Mitchell Marner vs Sebastian Aho

[ACC1224]

I'm not surprised of Marner winning the poll considering the vast amount of Leafs fans compared to Canes presented. This one goes to Aho though. He has been having a great season and if the Canes had anywhere near as good of a group, Aho would be swimming in points. He's simply been that good and the Canes are 100% dependent of him driving them forward and so far he has. Considering that the kid is playing with Staal and Teräväinen (practically their nr 1 line) his production has been quite great as well. He'll be the Zetterberg of the next era.

Really though is there any other way a Leaf player could possibly lead in a poll?

 

[Nizdizzle]

Really though is there any other way a Leaf player could possibly lead in a poll?

Its the easy excuse that pops up every time a Leafs player wins a poll. Easier for people to stomach than the fact that the Leafs might have more than one really good player.

 

[kelsier]

Really though is there any other way a Leaf player could possibly lead in a poll?

Sure, but this thread misses the "The Leafs/The Canes/Neutral fan voting for <insert a player>" option, so it doesn't really yield to the most optimal results from the viewpoint of objectivity. Now I'm not claiming either to be the role model what comes down to the matter at hands since being a fan of Aho, but that's besides the point.

 

[Deadly Dogma]

Sure, but this thread misses the "The Leafs/The Canes/Neutral fan voting for " option, so it doesn't really yield to the most optimal results from the viewpoint of objectivity. Now I'm not claiming either to be the role model what comes down to the matter at hands since being a fan of Aho, but that's besides the point.

As a Leaf fan I usually will not vote if I see the Leaf fan voting option. It basically says that since I am a Leaf fan I am incapable of voting impartially or that my vote means less cuz I am a Leafs fan.

 

[joe dirte]

Overboard? Feel free to elaborate if you think you have more accurate analysis of Sebastian Aho.

yes. not Henrik Zetterberg. not a good comoarable. ales hemsky but a little more defensively responsible.

 

[ACC1224]

Sure, but this thread misses the "The Leafs/The Canes/Neutral fan voting for <insert a player>" option, so it doesn't really yield to the most optimal results from the viewpoint of objectivity. Now I'm not claiming either to be the role model what comes down to the matter at hands since being a fan of Aho, but that's besides the point.

"Neutral fans" can only be objective if they have their own voting option?

 

[Nizdizzle]

Sure, but this thread misses the "The Leafs/The Canes/Neutral fan voting for <insert a player>" option, so it doesn't really yield to the most optimal results from the viewpoint of objectivity. Now I'm not claiming either to be the role model what comes down to the matter at hands since being a fan of Aho, but that's besides the point.

That doesn't add a category for people like yourself, who don't like Leaf fans and would vote against them in every poll. Adding the fanbase options adds zero credibility or "objectivity" to a poll. It just adds a fall back so people can say "Ah see he only lost because we're a smaller fanbase" and works on the premise that one fanbase is less informed than the other 30.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

yes. not Henrik Zetterberg. not a good comoarable. ales hemsky but a little more defensively responsible.

That's one of the worst comparison's I've seen. Hemsky, even in the high scoring days post 04/05 lockout never scored more than 23 goals in a season his entire career. He preferred to dish the puck rather than shoot the puck. Aho already has 24 goals in his rookie season and 25 so far in his second season and is much more balanced between shooting and dishing the puck. Hemsky also preferred to stay more on the perimeter more compared to Aho and not play in the dirty areas and didn't think the entire game (with and without the puck) the way Aho does. Zetterberg is a much better comparison for me. Not saying Aho will reach Z's heights, but style of play is much more similar.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

RE: this poll, I like both of these players and it's very close. For the posters talking about "minutes played", you have to look a the whole picture.

Aho 5v5: 919.10 min played, 13:55 min / game: 1.04 Goals/60; 2.35 P/60
Marner 5v5: 903.12 min played, 12:54 min / game: 0.80 Goals/60; 2.13 P/60
Aho PP: 2:48 min/Game: 4.86 P/60
Marner PP: 2:12 min / Game: 8.56 P/60

Aho has been slightly more productive (per 60 min) this year 5v5 on a worse team and is a better goal scorer.
Marner has been much more productive (per 60 min) this year on the PP on a better team and is a better playmaker.

What's being ignored by many fans is the team's they play on and the talent around them.
Toronto has multiple guys capable of 50-60+ points, Canes have basically 2.
Toronto scores at a rate of 2.84 Goals / 60 5v5, Carolina scores at a rate of 2.14.
Toronto scores at a rate of 8.22 Goals / 60 on the PP, Carolina scores at a rate of 7.16.

Now, I do agree it's sometimes hard to distinguish between a players contribution to team success (ie..how much of the PP scoring is because of Marner), but there is no doubt that the Leafs are a vastly superior offensive team than Carolina.

All that said, I wouldn't put Aho above Marner right now or in the future as well. Marner's upside, IMO, is higher, but these two are closer, at least right now, than some fans want to admit.

