Mitch Marner Discussion Thread

[Martin Skoula]

Marner since being drafted:

25th in points per game
19th in Points
11th in assists

This is reality.

Why is Marner getting paid the best at his position?

please do not say PK. You have to do better than that.

How many of those 25 players signed contracts within a year or two of Marner's? I'd rather have Marner at 10.6 over Rantanen at 9.6 instead of getting a 2 mil 4th liner over a league min one.

 

[saffronleaf]

Marners OT assist on JT's goal against ANA was Marners 200th career assist. Matthews has 151 goals in the same time frame.

One makes 10.893M and the other one makes 11.634. Why are these guys only $741,000 apart in salary???

That's not a fair way to look at it.

Marner on his last RFA year put up 94 points. That is pretty impressive.

We've discussed to death that both Marner and Matthews probably got above-market contracts (at the time of signing). But I'm fine with that; giving an extra $1m or whatever to your premier stars is better than overspending on depth.

****ting on a 100 point winger. What a cesspool.

I think most of us (including I think you) just want to see him round out his defensive game and have more attention to detail in the neutral zone. He'll figure out.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Marner since being drafted:

25th in points per game
19th in Points
11th in assists

This is reality.

Why is Marner getting paid the best at his position?

please do not say PK. You have to do better than that.

Because not all contracts are renegotiated every year

 

[BertCorbeau]

How many of those 25 players signed contracts within a year or two of Marner's? I'd rather have Marner at 10.6 over Rantanen at 9.6 instead of getting a 2 mil 4th liner over a league min one.

NHL.com Stats

Here's the link for those 25 players... I'll let you come to your own conclusions

 

[Antropovsky]

Who do you prefer.....Aho 30 goals 51 points in 55 games. Or Marner 14 goals and 57 points in 45 games.
Carolina has scored 20 goals less than Toronto.
Carolina has allowed 34 goals less than toronto.

Is Marner 2.3 million more than Aho per season?

I didnt think he was when Aho signed and i dont think he is now.

I like Marner, but he is overpaid. Because of his contract we have holes... including our backup position.

I know Dubas was in a tough spot...but it pisses me off.

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner since being drafted:

25th in points per game
19th in Points
11th in assists

This is reality.

Why is Marner getting paid the best at his position?

please do not say PK. You have to do better than that.

why should Marner be penalized for learning the ropes during his rookie and sophomore seasons??

 

[Northernguy10]

I find Kane is more deliberate and has more precision handles. Has a better lower center of gravity and can back off guys and freeze them better. But on the other hand, he's literally an all-time great and Marner's just a kid.

Yep...Kane has already done it and Marner still has a ways to go.I was only referring to Kane's ability to make the creative plays but has long ago figured out when to do so and when not to...And of course Kane is a shooter that Marner will never be although Mitch has a quick and fairly accurate shot that should allow him to score around 30 a year....hopefully...eventually.

 

[hobarth]

NHL Salaries for 2019-20

NHL Salaries for 2019-20 | Hockey-Reference.com

I don't understand why the NHL doesn't recognize cost of living in salary calculations.

Anyway, there are a significant number of high paid wingers on this list but only one has a higher AAV contract than Marner and that's Panarin. Panarin isn't a goal scoring machine either so why are those 2 so far above other seemingly more valuable wingers, goal scorers, that's because they signed before this season not 2, 3 or even further in the past. We've seen Marner contribute to Kadri's, JT's and now Matthews' career years, coincidence, I don't think so.

Next year I expect Matthews and Marner to be on the same line for a whole year!! A whole year and I think that the longer they're together the freer Matthews feels about contributing defensively because he knows that with Marner he can expect to get the puck back in scoring positions. Now Matthews doesn't feel he has to cheat to score.

Matthews is maturing significantly this year, like Babs felt he would, but I believe Marner is his enabler.

 

[Martin Skoula]

NHL.com Stats

Here's the link for those 25 players... I'll let you come to your own conclusions

So it's just Panarin and Matthews who signed within a year, and both make more. Unless we're counting Jimmy Schuldt and Patrick Sieloff and their 1 point in 1 game.

