Mitch Marner Discussion Thread

[81Leafs50]

Actually, since being drafted, he is:
-17th in points
-21st in points per game
-8th in assists

thank you for making it clear he is not the best RW in hockey or even the best playmaker.

Yet he is paid as such.

Game. Set. Match.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Unfortunately and not to sound heartless, I could care less what this kid or any other did to get here. All I want is for my team to win the Stanley Cup. If the reckless way that Dubas handed out contracts to his top players, and I believe he has, impacted our ability to acquire a supporting cast to take us over the top then I think he and the others are making too much. Saying that, he is a pleasure to watch offensively.

You are right. Sometimes everyone says stuff with a bias. Bottom line we all want the Cup. and in a CAP world it was an overpay.

 

[81Leafs50]

No, they're not, but not by as much you you probably think. In terms of offensive value:

Goal > primary assist >>>> secondary assist

COOL. Simple question. Lets say...........

Goals are Gold. Primary Assists are Silver. Secondary assists are bronze.

1 piece of Gold is worth $5. 1 piece of Silver is worth $3. 1 piece of Bronze is with $1.

Player A:
151 goals, 76 1A, 46 2A = 1,029

Player B:
81 goals, 131 1A, 69 2A = 867

Which player do you want and which player would you pay more?

 

[Dekes For Days]

thank you for making it clear he is not the best RW in hockey or even the best playmaker.

Yet he is paid as such.

He is one of the best wingers/players in the league, and one of the best playmakers in the league, as I showed. You conveniently ignored the rest of the post.

Comparing Marner at 19 with huge relative disadvantages to players in their prime with none of those disadvantages is not a proper representation of his quality of player.

His pre-signing ELC production level is among the best in the cap era. That is why he is paid as such.

 

[81Leafs50]

He is one of the best wingers/players in the league, and one of the best playmakers in the league, as I showed. You conveniently ignored the rest of the post.

Again, he is not THE BEST. Yet he is paid as such.

Thanks for coming out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

COOL. Simple question. Lets say...........
Goals are Gold. Primary Assists are Silver. Secondary assists are bronze.
1 piece of Gold is worth $5. 1 piece of Silver is worth $3. 1 piece of Bronze is with $1.

Except it's more like gold is worth $5, silver is worth just over $4, and bronze is worth less than $1.

Which would result in player A having $1,105 and player B having $998.

Which player do you want and which player would you pay more?

You do realize that Matthews has a bigger contract, right?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Again, he is not THE BEST.

I mean, he has a real case for it. If not the best, he's not far off.

Yet he is paid as such.

He's not paid as such. The players you are comparing him against signed before him, when the cap was lower, with different pre-signing production levels and circumstances.

 

[MyBudJT]

Other than trolling, why would people complain about Marner?

Since December 7th:
26GP 10G 39P (32G 123P pace)

There has only been four games he's been helf pointless in the last 26.


People tried to compare Marner to Aho, Rantanen and Point this offseason, but Marner is much better.

MM: 45GP 14G 57P

Point: 53GP 20G 53P
Aho: 55GP 30G 51P
Rantanen: 38GP 17G 37P

 

[81Leafs50]

Except it's more like gold is worth $5, silver is worth just over $4, and bronze is worth less than $1.

Which would result in player A having $1,105 and player B having $998.

You do realize that Matthews has a bigger contract, right?

either way the goal scorer has way more value. Which is another reason why Marner should never be in the same conversation as Matthews let a lone on the same pay scale.

Much like how WSH did their business. Bacsktrom $6.7M (11.2% of cap), Ovie $9,538,462 (16.82% of the cap).

 

[81Leafs50]

He's not paid as such.

Marner is the highest paid RW WINGER in hockey. Marner is also the highest paid PLAYMAKER EVER.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Marner is the highest paid RW WINGER in hockey. Marner is also the highest paid PLAYMAKER EVER.

View attachment 319293

Panarin isn't a playmaker now?

