OT: MLB Thread XLVII

[JimmyG89]

I've been debating this the last few days and I want to bring it to people who are smarter than Pauly T with his shirtless Facebook profile pic.

MLB is considering rules to nerf the shift and everyone is like "too bad players should just go the other way."

I always see this and as somebody who played and was an extreme push-hitter, it's really frustrating.

If you told me "too bad, buddy, just pull the ball," you're telling to completely change the way I play the game. It's like telling Artemi Panarin or Adam Fox "hey, you're great, but you should take your 5'9" frame and just hit people more. Just do it. Oh and Alexis? You're a bit on the slow side. Just skate faster."

Like, ok, boss. I'll just do the sports better. It's been that simple the whole time.

Or they tell you lay down a bunt. Yeah, that's what I wanna do as the #3 hitter in the order, run a play on which the league-wide average is about .140.

And yes, there are times where you have to cut down, put a ball in play, don't strike out, small ball, whatever. But that's situational. Over the course of 600 plate appearances, you have to hit the way you hit.

What MLB should do about the shift, if anything, is an interesting debate, but it's been around since what, Giambi in 2003? That's 18 years now. If "just beat it" were viable, they would have beaten it by now.

One thing the MLB is doing is trying to diversify the way the game is played. It was determined through analytics that the best way to win games was to hit the ball in the air, look for home runs and walks. Take less risk in attempting to steal bases and don't give away outs by bunting. In all of those things, it has made the game more robotic and has less action in the game.

I do like that they are attempting to incentivize other aspects of the game by making some adjustments at the lower levels. Limiting the shift and allowing a batter to put the ball in play and have a chance of pulling a grounder for a hit instead of it going to a dude playing shallow right field.

I'm not sure I like that they all need to be on the IF dirt, but if you have someone in shallow RF, you cannot have your SS/3B cover the 2nd base option. We've seen in the past, against slower runners that the 2nd baseman or SS will play on the grass behind their position. I don't think that is an issue.

The two throw overs attempting to pick a guy off forces pitchers to actually throw the ball home, and you won't want to throw over a 3rd time and risk a balk. Opens up more stolen base options, where the percentages are in the runners favor. Forces pitchers to actually have a move to 1st as well.

Diversify the way offense can be played and speed the game up. If these things do that, then I'm all for it. Sitting through a 3 and a half hour game in person can be quite the task. Get it closer to 2:40 on average.

 

[Machinehead]

One thing the MLB is doing is trying to diversify the way the game is played. It was determined through analytics that the best way to win games was to hit the ball in the air, look for home runs and walks. Take less risk in attempting to steal bases and don't give away outs by bunting. In all of those things, it has made the game more robotic and has less action in the game.

I do like that they are attempting to incentivize other aspects of the game by making some adjustments at the lower levels. Limiting the shift and allowing a batter to put the ball in play and have a chance of pulling a grounder for a hit instead of it going to a dude playing shallow right field.

I'm not sure I like that they all need to be on the IF dirt, but if you have someone in shallow RF, you cannot have your SS/3B cover the 2nd base option. We've seen in the past, against slower runners that the 2nd baseman or SS will play on the grass behind their position. I don't think that is an issue.

The two throw overs attempting to pick a guy off forces pitchers to actually throw the ball home, and you won't want to throw over a 3rd time and risk a balk. Opens up more stolen base options, where the percentages are in the runners favor. Forces pitchers to actually have a move to 1st as well.

Diversify the way offense can be played and speed the game up. If these things do that, then I'm all for it. Sitting through a 3 and a half hour game in person can be quite the task. Get it closer to 2:40 on average.

Limiting the number of pickoff attempts is my favorite thing that they're trying. Literally just professional time-wasting.

 

[romba]

Limiting the number of pickoff attempts is my favorite thing that they're trying. Literally just professional time-wasting.

I heard about this rule change and LOVE it. You see guys toss over to first when the guy on 1st literally hasn't budged off the bag. It's a mind/stress-reset. And with the pitcher's clock coming you'd see every pitcher just toss it over to 1st to reset the clock if time starts getting short. I'm sure you'd even have guys do it accidentally without a guy on 1st, just as desperation to get more time to waste and 'think'. We all know how everyone loves watching pitchers think lol. And with hitters getting limited 'step out of the box' delays, pitchers should get limited tosses/step off delays, it makes sense.