 

[joe dirte]

That's one of the worst comparison's I've seen. Hemsky, even in the high scoring days post 04/05 lockout never scored more than 23 goals in a season his entire career. He preferred to dish the puck rather than shoot the puck. Aho already has 24 goals in his rookie season and 25 so far in his second season and is much more balanced between shooting and dishing the puck. Hemsky also preferred to stay more on the perimeter more compared to Aho and not play in the dirty areas and didn't think the entire game (with and without the puck) the way Aho does. Zetterberg is a much better comparison for me. Not saying Aho will reach Z's heights, but style of play is much more similar.

whoa 2 more goals. you proved me wrong.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I have a question. Most know Aho Centered Laine and Puljujarvi for Team Finland. Are the Canes entertaining the idea of Aho moving to Center one day?

Terrific high IQ player, don't think this would be a problem if they do.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

whoa 2 more goals. you proved me wrong.

Well, the season isn't over yet. And it's Aho's rookie and Sophomore season vs. Hemsky's 6th season. And you completely ignored the rest of the post which highlighted the vast differences in the two players. But hey, if you want to make terrible comparisons like this, have at it. Really shows how much you know about the player.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I have a question. Most know Aho Centered Laine and Puljujarvi for Team Finland. Are the Canes entertaining the idea of Aho moving to Center one day?

Terrific high IQ player, don't think this would be a problem if they do.

My understanding is that Aho was primarily a winger in Finland, but they put him at C between Laine and Puljujarvi for the WJ because he was the best suited of the three. Canes have said they see him as a center long term, but didn't want to do that until he was ready. He's played a few games there this year, but mainly a winger. I think a lot of it depends on what they do this off season. If they acquire a center via trade and bring Necas over, then Aho may stay on the wing, particularly because Lindholm has finally been put at center for the Canes and is doing well there (small sample).

If they don't acquire a C and/or Necas stays overseas another year, then there is a chance the move him to center. If I had to bet, I'd say he stays at winger, at least for next season.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

My understanding is that Aho was primarily a winger in Finland, but they put him at C between Laine and Puljujarvi for the WJ because he was the best suited of the three. Canes have said they see him as a center long term, but didn't want to do that until he was ready. He's played a few games there this year, but mainly a winger. I think a lot of it depends on what they do this off season. If they acquire a center via trade and bring Necas over, then Aho may stay on the wing, particularly because Lindholm has finally been put at center for the Canes and is doing well there (small sample).

If they don't acquire a C and/or Necas stays overseas another year, then there is a chance the move him to center. If I had to bet, I'd say he stays at winger, at least for next season.

I'd love to see what Aho could do at Center. I always say this about high IQ players. They can play anywhere. Aho strikes me as a guy that can play anywhere, and play well. If he can transition into a #1C that would give the Canes tremendous flexibility.

 

[thomast]

I'd love to see what Aho could do at Center. I always say this about high IQ players. They can play anywhere. Aho strikes me as a guy that can play anywhere, and play well. If he can transition into a #1C that would give the Canes tremendous flexibility.

Good post. I think Canes could squeeze more potential out of him utilizing his hockeyIQ at C. He is a player who has ability to dictate pace of the game and be engine for his line. He seems to be solid at faceoffs too.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

I have a question. Most know Aho Centered Laine and Puljujarvi for Team Finland. Are the Canes entertaining the idea of Aho moving to Center one day?

Terrific high IQ player, don't think this would be a problem if they do.

He’s taken the occasional shift there this season, but not for a full game or anything. He seemed comfortable enough in the role though, so we’ll see.

 

[kelsier]

As a Leaf fan I usually will not vote if I see the Leaf fan voting option. It basically says that since I am a Leaf fan I am incapable of voting impartially or that my vote means less cuz I am a Leafs fan.

I didn't vote on the Laine + Ehlers vs Matthews + Marner thread either cause it had the neutral option available. I simply cannot tell where that line is. I haven't missed a single Jets game since Laine got drafted (at least the ones he's played at) and I'm a huge Laine fan, while he means more to me than the Jets do. If they lose a game that doesn't ruin my day nor do I care much (since they are already in the playoffs practically) but if he has a bad game that can put me on a bad mood. So you tell me, does that classify me as a Jets fan cause I watch them regularly?

yes. not Henrik Zetterberg. not a good comoarable. ales hemsky but a little more defensively responsible.

I disagree. I see a lot of Zetterberg in him (a little bit of S. Koivu as well) and I've heard many people say the same thing. Aho has been able to take over games this season already and the kid is only 20 years old. I remember one particularly well. It was against Pens at 4th of Jan where he kept facing either Malkin or Crosby in most of the shifts and while Aho isn't on par with either one of them, he certainly was better no matter which one you picked that day (scored 2+1 I think) while the game ended 4-0. How many games have you seen him play this season exactly?

"Neutral fans" can only be objective if they have their own voting option?

Did I ever claim that all neutral voters where 100% objective? Of course not, but the results from neutral fans are heck of a lot more accurate than from team fans.

