OT: MMA General Discussion Thread (UFC, Strikeforce, Belator etc...) Part 2

[Canovin]

except Mayweather was never built on power, he is technically near impossible to hit for the best boxers in the world. and he is fighting someone who doesnt even have an amateur boxing match.

Technically near impossible to hit should only be used when the fighter is at his peak. Mayweather is far from that now. Conor is at his absolute best right now. That's the catch here.

All great boxers have fallen. Ali, Tyson, Sugar Ray Robinson. Roy Jones got KO'd several times by amateurs and he was one of the greatest in his prime. Mayweather could very well be washed up right now with the 2 years lay off. Let's see how well he could take a hit. Cotto and Mosley caught him. Conor is bigger and faster than those guys

 

[Musashi]

Lmao. McGregor barely out boxed Nate Diaz.

Nate got lit up on the feet in both fights until his Homer Simpson strategy kicked in

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

Nate got lit up on the feet in both fights until his Homer Simpson strategy kicked in

I'm not sure that I'd agree with that McGregor comes out the gate hot and fades (though his fights often don't last long enough for that to become apparent), the Diaz bros. have an efficient boxing style where they never really expend a huge amount of energy on their punches, but through solid technique and volume put a large amount of damage on their opponent, that tends to sneek up on guys, even if it doesn't look like at first glance. Nate took a large amount of damage in both fights, but he was getting his own licks in as well, he wasn't just a damage sponge until McGregor gassed himself out.

 

[Samus44]

so basically to summarize:

1) Mcgregor only beat Max Holloway cause he was an up and comer fighter. Holloway would beat Mcgregor if they fought today.
2) Mcgregor only beat Mendes cause Mendes took the fight on two weeks notice
3) Mcgregor only beat Aldo because Aldo was projecting downwards anyway
4) Mcgregor only beat Alvarez cause he was the worst 155 champ in the history of the ufc
5) Mcgregor should have lost the second fight to Diaz

Gotcha, waiting for the so called credit you give Mcgregor.

That's not what i said at all. McGregor vs Holloway may go the same way again but ANYONE who follows MMA knows Holloway is far different now than he was at 21, the Swanson fights are obvious evidence. 21 is CRAZY young in MMA. It's the same reason I don't consider McGregors loss to Duffy all that relevant. Beating Holloway at that time, and not in a landslide by any means, wasn't a top notch win. Holloway had to beat everyone in the top 7 other than Mendes (counldn't fight suspended) and Edgar (timing didn't work out in terms of #1 contender status) in Lamas, Swanson, Pettis, Stephens, Oliviera before a title shot. McGregor didn't have to fight a single one of those guys before getting a shot against Aldo and then Mendes for the interim.

I'd take McGregor to beat Mendes again but that's not the point. He got an interim title shot against a guy with two weeks notice after beating Denis ****ing Siver. There is literally no precedence in the history of modern MMA of guy fighting a washed up journey man and getting a title shot. Even Poirer and Brandano are well below the elites and at the time Holloway was still a nobody. He had beaten NOBODY of note and got a title shot. NOBODY. When talking about styles look how Mendes was able to push Aldo to the brink but gets KO'd by Edgar who couldn't push Aldo nearly as much, that's why a guy is supposed to prove himself against multiple top end guys. Styles make fights.

Aldo was projecting downwards but it's still a massive victory, in fact it's why i called him a GREAT FIGHTER. But the facts are clear Aldo had just been in a devastating bout and barely came out ahead and that was after multiple fights in which he wasn't the same dominate fighter. In the history of MMA Aldo has reigned atop his division longer than anyone else and that's because it's crazy hard to fight the best of the best that long, the body doesn't hold up. Hell even McGregor said "the chin doesn't recover". Everyone knew Aldo was getting vulnerable. Still a massive victory but it's crazy that he didn't get a rematch.

I never said Alvarez was the worst champ in the history of the division, although a VERY strong argument can be made that he is. Go to an MMA forum and discuss you won't find a single person who thinks Alvarez is close to Ferguson or Khabib, this wasn't even a debate while Alvarez was champ. He got a good shot in on Dos Anjos who before that looked like the better fighter, it happens all the time. In fact both Ferguson and Khabib looked more dominant against Dos Anjos in dismantling him. Alvarez is a quality win but he's not the best of the division, in fact his 3 fight win streak before facing McGregor included two split decision victories against Pettis and Melendez, both of whom have 4 losses in their last 5 fights, and that was preceded by a loss to Cerrone. Pettis is a great example of an excellent striker who looked all world until he had to fight a lot of great opponents, was figured out and stylistically unable to adapt to different fighters.