 

[ponder]

He's my favourite player and I agree with your analysis 100%...He is very good but can get better. You've hit the nail on the head. Hopefully he's aware or will be made aware of his carelessness in the defensive and neutral zones. Creative playmakers have to understand when to be imaginative and when not to as well as when to shoot and when to pass. It seems in my limited viewing of Patrick Kane that he has , for the most part, learned this. Hopefully Marner will too.

Agreed with all of this. Marner is one of my favourite players too, and he’s certainly incredible offensively. But his carelessness with the puck and poor defensive coverage are significantly limiting his effectiveness right now. Both are areas where he’s regressed from last year, so we know he can be better here.

Agreed with Kane being a great example of a guy who makes very few careless/overly risky plays. I do think this is something Kane has always done, more than something he’s gotten way better at, but it IS a learnable skill. Marner can absolutely learn this, and can learn way better defensive coverage too - these are very common weaknesses for young players, that can be dramatically improved. Will just take strong coaching, and a lot of effort/dedication from Mitch.

 

[Stephen]

Whenever Kane is in puck carrying, dangling mode he’s usually got his feet wide apart, head up and on a swivel and his hands always seem to be far apart on the stick. Everything looks tight, it’s all precision and edge control and ready for explosive separation. Marner just has a looser everything. Stick flailing, loose gloves, casual passes to open space, floating around with no urgency on the PP. And I think he could get a lot better just incorporating more Kane type control, precision, details.

 

[81Leafs50]

Because Marner is a proven 90+ point player who likely has multiple 100 point seasons and is at the top of the league in chances generate per game. Lean off the ledge, Toronto finally has talented players for once.

this is such a BS excuse. There are many 90 pt guys or even point a game players that dont make Marners money.

so please come up with something that actually works.

 

[81Leafs50]

How many of those 25 players signed contracts within a year or two of Marner's? I'd rather have Marner at 10.6 over Rantanen at 9.6 instead of getting a 2 mil 4th liner over a league min one.

Rantonen got $9.25M. Backstrom got $9.2M

what makes Marner with his money? nothing.

 

[81Leafs50]

That's not a fair way to look at it.

Marner on his last RFA year put up 94 points. That is pretty impressive.

We've discussed to death that both Marner and Matthews probably got above-market contracts (at the time of signing). But I'm fine with that; giving an extra $1m or whatever to your premier stars is better than overspending on depth.

I think most of us (including I think you) just want to see him round out his defensive game and have more attention to detail in the neutral zone. He'll figure out.

Backstrom scored 30 goal and more than 100pts (something Marner has not done) before his ELC was done and got $6.7M (11.2% of the cap at the time), then as a UFA signed for $9.2M which is also 11.2 % of the cap.

Also Bacsktrom got $6.7M 2 YEARS AFTER Ovie got $9,538,462.

SO no playmakers do not get paid the same as goal scorers. Matthews got what he deserves. Marner is an albatross considering the Leafs PK has plummeted since Babcock put him on it.

Paying Marner the most money of any RW in hockey considering he is not TOP 10 in any stat is beyond crippling.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Somebody on TSN was quoting Julien Brisebois who said the biggest takeaway for the Lightning in their 4 game sweep at the hands of CBJ was the fact that the Lightning players were a little too arrogant when it came to their offensive dominance.

It feels like people forget to consider that Columbus was a really good team, with one of the best players in the world on it, that loaded up at the deadline massively. Their record and ranking was not a good representation of their quality of team. Add on Kucherov missing a game, and Hedman (probably their most important player) being injured the whole time, and Vasilevsky being complete garbage; it's not really fair to say that their downfall was confidence in their offensive ability.

 

[Dekes For Days]

no playmaker gets paid on par with goal scorers.

Marner is one of the best primary point producers in the league. Primary assists are also valuable.

 

[Super Mega]

He's overpaid by 1-2M...not sure what the debate is. If he makes 8-9M I don't think his salary really comes up at all.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The Leafs are paying his salary and they agreed to this contract. No need to be jealous about what other people make. A player is 1 hit or shot or shift away from retirement. And he has worked his entire life 7 days a week since 5 years of age to get to this point. And he is one of the very very few who made it. We should be happy for him. Again what most of you are truly unhappy about is the CAP. The CAP will be a thorn in our side for next few years. Hopefully in 3 years there is this long term massive US TV national contract and then Bettman can get off his soap box and we can scrap this CBA. Then we can move the crappy market teams to places who truly value the game.

