Minnesota Wild General Discussion XVI

[MuckOG]

Something that I noticed is that the Wild didn't seem to reach out to Koivu after he retired, which was a really, really good thing. The chemistry on this team has really changed, and if we can get Suter and Parise out the door, I think you'll see a massive shift with the Wild.

I don't mind the Wild reaching out to Koivu, as long as its not about coming back as a player. Maybe he could be hired on as a European scout?

 

[57special]

Something that I noticed is that the Wild didn't seem to reach out to Koivu after he retired, which was a really, really good thing. The chemistry on this team has really changed, and if we can get Suter and Parise out the door, I think you'll see a massive shift with the Wild.

Eventually they will reach out to him, but the team, and probably Koivu, need a bit of distance first. As these things go, the " breakup" was relatively painless, and well managed on both sides.

 

[57special]

I am a believer that vets are not a problem on a team, and actually an asset, but only as long as they keep their egos in check. I never had a problem with Koivu- he just ran out of gas- and Staal showed absolutely no signs of being a prima Donna to me. All he did was outperform his contract, year after after year. I think he went through his struggle when he was with the Canes.

I always thought that Suter, as good as he was, was given too much TOI, and dominated the PP too much. Brodin, Spurgeon, Dumba, and even Scandella back in the day were more than capable of shouldering a bigger load. Parise - well, I don't know what went on in the dressing room. I had no problem with him hiring Graves to work on his game, and Lord knows Yeo's PP could use all the help it needed. Parise's big problem was his bad back, and time eroding his skills. Parise and Suter were given huge contracts to make the Wild into a perrenial Cup contender, and they never even got close to achieving that. It's pretty obvious right now that they never will be main cogs in a Cup contender, though Suter is still a useful Dman.

I don't have a problem with what fletcher tried way back when. It just didn't work, or at least fully work. We did end up with a team that made the playoffs year after year, and gave us some moments. We can assign blame to Parise, Suter, Doobs, Backstrom, Coyle, Granlund, Yeo ... It doesn't really matter. What matters is moving on in a positive manner. To me, that involves not shitting on players who did their best while playing here, yet also going through the painful process of demoting or moving star players that are no longer able to deliver what they once could. Every successful team has to do that, and they earlier they do it, the better it is for the team.
I haven't liked all'of Geurin's moves, but he is the first guy we've had who has truly addressed the Elephant in the room. It takes balls. Parise is still very popular, as was Koivu.

 

[thestonedkoala]

I don't mind the Wild reaching out to Koivu, as long as its not about coming back as a player. Maybe he could be hired on as a European scout?

He is working with the Blue Jackets in some capacity, because of their GM is Finnish and I believe has a good relation with Koivu.

 

[nickschultzfan]

I am a believer that vets are not a problem on a team, and actually an asset, but only as long as they keep their egos in check. I never had a problem with Koivu- he just ran out of gas- and Staal showed absolutely no signs of being a prima Donna to me. All he did was outperform his contract, year after after year. I think he went through his struggle when he was with the Canes.

I always thought that Suter, as good as he was, was given too much TOI, and dominated the PP too much. Brodin, Spurgeon, Dumba, and even Scandella back in the day were more than capable of shouldering a bigger load. Parise - well, I don't know what went on in the dressing room. I had no problem with him hiring Graves to work on his game, and Lord knows Yeo's PP could use all the help it needed. Parise's big problem was his bad back, and time eroding his skills. Parise and Suter were given huge contracts to make the Wild into a perrenial Cup contender, and they never even got close to achieving that. It's pretty obvious right now that they never will be main cogs in a Cup contender, though Suter is still a useful Dman.

I don't have a problem with what fletcher tried way back when. It just didn't work, or at least fully work. We did end up with a team that made the playoffs year after year, and gave us some moments. We can assign blame to Parise, Suter, Doobs, Backstrom, Coyle, Granlund, Yeo ... It doesn't really matter. What matters is moving on in a positive manner. To me, that involves not shitting on players who did their best while playing here, yet also going through the painful process of demoting or moving star players that are no longer able to deliver what they once could. Every successful team has to do that, and they earlier they do it, the better it is for the team.
I haven't liked all'of Geurin's moves, but he is the first guy we've had who has truly addressed the Elephant in the room. It takes balls. Parise is still very popular, as was Koivu.

You need a functioning hierarchy to maximize players and minimize attitudes. Guerin needed to clean up the top and allow a new group to take over leadership.

If Staal, Koivu, Parise, or Suter were on different teams (and slightly younger), they could come into a better lead Wild team and probably be ok (we are seeing that a bit with Suter), but they have to be the #5-10 guys, not the #1-4 guys.

 

[BigT2002]

You need a functioning hierarchy to maximize players and minimize attitudes. Guerin needed to clean up the top and allow a new group to take over leadership.

If Staal, Koivu, Parise, or Suter were on different teams (and slightly younger), they could come into a better lead Wild team and probably be ok (we are seeing that a bit with Suter), but they have to be the #5-10 guys, not the #1-4 guys.