That doesn't add a category for people like yourself, who don't like Leaf fans and would vote against them in every poll. Adding the fanbase options adds zero credibility or "objectivity" to a poll. It just adds a fall back so people can say "Ah see he only lost because we're a smaller fanbase" and works on the premise that one fanbase is less informed than the other 30.

Well that's just false. I've voted for the Leafs in the past as well and Nylander (even against Ehlers if I recall) in particular. I certainly don't claim I have any fondness towards your organization for all the bs and inaccurate claims thrown towards Laine in the past, that much is true. Yet I can't but disagree with the other notion as well. How often do you see fan base members voting against their own players? I would guess maybe 5% of fans have the integrity to do that. Meanwhile, most of them don't struggle with their conscience when throwing a homer votes. So for example if we had a two ~equal players at the stand where one played under banner that had a fan base of 100 against another with lets say 1000 fans, it would be a land slide win for the latter. Now as for Aho vs Marner I absolutely believe Aho is not only better at the moment, but will be better in the future. He is quite literally carrying his team on his shoulders even as we speak. Can the same thing be said about Marner?

 

[ACC1224]

Did I ever claim that all neutral voters where 100% objective? Of course not, but the results from neutral fans are heck of a lot more accurate than from team fans.

Are you implying "neutral fans" don't vote if there isn't a "neutral fan" option? Why can't anyone just vote how the feel without the need for segregation?

 

[Nizdizzle]

Now as for Aho vs Marner I absolutely believe Aho is not only better at the moment, but will be better in the future. He is quite literally carrying his team on his shoulders even as we speak. Can the same thing be said about Marner?

Marner doesn't need to carry the Leafs on his back because they are a top team. He also has 21 points in his last 14 games, so were the Leafs needing carrying, I'm certain he would be doing so.

 

[ACC1224]

Marner doesn't need to carry the Leafs on his back because they are a top team. He also has 21 points in his last 14 games, so were the Leafs needing carrying, I'm certain he would be doing so.

From my biased view Marner has been carrying the Team with Matthews out. he's getting all the focus and excelling.

 

[joe dirte]

Now as for Aho vs Marner I absolutely believe Aho is not only better at the moment, but will be better in the future. He is quite literally carrying his team on his shoulders even as we speak. Can the same thing be said about Marner?

well yeah, since Matthews has been injured he's absolutely stepped up and been the go to guy. I mean, the leafs have many more options than the canes do, so no player ever has to do it on his own. but yes, he HAS been "carrying" them lately. certainly at least he's been the guy they've relied on on forward lately.

I mean, last night he set up the tying goal (beautiful set up), with 10 minutes to go in the game. then when they went down again he set up the tying goal again, his shot on net tipped, with 15 seconds to go. that's been par for the course lately. he's got a 5 poi t night and a 4 point night (in an important game against boston).

 

[joe dirte]

From my biased view Marner has been carrying the Team with Matthews out. he's getting all the focus and excelling.

he's been unbeatable lately. if the leafs get marner, Matthews, nylander, Rielly, andersen and zaitsev playing their best at once they are absolutely a contender and CAN beat Boston or Tampa. and the weak sister metro teams would be a breeze.

 

[kelsier]

Are you implying "neutral fans" don't vote if there isn't a "neutral fan" option? Why can't anyone just vote how the feel without the need for segregation?

To sole purpose to separate biased votes from the more objective ones? It'll never be perfect, but what in the world is?

Marner doesn't need to carry the Leafs on his back because they are a top team. He also has 21 points in his last 14 games, so were the Leafs needing carrying, I'm certain he would be doing so.

That's quite well indeed.

well yeah, since Matthews has been injured he's absolutely stepped up and been the go to guy. I mean, the leafs have many more options than the canes do, so no player ever has to do it on his own. but yes, he HAS been "carrying" them lately. certainly at least he's been the guy they've relied on on forward lately.

Then I'm sure we'll get to see who had it more accurate in the coming years. The first ones usually serve the purpose to indicate what can happen in the future (how well and how fast a player fits in, to what role and then some). Perhaps your vote is more right than mine or perhaps it isn't. I suppose we will see in the next 3-5 years the latest. Scoring points isn't everything, I for one think Aho will have the brighter future ahead than f.ex. Rantanen who already is flying PPG+ and these guys are from the same draft and I'm a fan of Mikko as well. Exciting times no matter how things pan out.

 

[ACC1224]

To sole purpose to separate biased votes from the more objective ones? It'll never be perfect, but what in the world is?

I don't see how that is accomplished.

 

[MattySnipes]

Both will be terrific players for their respective team, but I went with Marner because of his ability to take over a game with his smooth skating and offensive ability, his spectacular on-ice vision and underrated ability in the d-zone and o-zone at getting under players to steal pucks or regain puck possession.

On top if you look at @Cotton post, he clearly backs it up with stats as well to show you why Marner is better atm. I would take either to build a team around, can't really lose - BUT I am thrilled the Coyotes went with Strome.
Mitchy is our speedy, little magician!