I also like the illegal defense idea. Players and coaches don't want to change how hitters hit, they've made that clear. They'd rather slam their head against an immovable wall than learn to jump over it which is fine. But it's time for the league to do something about it because the players won't. 'But DJ Lem is GOLD STANDARD everyone should emmulate'! He's great but he's a unicorn nowadays, not what everyone should try to be. Let's not make believe that it's 'the right way to play' BS.

 

[Ruggs225]

I for one cant wait to start seeing players learn how to make contact again instead-of the strike, walk, hr mentality.

Choking up might be a thing again, which is great for the sport. Need more players to try to be tony gwinn.

Basketball is going through the same thing with the 3 pt shot. Basically nobody wants to take mid range jumpers anymore bc of analytics.

Excel spreadsheets ruin sports bc they have become so damn accurate.

 

[sbjnyc]

This is just patently false.

Lots of the games elite are pull hitters. Always have been.

Ted Williams couldn't put the ball in the left field if he threw it. He's the greatest hitter who ever lived.

You're thinking of pure power hitters. The infield shift isn't new - teams used it against Ted Williams who won batting titles and MVPs despite it. He advocated pulling the ball because he felt he had a better swing while pulling the ball and could adjust to any pitch, not because he was incapable of not pulling the ball. Good hitters can hit while great hitters can adjust. Williams doesn't have a spray chart that I could find but there's a famous exhibit showing his career batting average from every pitch location. I added some spray charts for some more recent players who I consider great hitters.

Derek Jeter spray chart.

Aaron Judge spray chart.

Pujols spray chart

Mike Trout spray chart

 

[darko]

Leave the shift as it is. If a player can't hit the other way well that's too bad. Shift is a strategy, simple as that.

 

[Machinehead]

You're thinking of pure power hitters. The infield shift isn't new - teams used it against Ted Williams who won batting titles and MVPs despite it. He advocated pulling the ball because he felt he had a better swing while pulling the ball and could adjust to any pitch, not because he was incapable of not pulling the ball. Good hitters can hit while great hitters can adjust. Williams doesn't have a spray chart that I could find but there's a famous exhibit showing his career batting average from every pitch location. I added some spray charts for some more recent players who I consider great hitters.

Derek Jeter spray chart.

Aaron Judge spray chart.

Pujols spray chart

Mike Trout spray chart

What about Babe Ruth? Barry Bonds? Johnny Bench? Mickey Mantle? Mel Ott? Gary Sheffield?

All of those guys hit for average with the exception of Bench. Ted Williams hit .406, so pure power hitter seems like a cop-out.

Cody Bellinger is a .300 pull hitter. Jose Bautista had a couple of outstanding seasons and couldn't find right field on a map. Jose Ramirez is a pull hitter. Alex Bregman is a pull hitter. Even Freddie Freeman who is known for using all fields with power pulls almost every groundball he hits ball to second base.

It's just false that you're somehow not great if you're a pull hitter.

 

[Machinehead]

Leave the shift as it is. If a player can't hit the other way well that's too bad. Shift is a strategy, simple as that.

I'm fine with keeping it as it is. I just think "just go the other way dumbass" would have worked sometime over the last two decades if it were viable and we wouldn't be seeing shifts anymore.

It's like "wow, why doesn't somebody just kill Marchand?" Would have happened by now.

 

[darko]

I'm fine with keeping it as it is. I just think "just go the other way dumbass" would have worked sometime over the last two decades if it were viable and we wouldn't be seeing shifts anymore.

It's like "wow, why doesn't somebody just kill Marchand?" Would have happened by now.

Some hitters struggle against breaking pitches and have struggled all their careers. What do we do? Limit a pitcher to one breaking pitch per plate appearance?

 

[Machinehead]

Some hitters struggle against breaking pitches and have struggled all their careers. What do we do? Limit a pitcher to one breaking pitch per plate appearance?

Like I said, I'm not saying the league should intervene, I just think the whole "the players allow it" discourse is tiresome.

It would be just like saying the players allow curveballs by not hitting them.

 

[darko]

These guys are professionals and have played the game all their lives. If you can't hit against a shift, hit a breaking pitch or lay down a bit.... well bad luck. Teams will pick on you.

 

[Machinehead]

These guys are professionals and have played the game all their lives. If you can't hit against a shift, hit a breaking pitch or lay down a bit.... well bad luck. Teams will pick on you.

Don't you dare use the B-word. Nobody has talked more shit about bunts on here than you.