I didn't say he should have lost the second fight i said the decision was heavily debatable and essentially a coin flip. It wasn't a dominate or unanimous victory and for a guy who is supposedly some kind of GOAT candidate he really should have been able to dominate a guy people like Dos Anjos destroyed.

I actually watch all the fights and follow the sport, it's pretty clear that McGregor hasn't "beaten everybody" but rather has a few impressive victories against favourable stylistic matchups. A great fighter sure but he's proven far less than many others in the sport and arguably within his division. It's a fact, doesn't mean he may not have beaten all those guys but you can't just assume he would have either.

 

[Samus44]

lol people talking like he is bisping.

No Bisping actually had to fight all the best guys and finally get a breakthrough win before getting a title shot. McGregor is actually the anti-Bisping. Bisping deserved the shot, he's a weak champ for sure and he deserved it because Romero and Jacare couldn't go and Moose had been upset a little bit before that but at the time he was the best option to step in for that fight. Bisping is good evidence of what can happen in a title fight, everybody knows Rockhold is better and wins 9 out of 10 times but upsets happen. There's no doubt McGregor is better than Bisping relative to his division, but at least Bisping had to earn his shot.

 

[Canovin]

No Bisping actually had to fight all the best guys and finally get a breakthrough win before getting a title shot. McGregor is actually the anti-Bisping. Bisping deserved the shot, he's a weak champ for sure and he deserved it because Romero and Jacare couldn't go and Moose had been upset a little bit before that but at the time he was the best option to step in for that fight. Bisping is good evidence of what can happen in a title fight, everybody knows Rockhold is better and wins 9 out of 10 times but upsets happen. There's no doubt McGregor is better than Bisping relative to his division, but at least Bisping had to earn his shot.

Not sure if Bisping would be a good example. He still has to defend his title against the contender in Yoel who will likely KO him cold. Instead he chooses GSP who is a weight class down.

Anytime you're the biggest draw in your sport, you get to pick and choose fights that can generate you the most money. Conor already cemented his legacy as the biggest star in MMA history. Now it's time to think retirement after his biggest payday

 

[Musashi]

I'm not sure that I'd agree with that McGregor comes out the gate hot and fades (though his fights often don't last long enough for that to become apparent), the Diaz bros. have an efficient boxing style where they never really expend a huge amount of energy on their punches, but through solid technique and volume put a large amount of damage on their opponent, that tends to sneek up on guys, even if it doesn't look like at first glance. Nate took a large amount of damage in both fights, but he was getting his own licks in as well, he wasn't just a damage sponge until McGregor gassed himself out.

Good points and I agree with everything you said about Diaz. With Conor though, he's really only faded once and that was the first Diaz fight which resulted in an epic beatdown.

Although the momentum change in the rematch was crazy, Conor was never really in trouble against the cage and rolled with almost every punch Nate threw. The most danger he was in was at the very end when Nate tossed him to the ground but fortunately for him time ran out. Also to take the 4th round against Nate was quite the achievement and the difference in the fight, although he can be fairly criticised for using the running man too much.

It doesn't help that Nate can be a slow starter but if he couldn't eat those multiple fight ending shots that have flat-lined other fighters known for their chins, these fights are another example where Conor looks like he's in the matrix.

 

[Samus44]

Not sure if Bisping would be a good example. He still has to defend his title against the contender in Yoel who will likely KO him cold. Instead he chooses GSP who is a weight class down.

Anytime you're the biggest draw in your sport, you get to pick and choose fights that can generate you the most money. Conor already cemented his legacy as the biggest star in MMA history. Now it's time to think retirement after his biggest payday

Bisping deserved his shot but his defenses have been a joke. Fighting a decrepit and washed up Dan Henderson was a farce. The UFC want's to market Bisping because he's a ludmouth Brit with name recognition. If the UFC cared about the legitimacy of the sport he would have fought Jacare.

McGregor is the biggest draw because of his talking and the UFC hype machine, not because of he's the GOAT. That's what i'm saying. In fact i don't blame McGregor at all for any of this, why wouldn't he want a massive pay day. The UFC let him do things they wouldn't let anyone else do, Silva and Aldo weren't allowed to fight for a second belt unless they agreed to vacate their current belt. Penn was given a shot at it but he had to agree to vacate the LW belt had he won. McGregor only got stripped after it became a massive joke with him fighting 3 times in a different division without defending. Great fighter but no way will i concede he's "beaten everybody" like i originally objected to, nobody who watches the sport closely can think that's true.

 

[Samus44]

Good points and I agree with everything you said about Diaz. With Conor though, he's really only faded once and that was the first Diaz fight which resulted in an epic beatdown.

