due diligence before posting this stupid reply?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I wasn't trying to omit secondary assists. I listed the totals, although I feel like primary assists are a better indication of pure passing ability. but if you want to go with the powerplay, Matthews had 8 assists in 132 powerplay minutes, and Crosby had 14 in 289 minutes. I don't think that's super meaningful though. As for good vs great, it really depends on your personal view I guess

What assist range do you see Matthews producing at regularly in his prime? Not necessarily his peak season, but over say a 5 or 6 year prime span, more often than not he'll finish with what range of assists?

 

[StoneHands]

You probably should realize he’s a sabres fan, are you that lazy that you can’t at least do your due diligence before posting this stupid reply?

How silly of my to think a guy with a Leaf's player's name as his handle would be a Leafs fan. I'm so embarrassed!

 

[6ix]

How silly of my to think a guy with a Leaf's player's name as his handle would be a Leafs fan. I'm so embarrassed!

He has a picture of the Sabres GM as his avatar. It is silly of you.

 

[StoneHands]

He has a picture of the Sabres GM as his avatar. It is silly of you.

I'll do more research next time I reply to a troll post. I won't sleep much tonight after this exchange.

 

[6ix]

I'll do more research next time I reply to a troll post. I won't sleep much tonight after this exchange.

The point I was trying to make is a ton of the leaf threads / polls aren’t created by Leaf fans. Of course we do create some threads and polls. They’re just always the same and boring, leaf fans get called homers, leaf fans say it’s to balance leaf haters etc etc. Rinse and repeat.

 

[StoneHands]

The point I was trying to make is a ton of the leaf threads / polls aren’t created by Leaf fans. Of course we do create some threads and polls. They’re just always the same and boring, leaf fans get called homers, leaf fans say it’s to balance leaf haters etc etc. Rinse and repeat.

Maybe if you didn't come into threads that you don't think should exist and post something like "I get everyone wants to talk about the leafs, good or bad, because they're the centre of the hockey universe", people won't call you insufferable homers. Just a thought. Leafs fans get dumped on for sure but you guys also bring on a lot of it yourself.

I'm a Flyers fan and people from Philly are constantly being called trash and bad fans here and and I say the same thing to people in my own fan base. Embrace the hate. Don't come into a thread looking to ruffle feathers and then act like a victim.

 

[Garthinater]

You probably should have posted this in a thread that wasn't started by a Leafs fan.

Lol maybe you should check who created the thread before you make yourself look silly? Although it is funny so carry on Stone

 

[IPS]

When we're talking about pure playmaking, why are we omitting PP assists and secondary assists? Part of the argument in Matthews' defense is Hyman keeps him from getting secondary assists. Why doesn't Crosby have the same issue when Kunitz is dragging him down? And shouldn't Matthews be racking up more assists on the PP when he doesn't have to worry about passing to Hyman?

Until he shows otherwise, I'd rank Matthews more as a good passer than a great one. Maybe that's just arguing semantics and we're essentially saying the same thing. But I think he's the type of guy who'll probably be in the 40-45 assist range for most of his career, with a couple of peak seasons of 50+, rather than someone who'll average in the 50 range, with peak seasons above 60+.

[mod]

Look at Crosby's PP time and usage, then look at Matthews'. Should Crosby not have the big advantage there?

We have a perfectly identical to context to compare them at with regards to even strength. Crosby is still notably better than Matthews there. What exactly is your problem here?

 

[Skolman]

Lol maybe you should check who created the thread before you make yourself look silly? Although it is funny so carry on Stone

Garth you probably didn't even know he wasn't a Leafs fan until 6ix replied to him, you're literally just an echo to what was already said.

 

[StoneHands]

Lol maybe you should check who created the thread before you make yourself look silly? Although it is funny so carry on Stone

Follow along with the thread, bud. There's already like 5 posts addressing this.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

[mod]

Look at Crosby's PP time and usage, then look at Matthews'. Should Crosby not have the big advantage there?

We have a perfectly identical to context to compare them at with regards to even strength. Crosby is still notably better than Matthews there. What exactly is your problem here?

Do you have to get so antagonistic in every single post? I was having a friendly discussion with CantLoseWithMatthews about Matthews' playmaking upside. I have no "problem". I'm curious his thoughts on what he projects for Matthews going forward (as he seems to at least be able to be civil in discussions).

 

[Garthinater]

Garth you probably didn't even know he wasn't a Leafs fan until 6ix replied to him, you're literally just an echo to what was already said.

I'm having a hard time understanding your message kid.

Alright, is "he" the OP? If so, when did 6ix reply to austonsnostrils? Or is the first "he" the op and the second "he" is stonehands?

 

[Garthinater]

Follow along with the thread, bud. There's already like 5 posts addressing this.

I did follow along with the thread, that's how I found your silly message. I'm just pointing out a way for you to prevent making a fool out of yourself in the future. Hope it helps

 

[Connor McConnor]

I voted Marner, kid is got more pure offensive skill than Matthews for me. Nowhere near the complete hockey player AM is but Marner's ceiling is Patty Kane 2.0

 

[Garthinater]

I voted Marner, kid is got more pure offensive skill than Matthews for me. Nowhere near the complete hockey player AM is but Marner's ceiling is Patty Kane 2.0

It remains to be seen if marner can reach that ceiling but I agree, he has more offensive skill. I don't want to get my hopes up but I could see marner ending up with around 80 points if he plays with JT

 

[Skolman]

I'm having a hard time understanding your message kid.

Alright, is "he" the OP? If so, when did 6ix reply to austonsnostrils? Or is the first "he" the op and the second "he" is stonehands?

Man you're painful