Dreger: (Mod warning post 661) Marner's camp to take negotiations beyond July 1st and to visit teams startin

[93gilmour93]

Thats a lie.

Nope. I'm down. Take TWS and we take out the Islanders

 

[yababy]

Eichel?

accurate, but not a suitable comparable. Eichel has not scored 30 due to injuries, not because he's not a goal scorer. Marner looks like he could crest 30 in a fluke year. The dude just doesn't appear like a goal scorer to me

 

[Liferleafer]

Why do you keep using 6.9 when it is 6.96M or 7M. My reply stands. Look at the comparables. To hold out and pay a guy with 7 goals last year more than TT, Larkin, Ehlers, Pasta, is absolutely a fail. Atleast Marner is a better player, but again, Dubas did not learn from the Nylander overpayment. It's June in a few days and here we are again!

Answer the question or stop posting rubbish.

Your statement: Nylander is overpaid at 6.96 after 2 60+point seasons.
Your statement: Dubas caved and Nylander schooled him.

Your statement: Dubas failed by not giving Marner 9 million after 2 60+ point seasons.

Now explain to everybody how all those statements....your statements can be true.

I don't care how Nylander's deal compares to others....Hell, go ahead and call it bad. But tell me how you can justify paying Marner 9 million after posting very similar stats to Nylander?

 

[powerstuck]

think pasta signs that same deal now or wants more?

Definitely more. Not only wants, but deserves more.

 

[Tripod]

Ok, so you are saying Dubas made a mistake not signing Marner befor this season for 9 million. I am now going to ask you a direct question, and i hope you don't dance around it....it will take a bit to set up the question.

In this very thread...and many others, you have absolutely trashed Dubas for massively overpaying 22 year old Nylander 6.9 million after 2 straight 60+ point years. You have said Dubase caved and got schooled by Nylander.

So now the question, after last season ,21 year old Marner had 2 straight 60+point seasons...can you please explain to everyone how Dubas failed AT THAT TIME by not signing Marner for 9 million? I mean he was pretty comparable to Nylander....no? So if Nylander is overpaid at 6.9....how is not giving 2.1 more to Marner AT THAT TIME considered a failure?

To jump in, I have said it would have been a big risk to sign him to that 9 million deal. I 100% understand the apprehension. He risked it, and lost. He 100% would have caught heat last summer...but then would have been seen as insightful if Marner just posted the season he did. Sort of like how the Draisaitl deal is viewed now. Or hell...just like how Matthews is being ripped now. If Matthews finishes top 3 in scoring and posts 110 points next year, Dubas will not feel the heat he is today...or if he posts 80 points and missed 10 games.

The point you didn't mention, was that Nylander got his points playing with Matthews. Marner got his and spent time on the 4th line that 2nd year. There was an obvious talent difference. Marner's 69 was way more impressive than Nylander's 61.

And fwiw, Nylanders deal is fine once he posts 60+ points again as we have seen from the Nelson deal.

 

[yababy]

Bull****. Marner after last season was right in line with players like Nylander/TT/Pasta. If Dubas would have signed him to 9 million after posting a 69 point season...TWS would have been having a hayday telling the world how Dubas ****ed up. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it could have gone the other way as well. Dubas could have given him 9 million, and Marner could have remained a 60-70 point player.

I bet Dubas put Nylander and Marner in the same camp last summer. I highly doubt they were offering more than 7M to either player. In fact, due to the campaign by Leaf mgmt to devalue Marner by benching him and putting him on the 4th line, I'd say they probably wanted Marner at less than Nylander.

 

[yababy]

I'm sorry but Dubas has ALL the leverage... on June 26, send out a memo saying present your best offer for Marner ...an under 22 or NHL ready top pair potential RHD, a 1st rd pick and top prospect as min bid (that is the buy in price)
...on June 30th, if no deal signed, Marner is traded to the best offer, case closed, and Dubas's lights up a Glen Sather stogie.

Is there a long history of trading players during contract disputes? usually the current team needs to sign before the trade partner agrees. Trading teams needs cost certainty

 

[sparxx87]

To jump in, I have said it would have been a big risk to sign him to that 9 million deal. I 100% understand the apprehension. He risked it, and lost. He 100% would have caught heat last summer...but then would have been seen as insightful if Marner just posted the season he did. Sort of like how the Draisaitl deal is viewed now. Or hell...just like how Matthews is being ripped now. If Matthews finishes top 3 in scoring and posts 110 points next year, Dubas will not feel the heat he is today...or if he posts 80 points and missed 10 games.

The point you didn't mention, was that Nylander got his points playing with Matthews. Marner got his and spent time on the 4th line that 2nd year. There was an obvious talent difference. Marner's 69 was way more impressive than Nylander's 61.

And fwiw, Nylanders deal is fine once he posts 60+ points again as we have seen from the Nelson deal.

Nailed it.

It seems almost silly to judge this stuff before it all plays out. Teams think about not only where they are, but where they’ll be, and where the cap’ll be.

HF always seems to take a much smaller minded approach.

 

[Liferleafer]

I bet Dubas put Nylander and Marner in the same camp last summer. I highly doubt they were offering more than 7M to either player. In fact, due to the campaign by Leaf mgmt to devalue Marner by benching him and putting him on the 4th line, I'd say they probably wanted Marner at less than Nylander.

I won't say there was a "campaign" to devalue anyone, but i think, at that time, putting Nylander and Marner in the same tier was the correct thing to do. At that point, they were (statistically) pretty close.