Although the momentum change in the rematch was crazy, Conor was never really in trouble against the cage and rolled with almost every punch Nate threw. The most danger he was in was at the very end when Nate tossed him to the ground but fortunately for him time ran out. Also to take the 4th round against Nate was quite the achievement and the difference in the fight, although he can be fairly criticised for using the running man too much.

It doesn't help that Nate can be a slow starter but if he couldn't eat those multiple fight ending shots that have flat-lined other fighters known for their chins, these fights are another example where Conor looks like he's in the matrix.

McGregor was in massive trouble against the cage, he was getting lit up. The Diaz's are as "pillowfisted" as they come in the UFC but they all hit really ****ing hard and McGregor was clearly holding on for dear life. Great fight though.

 

[Musashi]

McGregor was in massive trouble against the cage, he was getting lit up. The Diaz's are as "pillowfisted" as they come in the UFC but they all hit really ****ing hard and McGregor was clearly holding on for dear life. Great fight though.

Nah man, go on fight pass and watch these moments in real speed and again in slo-motion.

The momentum starts shifting the first time Conor turns his back to Nate at the 1:40 mark in the second round but Conor still lands all the clean shots until Nate backs him into the cage with around 50 seconds left. Still with all the shots Nate throws, few land clean and Conor still returns fire with some punches and knees of his own.

Now for the third round, which is Nate's most dominant round, Nate turns up the pressure right away and the exchanges are very even but Conor still does a great job making sure he's at the end of Nate's punches while landing the harder shots. It's not until there's just over a minute left in the round where Nate lands a nice head kick and starts to take over the clinch against the cage. Nate throws and lands a lot, especially in the last 10 seconds but Conor is still in there rolling and moving his head doing a decent job at minimizing the damage.

The moment really gets magnified because of the change in momentum and what happened in the last fight. The commentary also factors in big time but despite this, Conor still goes on to win the next round.

 

[Musashi]

I'd take McGregor to beat Mendes again but that's not the point. He got an interim title shot against a guy with two weeks notice after beating Denis ****ing Siver. There is literally no precedence in the history of modern MMA of guy fighting a washed up journey man and getting a title shot. Even Poirer and Brandano are well below the elites and at the time Holloway was still a nobody. He had beaten NOBODY of note and got a title shot. NOBODY.

What about Anderson Silva getting a title shot for beating Chris Leben? Rampage beating Marvin Eastman? It's not hard to understand that he was fast tracked because of the attention he brought and the way he was finishing fights. Poirier was deserving of his #5 ranking and even opened up as the betting favourite.

He already had his title shot after that but the Siver fight was used to heavily promote Conor during the NFL playoffs on fox. Don't rewrite history on Siver either, he didn't deserve the fight but washed up journey man? He was 4-1 at FW and was in a similar situation when he derailed George Sotiropoulos' hype when he was a contender at LW.

I actually watch all the fights and follow the sport, it's pretty clear that McGregor hasn't "beaten everybody" but rather has a few impressive victories against favourable stylistic matchups. A great fighter sure but he's proven far less than many others in the sport and arguably within his division. It's a fact, doesn't mean he may not have beaten all those guys but you can't just assume he would have either.

I agree Eddie was the most favourable matchup out of the top 5 at LW but nobody did to Eddie what Conor did. I also agree that he hasn't come close to "beating everybody" but it's because the man is a game changer and he's not going to follow the conventional UFC champion path.

I get it's annoying that he has yet to defend a title, which is tougher than winning one, but it's more incredible that an MMA fighter has garnished so much attention, that he's pulled the biggest prize fighter in history out of retirement to receive a 9 figure payday.

 

[Burnt Biscuits]

What about Anderson Silva getting a title shot for beating Chris Leben? Rampage beating Marvin Eastman? It's not hard to understand that he was fast tracked because of the attention he brought and the way he was finishing fights. Poirier was deserving of his #5 ranking and even opened up as the betting favourite.

Going to disagree on Rampage, the Eastman fight was a joke it was just him avenging an early loss in his career and gave the UFC a way to introduce him to their audience in what was basically a guaranteed victory, but in Pride he was a top 2-3 guy in what was a killer division. On top of that he already had a convincing victory on Chuck Liddell in Pride which I'm sure Chuck wanted to avenge, Chuck was on a 7 fight win streak (last loss was to Rampage) so he cleared out most of the worthy contenders already, paving the path for a rematch.

While I generally wouldn't support fast tracking any guys from other promotions to a title shot in the UFC, Pride was different it is the only promotion that had fighters that were on par with the UFC and I'd argue that Pride's Middleweight and Heavyweight divisions were strictly better than the UFC's at the time.