And a lot of this history probably starts with Fletcher and the first two coaching hires.

Todd Richards was only brought in, frankly, because he had Minnesota roots and that was the direction they were going. For whatever reason, Fletcher was listening to a fanbase (or owner?) that was demanding to have more "hometown boys" on the team. They were actively moving away from Canadian players it felt like and getting more in the mix for either US born, or if they could -- Minnesota attribution at some point in their development. Hence why I still think they took Nick Leddy with that 1st round pick that first year of the Fletcher era. It is a constant thing I hear from some of the older fans around my seats -- "we need more of MN born players! Look at the state tourney and player A from EP/Wayzata/Lakeville South..." It is daunting and thankfully that experiment appeared to end decently quick.

I truly believe Yeo was brought in to develop the new core of the team, with Koivu relegated to being that player/coach role to help bring along players like Haula/Granlund. I do not think Yeo was the full term solution, or expected to ever win the Cup in his tenure. Most likely being here for 3-5 years tops to develop the core, much like Houston. It also didn't hurt he had Penguin ties, which Fletcher was trying to reproduce that style of play. Where the plan went completely south was when Parise/Suter went onto FA and Minnesota was actually a candidate based on where their families. Recall, they've said time and time again after those signings they liked Minnesota because they would be closer to homes. Before those signings, I personally don't think there was any realistic expectation that the Wild would be in playoff contention. Yeo was going to be the "perfect guy" to develop the team's youth for 2-3 years and then fired when a desired NHL coach became available. Those signings shifted the entire focus and now the expectation was to be playoff bound consistently, putting pressure on Yeo/Fletcher to get moving much quicker than they anticipated. I think Parise/Suter/Koivu gave Yeo the benefit of the doubt the first couple years and when things were not panning out like they thought it should, they started doing their own thing. Because again, who is this guy that has never played in the NHL or had an offensive career in the AHL even going to tell me, Captain America or Kaptain Finn, that we need do something differently?! They simply just tuned him out.

Thus, much like in 2003, the experiment was a failure because expectations changed so much quicker than what the Wild were ready for. In 2003, it was the lack of draft lottery picks that ultimately would have led to better players to start letting go the awful ones that were available in the expansion draft. In 2014, it was Yeo not having time to develop his style of play and get the players up to speed from their drafting. Instead, Fletcher had to start panic trading if talent was available to help make the team better. Which the only capital he had to work with were: Draft Picks and Prospects.

Much of those picks were done to keep the vets happy, as they were the reliance to both mentor and carry the team forward. When players like Zucker finally turned the corner, you saw some relegation in his PP time. When Dumba starting shooting rockets from the blueline, you never saw him on the PP. I wonder if much of that was, special teams was a quick way to hopefully build up stats, and the vets believed they were better suited to consistently score on them? It also felt like Fetcher bowed to their demands quite a bit. Most likely because he was still hoping Koivu/Staal/Parise/Suter could turn the corner like Pittsburgh did.

I feel like during those two coaching regimes, the most damage was done to the team that set it back by a decade.

 

[Aurinko]

Looks expensive.

Kapri and Fiala are something you can't do much about, but it was easy to foresee Ek's value will go up (even I mentioned last year his price will skyrocket). He's been a complete player with plus stat since the beginning and the longer he plays with Greenway & Foligno, the more expensive next contract will be.

This is bit of a management short sightedness in my opinion.

 

[nickschultzfan]

And a lot of this history probably starts with Fletcher and the first two coaching hires.

Todd Richards was only brought in, frankly, because he had Minnesota roots and that was the direction they were going. For whatever reason, Fletcher was listening to a fanbase (or owner?) that was demanding to have more "hometown boys" on the team. They were actively moving away from Canadian players it felt like and getting more in the mix for either US born, or if they could -- Minnesota attribution at some point in their development. Hence why I still think they took Nick Leddy with that 1st round pick that first year of the Fletcher era. It is a constant thing I hear from some of the older fans around my seats -- "we need more of MN born players! Look at the state tourney and player A from EP/Wayzata/Lakeville South..." It is daunting and thankfully that experiment appeared to end decently quick.

I truly believe Yeo was brought in to develop the new core of the team, with Koivu relegated to being that player/coach role to help bring along players like Haula/Granlund. I do not think Yeo was the full term solution, or expected to ever win the Cup in his tenure. Most likely being here for 3-5 years tops to develop the core, much like Houston. It also didn't hurt he had Penguin ties, which Fletcher was trying to reproduce that style of play. Where the plan went completely south was when Parise/Suter went onto FA and Minnesota was actually a candidate based on where their families. Recall, they've said time and time again after those signings they liked Minnesota because they would be closer to homes. Before those signings, I personally don't think there was any realistic expectation that the Wild would be in playoff contention. Yeo was going to be the "perfect guy" to develop the team's youth for 2-3 years and then fired when a desired NHL coach became available. Those signings shifted the entire focus and now the expectation was to be playoff bound consistently, putting pressure on Yeo/Fletcher to get moving much quicker than they anticipated. I think Parise/Suter/Koivu gave Yeo the benefit of the doubt the first couple years and when things were not panning out like they thought it should, they started doing their own thing. Because again, who is this guy that has never played in the NHL or had an offensive career in the AHL even going to tell me, Captain America or Kaptain Finn, that we need do something differently?! They simply just tuned him out.