 

[mydnyte]

To jump in, I have said it would have been a big risk to sign him to that 9 million deal. I 100% understand the apprehension. He risked it, and lost. He 100% would have caught heat last summer...but then would have been seen as insightful if Marner just posted the season he did. Sort of like how the Draisaitl deal is viewed now. Or hell...just like how Matthews is being ripped now. If Matthews finishes top 3 in scoring and posts 110 points next year, Dubas will not feel the heat he is today...or if he posts 80 points and missed 10 games.

The point you didn't mention, was that Nylander got his points playing with Matthews. Marner got his and spent time on the 4th line that 2nd year. There was an obvious talent difference. Marner's 69 was way more impressive than Nylander's 61.

And fwiw, Nylanders deal is fine once he posts 60+ points again as we have seen from the Nelson deal.

Marner pretty much exclusively played with Bozak and JVR ...Mathews/Nylander were without any decent help and typically got the tougher d matchups.

 

[93gilmour93]

Nailed it.

It seems almost silly to judge this stuff before it all plays out. Teams think about not only where they are, but where they’ll be, and where the cap’ll be.

HF always seems to take a much smaller minded approach.

100 %

 

[GIN ANTONIC]

Bull****. Marner after last season was right in line with players like Nylander/TT/Pasta. If Dubas would have signed him to 9 million after posting a 69 point season...TWS would have been having a hayday telling the world how Dubas ****ed up. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it could have gone the other way as well. Dubas could have given him 9 million, and Marner could have remained a 60-70 point player.

You're right. It could have gone the other way... but it didn't. Sounds like Dubas isn't very good at his job if he can't evaluate talent and project their career trajectory.

I mean, it's fine if he thought Marner was in the Nylander range and felt $9 million was too much. If that's really what he thought then he was clearly wrong and misjudged the player and situation. Now he's gonna pay for it.

 

[sparxx87]

I bet Dubas put Nylander and Marner in the same camp last summer. I highly doubt they were offering more than 7M to either player. In fact, due to the campaign by Leaf mgmt to devalue Marner by benching him and putting him on the 4th line, I'd say they probably wanted Marner at less than Nylander.

Actually, that had more to do with ‘discipline’ to a line that was terrible (Bozak-JVR) ... Babcock isn’t sending a veteran to the 4th line, so...

It wasn’t a conscious effort to lower his value, it was meant to make him force his way back up. It worked. A year later and he’s 90+ points.

I can only ask, what are you talking about?

 

[Tripod]

Nailed it.

It seems almost silly to judge this stuff before it all plays out. Teams think about not only where they are, but where they’ll be, and where the cap’ll be.

HF always seems to take a much smaller minded approach.

Well...you can judge it though. On signing day...whoever it is, it's judged. Then it's judged again based on how the player plays, other contracts, etc...

But what we have seen, is bad contracts can look good 1 year, good the next...and visa versa. Nylander looked high when signed, worse with the crap year, better with Nelson signing(and likely more to come), and could look good...or bad depending on what his season looks like next year. Then can look completely different again the following year.

From my own team...look for Giroux and Voracek at 8ish million have looked. Some years steals, some years overpayment, and with both capable of PPg years, could keep being steals. Meanwhile, Nashville pays Ryan Johansen 8 million for 3 straight sub 65 point seasons.

Stick Nylander with Matthews and I would expect him being a 70 point guy going forward.

 

[sparxx87]

Well...you can judge it though. On signing day...whoever it is, it's judged. Then it's judged again based on how the player plays, other contracts, etc...

But what we have seen, is bad contracts can look good 1 year, good the next...and visa versa. Nylander looked high when signed, worse with the crap year, better with Nelson signing(and likely more to come), and could look good...or bad depending on what his season looks like next year. Then can look completely different again the following year.

From my own team...look for Giroux and Voracek at 8ish million have looked. Some years steals, some years overpayment, and with both capable of PPg years, could keep being steals. Meanwhile, Nashville pays Ryan Johansen 8 million for 3 straight sub 65 point seasons.

Stick Nylander with Matthews and I would expect him being a 70 point guy going forward.

I guess ‘be overly critical’ would have been a better choice, but you’re right.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

You people act like there is any chance Marner leaves.

This is a negotiating tatic put out there by dreger through Marner's agent so that when Marner signs and he will, Dreger gets to be the one to break it.

This is the same agent that said in February that Marner would be a Leaf for a long time.

It's part of the process it will get done.

 

[Liferleafer]

You're right. It could have gone the other way... but it didn't. Sounds like Dubas isn't very good at his job if he can't evaluate talent and project their career trajectory.

I mean, it's fine if he thought Marner was in the Nylander range and felt $9 million was too much. If that's really what he thought then he was clearly wrong and misjudged the player and situation. Now he's gonna pay for it.

Come on, are you telling me any GM would take a 60+ point guy and pay him 2+million more than his comparables on the hope he might be good?

 

[mydnyte]

Is there a long history of trading players during contract disputes? usually the current team needs to sign before the trade partner agrees. Trading teams needs cost certainty

its happened often enough, and the team that is looking to trade for him could easily meet the salary demands, and likely will be one of the teams Marner will speak to in his window, so asking price will be well established. ...even if traded to an undesirable team, they hold all the power, as even if Marner snubs than and signs an offer sheet from another team, they can match. that is another area of power that Dubas holds... i.e. the Red wings offer thier top RHD prospect, their 1st and another top prospect, but, Marner doesnt want to be in a rebuild, well, too bad for him. Take the Leafs offer, or play in rebuild through his prime

 

[LT]

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Speculation: - Marner Mega-Thread: Part I