Mitchell Marner vs Sebastian Aho

[GoldiFox]

Aho
5 vs 5 TOI 14:01 per game
PP TOI 2:34 per game

Marner
5 vs 5 TOI 13:02 per game
PP TOI 2:06 per game

Aho's 3 most common forward line mates, 5 vs 5
Teovo Teravainen 62 points (700:15 minutes with)
Jordan Staal 44 points (619 minutes with)
Elias Lindholm 43 points (312:28 minutes with)

Marner's most common forward linemates, 5 vs 5
Patrick Marleau 45 points (426:23 minutes with)
Tyler Bozak 42 points (422:16 minutes with)
Nazem Kadri 54 points (390:57 minutes with)
This myth of Aho doing more with less needs to die, Aho plays a significant amount of his minutes with Teravainen who would be 3rd in the leafs in terms of PPG, just behind Marner himself and Matthews who barely gets any 5 vs 5 ice time with Marner. Staal is no slouch himself either, his putting up decent production to go along with his strong defensive game.

Interesting cutoff at 3 players considering JVR has almost exactly the same 5v5 minutes with Marner as Kadri does.

Which is easy to see if you add your "Minutes With" together:
Teravainen (700:15 minutes) + Staal (619 minutes) + Lindholm (312:28 minutes) = 1632 Total Minutes
Marleau (426:23 minutes) + Bozak (422:16 minutes) + Kadri (390:57 minutes) = 1239 Total Minutes

The difference of ~390 "minutes with" is spent with JVR. Adding him would make the "Total Minutes with" apples-to-apples.

Teravainen (23G) + Staal (17G) + Lindholm (15G) = 18.33 Average Goals Per Forward
Marleau (26G) + Bozak (11G) + JVR (36G) + Kadri (31G) = 26 Average Goals Per Forward

I don't think it is necessary to explain why Marleau, JVR, and Kadri are superior offensive talents to Staal and Lindholm. Aho is indeed doing more on his own with less talent around him.

 

[LeafFever]

I've been watching hockey for over 30 years. Players on bad teams put up huge production if they are good regardless. This idea Marner is so blessed on the Leafs when Babs ditched him to the 4th line and gives him less minutes is ridiculous.
When the Leafs were horrific with almost no talent they had players putting up huge numbers. Heck, Dominic Moore put up nice numbers as he got TOI he did not deserve due to avery bad roster with the Leafs (First time in 2010-11, he had 41 points in only 63 games. Best season by far in his career on the worst roster he has played on).
Terrible excuse. Aho has always gotten more minutes with less production.

 

[GoldiFox]

I've been watching hockey for over 30 years. Players on bad teams put up huge production if they are good regardless. This idea Marner is so blessed on the Leafs when Babs ditched him to the 4th line and gives him less minutes is ridiculous... Aho has always gotten more minutes with less production.

5v5 Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	1056.78	14	21	35	26	1.99	1.48
Sebastian Aho	1079.87	17	26	43	35	2.39	1.94

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Aho has gotten 23 more minutes of total 5v5 time this year. Not sure about the "less production" though. Marner certainly has him beat on the PP, which is understandable as he is a great playmaker with three 30+ goal scorers on his PP unit (Marleau, Kadri, JVR).

 

[7even]

I'm pretty happy with Marner but Aho is in the same tier. Who's better changes with the game. That you can point out 20 different stats that favor one or the other testifies to that.

Some posters don't take Aho seriously for some reason. He's a legit player.

 

[LeafFever]

5v5 Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	1056.78	14	21	35	26	1.99	1.48
Sebastian Aho	1079.87	17	26	43	35	2.39	1.94

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Aho has gotten 23 more minutes of total 5v5 time this year. Not sure about the "less production" though. Marner certainly has him beat on the PP, which is understandable as he is a great playmaker with three 30+ goal scorers on his PP unit (Marleau, Kadri, JVR).

Now you're doing something people knocked Zeke for 5 minutes ago.(Not knocking the point because I do think 5 on is valuable).
For 2 years Marner has quite a bit better production. We know this. He got a chance to vastly increase his PP production as of late when Matthews got injured. But he has clearly been better over 2 years. His career PPG avaerge is .12 higher.

 

[lebdafor norris]

Interesting cutoff at 3 players considering JVR has almost exactly the same 5v5 minutes with Marner as Kadri does.

Which is easy to see if you add your "Minutes With" together:
Teravainen (700:15 minutes) + Staal (619 minutes) + Lindholm (312:28 minutes) = 1632 Total Minutes
Marleau (426:23 minutes) + Bozak (422:16 minutes) + Kadri (390:57 minutes) = 1239 Total Minutes

The difference of ~390 "minutes with" is spent with JVR. Adding him would make the "Total Minutes with" apples-to-apples.

Teravainen (23G) + Staal (17G) + Lindholm (15G) = 18.33 Average Goals Per Forward
Marleau (26G) + Bozak (11G) + JVR (36G) + Kadri (31G) = 26 Average Goals Per Forward

I don't think it is necessary to explain why Marleau, JVR, and Kadri are superior offensive talents to Staal and Lindholm. Aho is indeed doing more on his own with less talent around him.

Interesting using goals instead of points to judge the quality of Aho's and Marner's linemates, so is assist a worthless stat now?
Teravainen + Staal + Lindholm = 49.67 points per forward
Marleau + Bozak + JVR + Kadri = 48.75 points per forward.

5v5 Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	1056.78	14	21	35	26	1.99	1.48
Sebastian Aho	1079.87	17	26	43	35	2.39	1.94

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Aho has gotten 23 more minutes of total 5v5 time this year. Not sure about the "less production" though. Marner certainly has him beat on the PP, which is understandable as he is a great playmaker with three 30+ goal scorers on his PP unit (Marleau, Kadri, JVR).