 

[81Leafs50]

Marner is one of the best primary point producers in the league. Primary assists are also valuable.

I'm not saying they are not valuable. All I said was they are not as valuable as goals.

 

[81Leafs50]

The Leafs are paying his salary and they agreed to this contract. No need to be jealous about what other people make. A player is 1 hit or shot or shift away from retirement. And he has worked his entire life 7 days a week since 5 years of age to get to this point. And he is one of the very very few who made it. We should be happy for him. Again what most of you are truly unhappy about is the CAP. The CAP will be a thorn in our side for next few years. Hopefully in 3 years there is this long term massive US TV national contract and then Bettman can get off his soap box and we can scrap this CBA. Then we can move the crappy market teams to places who truly value the game.

WOW just WOW.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner since being drafted:

25th in points per game
19th in Points
11th in assists

This is reality.

Actually, since being drafted, he is:

-17th in points
-21st in points per game
-8th in assists
-9th in assists per game
-5th in primary assists
-5th in primary assists per game

He has done this, as a pre-prime kid, being compared against the best players in their prime.
He has done this while being on the 2nd/3rd/4th line for more than half of that sample.
He has done this with a split PP for more than half of that sample.
He has done this with both less ice time than many above him, and less PP time than any above him.

Since last year, playing on a proper line, with a proper 1st PP unit, still pre-prime, with less PP time, he is:

-11th in points
-10th in points per game
-3rd in assists
-3rd in assists per game
-2nd in primary assists
-2nd in primary assists per game

Since being put on a line with Matthews this year (still less PP time than his peers, pre-prime), he is:

-3rd in points
-4th in points per game
-1st in assists
-1st in assists per game
-1st in primary assists
-1st in primary assists per game

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm not saying they are not valuable. All I said was they are not as valuable as goals.

No, they're not, but not by as much you you probably think. In terms of offensive value:

Goal > primary assist >>>> secondary assist

 

[Northernguy10]

Whenever Kane is in puck carrying, dangling mode he’s usually got his feet wide apart, head up and on a swivel and his hands always seem to be far apart on the stick. Everything looks tight, it’s all precision and edge control and ready for explosive separation. Marner just has a looser everything. Stick flailing, loose gloves, casual passes to open space, floating around with no urgency on the PP. And I think he could get a lot better just incorporating more Kane type control, precision, details.

I don't necessarily agree with this. There are many different styles that are effective. When I played (a very long time ago) I could stick handle in a phone booth but had a very awkward skating style...Opposing defence men said I was difficult to defend because of that...Wayne Gretzky had a very herky jerky style and was the best offensive player in the history of the league. Kane is definitely smoother and more controlled as you say and it works also.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is Marner 2.3 million more than Aho per season?

I didnt think he was when Aho signed and i dont think he is now.

Without a doubt in the world, yes.

ELCs, when they signed:

ES P/60

Marner: 2.56
Aho: 2.17

ES P1/60

Marner: 2.06
Aho: 1.70

PP P/60

Marner: 7.19
Aho: 5.38

PP P1/60

Marner: 4.69
Aho: 3.49

Based on these rates, given equal star level opportunity (16:30 ES, 3:30 PP) over a full season, that represents a difference of 18 points. This year, that gap would be 28 points.

It should also be noted that over their careers, Aho has had his ES production significantly inflated due to scoring 12.5% of his ES points into an empty net. Marner is at 5%.

 

[killer1980]

The Leafs are paying his salary and they agreed to this contract. No need to be jealous about what other people make. A player is 1 hit or shot or shift away from retirement. And he has worked his entire life 7 days a week since 5 years of age to get to this point. And he is one of the very very few who made it. We should be happy for him.

Unfortunately and not to sound heartless, I could care less what this kid or any other did to get here. All I want is for my team to win the Stanley Cup. If the reckless way that Dubas handed out contracts to his top players, and I believe he has, impacted our ability to acquire a supporting cast to take us over the top then I think he and the others are making too much. Saying that, he is a pleasure to watch offensively.