 

[81Leafs50]

Panarin isn't a playmaker now?

1. No
2. even if he was, he is averaging 30 goals a season over 5 years now. On pace for 43 goals this season.
3. He got paid as a UFA, where the bidding war drives up prices. Marner got paid as a RFA, with no bidding war.

Again the facts are not on your side.

 

[Dekes For Days]

either way the goal scorer has way more value. Which is another reason why Marner should never be in the same conversation as Matthews let a lone on the same pay scale.

They are not on the same pay scale. Matthews makes more money, and got less years.

The pay rates are not inconsistent with those values ($1,105 and $998).

Much like how WSH did their business. Bacsktrom $6.7M (11.2% of cap), Ovie $9,538,462 (16.82% of the cap).

Both of their contracts are currently illegal to sign, and have very different number of years. A direct comparison like that is not accurate.

Ovechkin and Backstrom are also way farther apart as players than Marner and Matthews.

Marner is the highest paid RW WINGER in hockey. Marner is also the highest paid PLAYMAKER EVER.

The cap is ever-rising. That means salaries rise with it. Marner just signed, and is one of the best players in the league. Of course his contract is going to be higher than those who signed years before, under different caps, after different circumstances and production levels.

He is not the highest paid playmaker ever, in cap hit or cap percentage.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Some pretty severe misunderstandings of how the contract market works here.

Other than trolling, why would people complain about Marner?

Some people are determined to be outraged and miserable, I guess. I'm not even a fan of the contract, but I also really don't care. We get to watch this beautiful boy play magical hockey, I'm not going to let a $1M cap space get in the way of that. It's an absolute blessing.

 

[81Leafs50]

They are not on the same pay scale. Matthews makes more money, and got less years.

The pay rates are not inconsistent with those values ($1,105 and $998).

Both of their contracts are currently illegal to sign, and have very different number of years. A direct comparison like that is not accurate.

Ovechkin and Backstrom are also way farther apart as players than Marner and Matthews.

The cap is ever-rising. That means salaries rise with it. Marner just signed, and is one of the best players in the league. Of course his contract is going to be higher than those who signed years before, under different caps, after different circumstances and production levels.

He is not the highest paid playmaker ever, in cap hit or cap percentage.

so based on your comments. The stats are not comparable. The contracts are not comparable. No player is comparable to another one.

Oh I see now how you think Marner is not overpaid. You are looking at him in a vacuum.

Salaries are tied to cap percentages. Bacsktrom got 11.2 % of the cap 10 years ago. He also got 11.2 of the cap last month. Yes his salary wen up but his share of the cap did not.

Marner is getting MORE of the cap on his team than any other playmaker or RW in hockey. That is the problem. The salary is just a number that is connected to the percentage.

the facts are the facts. the stats are the stats. Marner does not measure up well.

Just to recap:
Marner 17th in pts since being drafted.
- he makes more than 15 of the 17 ahead of him.

Marner is 8th in assists since being drafted
- he makes more than 6 of the 7 ahead of him.

 

[Dekes For Days]

so based on your comments. The stats are not comparable. The contracts are not comparable. No player is comparable to another one.

That's not what I said at all. I have compared Marner to multiple players over the last few pages. The way you are comparing these players is highly, highly problematic, for reasons that have been explained to you. The conclusion you are coming to about their contracts and what they should be is wrong.

Salaries are tied to cap percentages. Bacsktrom got 11.2 % of the cap 10 years ago.

On a term that is now illegal. Term affects cap percentages. Also, Backstrom was a worse player.

Marner is getting MORE of the cap on his team than any other playmaker or RW in hockey.

He is not.

the facts are the facts. the stats are the stats. Marner does not measure up well.

The facts are the facts. The stats are the stats. Marner measures up very well.

Just to recap:
Marner 17th in pts since being drafted.
- he makes more than 15 of the 17 ahead of him.
Marner is 8th in assists since being drafted
- he makes more than 6 of the 7 ahead of him.