You mean he only got 23 more minutes of 5 vs 5 time despite playing 4 less games than Marner. Not to mention Aho also played ~ 28 more overall powerplay minutes this season, yet despite all that, Marner has still outproduced him. So that whole argument about Aho doing more with less doesn't really have a leg to stand on anymore.

 

[Marner]

meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[CandyCanes]

They are both fantastic players, they are literally on the same tier currently. There's no reason to get in a pissing match on who's better, the difference of who is the better player currently is fractions of a difference. All that said I'd take Aho because Aho is a lot cooler name than Marner.

 

[RodTheBawd]

I've been watching hockey for over 30 years. Players on bad teams put up huge production if they are good regardless. This idea Marner is so blessed on the Leafs when Babs ditched him to the 4th line and gives him less minutes is ridiculous.
When the Leafs were horrific with almost no talent they had players putting up huge numbers. Heck, Dominic Moore put up nice numbers as he got TOI he did not deserve due to avery bad roster with the Leafs (First time in 2010-11, he had 41 points in only 63 games. Best season by far in his career on the worst roster he has played on).
Terrible excuse. Aho has always gotten more minutes with less production.

Oh, well then, case closed. How silly of anyone to debate with such an expert.

 

[7even]

They are both fantastic players, they are literally on the same tier currently. There's no reason to get in a pissing match on who's better, the difference of who is the better player currently is fractions of a difference. All that said I'd take Aho because Aho is a lot cooler name than Marner.

There's hundreds of Aho's listed on EliteProspects. It's like everybody has one and almost all of them stink. Literally replacement level. Marner on the other hand, is only matched by one other player in history. That's even better than generational.

 

[kelsier]

Aho runs the Canes' offence and plays excellent defense in the process. Should start next year as their first line center. I'd probably (right now) take anyone of Marner's most common line mates over Teräväinen or Staal and this compensates the difference in TOI which favors Aho. I don't mind if someone prefers Marner but there are maybe a handful of young NHL players I'd take over Aho right now and he isn't one of them. Both will be superstars no doubt about it.

 

[LeafFever]

Oh, well then, case closed. How silly of anyone to debate with such an expert.

You ignored the rest of the post then? Typical, a Leaf fan backs-up their argument with examples and stats and a non Leaf fan contributes well nothing but failed sarcasm.
Good players put up big statistics with poor teams all the time. Give Carolina decent goaltending and they are a WC team this year easily. Their forward group is not that bad. As has been proven here, Aho's linemates have produced more overall points.

 

[LakeLivin]

Dom's unbiased multifaceted Gamescore metric has Aho as a tier 4 star and Marner as a tier 5 star. Just sayin

confession: yeah, this is a quasi troll post, directed at all of the "Marner AINEC" posters. It will be interesting to see how many heads will explode.

 

[GoldiFox]

Interesting using goals instead of points to judge the quality of Aho's and Marner's linemates, so is assist a worthless stat now?
Teravainen + Staal + Lindholm = 49.67 points per forward
Marleau + Bozak + JVR + Kadri = 48.75 points per forward.



You mean he only got 23 more minutes of 5 vs 5 time despite playing 4 less games than Marner. Not to mention Aho also played ~ 28 more overall powerplay minutes this season, yet despite all that, Marner has still outproduced him. So that whole argument about Aho doing more with less doesn't really have a leg to stand on anymore.

PowerPlay Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	173	7	18	25	18	8.65	6.23
Sebastian Aho	202	8	8	16	13	4.75	3.86

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Marner is an elite Playmaker insulated by three proven 30+ goal scorers on the PP (Kadri, Marleau, JVR). He outproduces Aho significantly with a man advantage.

5v5 Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	1057	14	21	35	26	1.99	1.48
Sebastian Aho	1080	17	26	43	35	2.39	1.94

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Aho far exceeds Marner's production in 5v5 situations. Across the board Aho was the more effective Even Strength player this year. On the PP Aho plays with Teravainen (Previous career high 15 goals), Staal (Max 25 goals in past Decade), and Lindhom (Career High 17 goals).

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

PowerPlay Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	173	7	18	25	18	8.65	6.23
Sebastian Aho	202	8	8	16	13	4.75	3.86

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Marner is an elite Playmaker insulated by three proven 30+ goal scorers on the PP (Kadri, Marleau, JVR). He outproduces Aho significantly with a man advantage.

5v5 Stats for 2017-18:

	TOI	G	A	P	P1	P/60	P1/60
Mitch Marner	1057	14	21	35	26	1.99	1.48
Sebastian Aho	1080	17	26	43	35	2.39	1.94

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Aho far exceeds Marner's production in 5v5 situations. Across the board Aho was the more effective Even Strength player this year. On the PP Aho plays with Teravainen (Previous career high 15 goals), Staal (Max 25 goals in past Decade), and Lindhom (Career High 17 goals).

Lindholm is also on like a 26 game goalless streak. That’s an impressive level of futility for a guy with his kind of skill.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Marner is an elite Playmaker insulated by three proven 30+ goal scorers on the PP (Kadri, Marleau, JVR).

He doesn't play with Marleau on the PP.

Kadri's career high in goals before Marner arrived was 20. Then he got on a PP unit with Marner and has consecutive 30 goal seasons. He's not a 30 goal scorer protecting Marner, he's a guy Marner turned into a 30 goal scorer.

JVR is the only one of the three that he plays with and was a proven goal scorer before Marner joined the team. Having said that he's had a career year in PP goals this season so I'd say Marner has raised his game to another level as well.