 

[YEGJuniorFan]

Mcgregor is awkward on his feet as a stand up fighter. His head movement is non existent and he relies on his chin to hold up during those 5 round battles. His cardio has also been questioned a lot of times, he got tired against Diaz in the first fight and it cost him.

Dude gets popped a lot basically and you aren't going to win in points against a points fighter if you are going to get hit 50 times a round which will happen in this fight. Hes going to get jabbed into oblivion.

If you watch the tape of him sparring with Van Heerden he actually slips and moves pretty well. I'm not saying it's anywhere close to the level needed to survive Floyd but I disagree he is awkward. His understanding of range is fantastic. In the first Diaz fight he was coming off of antibiotics which absolutely drain your gas tank. You never heard an excuse from Connor once.

 

[YEGJuniorFan]

For those saying McGregor hasn't beaten anyone...Alvarez had some big wins and Aldo has looked great even after that knockout. The only guys I think Connor needs to beat is Khabib and Tony which is easier said than done obviously. Forget about him fighting 145 he's too big he's never going back there. Holloway can rematch him at 55.

 

[molsonmuscle360]

Reports are pretty sketchy right now, but local fighter Tim Hague collapsed backstage after a boxing match last night and from some reports has been declared brain dead.

Very sad, Tim was a really nice guy

 

[rboomercat90]

Reports are pretty sketchy right now, but local fighter Tim Hague collapsed backstage after a boxing match last night and from some reports has been declared brain dead.

Very sad, Tim was a really nice guy

What a tragedy. I watched this fight on you tube and I can't believe it wasn't stopped. Hague wasn't competitive from the start and was repeatedly getting knocked down without being able to defend himself. He spent most of the fight crouched down looking like he was trying to grab Braidwood's legs for an mma takedown. He looked out of it early in the first round. There should be a lot of questions asked about what was allowed to go on.

 

[Faelko]

Crazy week for MMA, Matt Hughes hit by train as well.

 

[nabob]

Reports are pretty sketchy right now, but local fighter Tim Hague collapsed backstage after a boxing match last night and from some reports has been declared brain dead.

Very sad, Tim was a really nice guy

Tim was a great guy and will be missed by many people in many communities. Truly a great human being. So sad.

 

[Homesick]

Tim was a great guy and will be missed by many people in many communities. Truly a great human being. So sad.

Amazing guy. I really wish he would of retired when he said he was going to.
My condolences to his son, family, friends, and fans

 

[GMofOilers]

RIP Tim

Condolences to his family and friends.

 

[joestevens29]

Amazing guy. I really wish he would of retired when he said he was going to.
My condolences to his son, family, friends, and fans

Wish they would've called the fight after the first when he was knocked down 3x officially and had what looked like slip/knockdowns 2 more times.

Heck of a nice guy and very sad to see. I'm not overly shocked that something like this has happened as there have been some pretty bad matchups over the year in local boxing. But never did I think Hague would've been one of the guys that would've been in this situation.


There's also another guy that fought locally here a few times from Quebec who just went through something similar and is still in an induced coma.

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-b-boxe...ma-after-post-bout-brain-hemorrhage-1.3447584

 

[molsonmuscle360]

Wish they would've called the fight after the first when he was knocked down 3x officially and had what looked like slip/knockdowns 2 more times.

Heck of a nice guy and very sad to see. I'm not overly shocked that something like this has happened as there have been some pretty bad matchups over the year in local boxing. But never did I think Hague would've been one of the guys that would've been in this situation.


There's also another guy that fought locally here a few times from Quebec who just went through something similar and is still in an induced coma.

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/n-b-boxe...ma-after-post-bout-brain-hemorrhage-1.3447584

Combat sports in Alberta needs a overhaul in a big way. I've seen too many fights here go on way too long in both boxing and MMA. Too many "Let me bang bro" rig pig meatheads are refs in this province. Not enough truly trained individuals.

 

[joestevens29]

Combat sports in Alberta needs a overhaul in a big way. I've seen too many fights here go on way too long in both boxing and MMA. Too many "Let me bang bro" rig pig meatheads are refs in this province. Not enough truly trained individuals.

Well the ref in question is supposedly one of the better in Alberta. Although he did have that infamous choke out incident a few years back when the chick was still being choked out after clearly being unconscious for quite some time. So ya I'd agree that some training is needed.


Watched Braidwood's clip on IG last night. Guy is in a lot of pain, can tell he really cared about Tim and had no idea at the time to what was happening.

 

[Cloned]

Not the way Braidwood wanted to make news, I'm sure.

Must feel horrible.

 

[dss97]

JDS vs Ngannou will happen in Edmonton for UFC 215. I'm pumped, that's pretty much my ideal match up for the heavyweight division right now.