Just to recap:

Marner had the 8th highest ES P/GP prior to signing of all players in the cap era.
Marner was the single-best producing PP player prior to signing of all players in the cap era.

He is well worth his contract.

 

[Antropovsky]

Without a doubt in the world, yes.

ELCs, when they signed:

ES P/60

Marner: 2.56
Aho: 2.17

ES P1/60

Marner: 2.06
Aho: 1.70

PP P/60

Marner: 7.19
Aho: 5.38

PP P1/60

Marner: 4.69
Aho: 3.49

Based on these rates, given equal star level opportunity (16:30 ES, 3:30 PP) over a full season, that represents a difference of 18 points. This year, that gap would be 28 points.

It should also be noted that over their careers, Aho has had his ES production significantly inflated due to scoring 12.5% of his ES points into an empty net. Marner is at 5%.

Sure in a vacuum... ignoring linemates and team defense.
Aho generally has had worse linemates and as noted Carolina generally plays a more defensive style of play. As reflected in there lower GA totals. They even have pretty bad goaltending.

A good example of this is Barzal who had 86 points before trotz took over and now hes below a point per game.

How many points would Aho have playing with Tavares and Matthews.

How much more important is goal scorers? Aho is already at 30. Etc etc

 

[Martin Skoula]

Sure in a vacuum... ignoring linemates and team defense.
Aho generally has had worse linemates and as noted Carolina generally plays a more defensive style of play. As reflected in there lower GA totals. They even have pretty bad goaltending.

A good example of this is Barzal who had 86 points before trotz took over and now hes below a point per game.

How many points would Aho have playing with Tavares and Matthews.

How much more important is goal scorers? Aho is already at 30. Etc etc

Marner has 6 more points in 10 less games than Aho. Are you going to tell me that a playoff team's forwards are so much worse than ours that they'd be responsible for dropping Aho's totals by 20+ points by the end of the year?

We're comparing a guy who's barely PPG to a guy on pace for 103 points. Worse linemates and defensive systems are not responsible for 20 points on the year unless we're comparing someone on Tampa vs Detroit.

 

[DarkKnight]

You know who leads the league in giveaways? That bum Pastrnak. Bet I can’t find one comment complaining about him on their board.

Oh, McDavid and Draisaitl too.

Terrible company.

 

[hotpaws]

Marner's overpaid but he drives the play and his deal is much better than our Captain's who's basically turned into a better version of JVR .

 

[blue stick]

You know who leads the league in giveaways? That bum Pastrnak. Bet I can’t find one comment complaining about him on their board.

Oh, McDavid and Draisaitl too.

Terrible company.

ya but he doesn't score goals...

 

[DarkKnight]

ya but he doesn't score goals...

One thing too about turnovers, he also has the puck A LOT more than most people, he’s constantly passing, so the quantity alone, his role, lends itself. I’m not saying he doesn’t need to be more careful, but when you see what he’s doing in totality, some of the stuff here is embarrassing.

 

[frizzer1]

I find this thread to be bizarre.
Marner is the most creative player ever to have played for this franchise.
And he kills penalties.
And he is among the best in the league in takeaways.
And he turns 4th liners into scoring threats.
And he has a motor.

But when he makes a bad pass or turns the puck over, this place goes nuts!.

I am just happy we have him.

 

[frizzer1]

No, they're not, but not by as much you you probably think. In terms of offensive value:

Goal > primary assist >>>> secondary assist

There are also differences in primary assists.
Just ask Tavares....who had a ton of tap ins last season resulting from marner passes.

 

[DarkKnight]

I find this thread to be bizarre.
Marner is the most creative player ever to have played for this franchise.
And he kills penalties.
And he is among the best in the league in takeaways.
And he turns 4th liners into scoring threats.
And he has a motor.

But when he makes a bad pass or turns the puck over, this place goes nuts!.

I am just happy we have him.

This x1000.