 

[Crease]

Leave the shift as it is. If a player can't hit the other way well that's too bad. Shift is a strategy, simple as that.

This is how I feel. If you hit to one side of the field so regularly that it doesn’t make sense to defend 50% of the field when you’re at bat, you’re just not a good hitter.

 

[darko]

This is how I feel. If you hit to one side of the field so regularly that it doesn’t make sense to defend 50% of the field when you’re at bat, you’re just not a good hitter.

And you hit the nail on the head. Tampering with shift and essentially you are rewarding a bad hitter.

 

[sbjnyc]

What about Babe Ruth? Barry Bonds? Johnny Bench? Mickey Mantle? Mel Ott? Gary Sheffield?

All of those guys hit for average with the exception of Bench. Ted Williams hit .406, so pure power hitter seems like a cop-out.

Cody Bellinger is a .300 pull hitter. Jose Bautista had a couple of outstanding seasons and couldn't find right field on a map. Jose Ramirez is a pull hitter. Alex Bregman is a pull hitter. Even Freddie Freeman who is known for using all fields with power pulls almost every groundball he hits ball to second base.

It's just false that you're somehow not great if you're a pull hitter.

Babe Ruth? A guy who his more homers in a season than most teams doesn't care where the fielder's are. Cody Bellinger isn't really a pull hitter.

 

[Machinehead]

This is how I feel. If you hit to one side of the field so regularly that it doesn’t make sense to defend 50% of the field when you’re at bat, you’re just not a good hitter.

Then most of MLB are bad hitters.

This is not 2003 where we're just doing it to Giambi. Teams shift more than they don't.

 

[sbjnyc]

LeBron James will become a part owner of the Red Sox. He's just doing this to screw around with Liverpool.

 

[Maximus]

I'm officially very nervous. I actually think the Mets are going to be very very good this year and that scares the crap out of me.

They have the bats, the arms and the gloves looks much improved especially down the middle.

Anytime I think like this over my 50 years living and dying with this team, disaster invariably strikes.

Someone please talk me out of this optimism I have that this season is going to be a rousing success....thx in advance!

 

[Ruggs225]

Then most of MLB are bad hitters.

This is not 2003 where we're just doing it to Giambi. Teams shift more than they don't.

also it depends where pitchers are pitching the hitter. You arent going the other way if the pitcher is pitching inside.

so inessence to lefties, if u pitch inside and shift u are basically forcing the batter to hit into the shift.

if u manage to hit the other way on an inside pitch, its either going to be a popup or weak ground ball.

 

[Ruggs225]

Then most of MLB are bad hitters.

This is not 2003 where we're just doing it to Giambi. Teams shift more than they don't.

also it depends where pitchers are pitching the hitter. You arent going the other way if the pitcher is pitching inside.

so inessence to lefties, if u pitch inside and shift u are basically forcing the batter to hit into the shift.

if u manage to hit the other way on an inside pitch, its either going to be a popup or weak ground ball.

also its hard to compare the past, because batters saw much less breaking balls and pitch velocity was much lower than now. Though bats were heavier.

 

[East Coast Bias]

also it depends where pitchers are pitching the hitter. You arent going the other way if the pitcher is pitching inside.

so inessence to lefties, if u pitch inside and shift u are basically forcing the batter to hit into the shift.

if u manage to hit the other way on an inside pitch, its either going to be a popup or weak ground ball.

Yeah this is a really important point.

It's a coordinated effort. If the defense is shifting, the pitcher is throwing inside the whole AB.

I hate the shift, I really don't know how I feel about banning it but I cannot stand it.

But it's really not as simple as "just go the other way" with it. Also constantly tying to bunt for hits is such a waste.

 

[East Coast Bias]

Guhhhh.

 

[Ruggs225]

And back to reality for the Mets. Everything always comes with a problem.

 

[Maximus]

I'm officially very nervous. I actually think the Mets are going to be very very good this year and that scares the crap out of me.

They have the bats, the arms and the gloves looks much improved especially down the middle.

Anytime I think like this over my 50 years living and dying with this team, disaster invariably strikes.

Someone please talk me out of this optimism I have that this season is going to be a rousing success....thx in advance!

Not even a day after composing this, Carassco out for 2 months.

What do they say....self fulfilling prophecy...eh?

This franchise is eternally cursed...ugh!!

 

[Inferno]

Eliminate the shift.

If hockey can do the trapezoid mlb can get rid of that horrible crappy play killing nonsense