Thus, much like in 2003, the experiment was a failure because expectations changed so much quicker than what the Wild were ready for. In 2003, it was the lack of draft lottery picks that ultimately would have led to better players to start letting go the awful ones that were available in the expansion draft. In 2014, it was Yeo not having time to develop his style of play and get the players up to speed from their drafting. Instead, Fletcher had to start panic trading if talent was available to help make the team better. Which the only capital he had to work with were: Draft Picks and Prospects.

Much of those picks were done to keep the vets happy, as they were the reliance to both mentor and carry the team forward. When players like Zucker finally turned the corner, you saw some relegation in his PP time. When Dumba starting shooting rockets from the blueline, you never saw him on the PP. I wonder if much of that was, special teams was a quick way to hopefully build up stats, and the vets believed they were better suited to consistently score on them? It also felt like Fetcher bowed to their demands quite a bit. Most likely because he was still hoping Koivu/Staal/Parise/Suter could turn the corner like Pittsburgh did.

I feel like during those two coaching regimes, the most damage was done to the team that set it back by a decade.

Fair history of the Wild. I agree that getting Parise and Suter changed the Wild from a developmental team to a playoff team, which hurt the franchise in the near term.

I think Fenton and Guerin correctly stripped that team build away and built again from the ground up.

For that reason, I would hate to see us jump the gun again to grab Eichel at the cost of hollowing out the core of the new Wild. If the price is too high, my preference is to stay the course. JEE and Sturm will get even better. Boldy will be very good. Rossi will be very good. Khovanov, Beckman, and Marat may take a bit, but will be good as well.

 

[guitarhunterdude]

Fair history of the Wild. I agree that getting Parise and Suter changed the Wild from a developmental team to a playoff team, which hurt the franchise in the near term.

I think Fenton and Guerin correctly stripped that team build away and built again from the ground up.

For that reason, I would hate to see us jump the gun again to grab Eichel at the cost of hollowing out the core of the new Wild. If the price is too high, my preference is to stay the course. JEE and Sturm will get even better. Boldy will be very good. Rossi will be very good. Khovanov, Beckman, and Marat may take a bit, but will be good as well.

Not to rain too hard on you parade, but all that just doesn't seem realistic to me. Ek and Sturm are in their prime. Boldy I have high hopes for; maybe even a first-liner. Rossi I can't see being more than a 2nd liner given he missed anpretty crucial year of development, but if anyone has both the work ethic and skill to prove me wrong on that front, it's him. Expecting more than 1 of Khovanov, Marat and Beckman to make a significant NHL impact seems like pretty long odds (and I LOVE Marat and like Beckman).

I think Kap being such a stud cut off our rebuild prematurely and we're probably going to be a tweener team just like the previous decade, when we ideally would've been able to get a Wright, Bedard, Michkov kind of prospect. Victims of our own success

 

[nickschultzfan]

Not to rain too hard on you parade, but all that just doesn't seem realistic to me. Ek and Sturm are in their prime. Boldy I have high hopes for; maybe even a first-liner. Rossi I can't see being more than a 2nd liner given he missed anpretty crucial year of development, but if anyone has both the work ethic and skill to prove me wrong on that front, it's him. Expecting more than 1 of Khovanov, Marat and Beckman to make a significant NHL impact seems like pretty long odds (and I LOVE Marat and like Beckman).

I think Kap being such a stud cut off our rebuild prematurely and we're probably going to be a tweener team just like the previous decade, when we ideally would've been able to get a Wright, Bedard, Michkov kind of prospect. Victims of our own success

Ok. Time to get out is now.

 

[63firebird]

You need a functioning hierarchy to maximize players and minimize attitudes. Guerin needed to clean up the top and allow a new group to take over leadership.

If Staal, Koivu, Parise, or Suter were on different teams (and slightly younger), they could come into a better lead Wild team and probably be ok (we are seeing that a bit with Suter), but they have to be the #5-10 guys, not the #1-4 guys.

You are correct. It wasn’t their fault. It was the situation they were put in. A better approach would to say I like the style of the current coach and GM. Never perfect but a better design for modern NHL-The world international elite hockey league.

 

[Northerner]

The 2017-2018 Staal would obviously fit the team, but I'm thinking the current Staal could not make this team better. Team looks young, fast and energetic... and that is opposite of what Staal would bring.

Bjugstad? I would call Bjugstad a "poor man's Staal", but Bjugstad never produced goals like Staal. Size-wize, I think they are similar.


Personally I would rather have Donato on the team than Bjugstad.

 

[MuckOG]

 

[BigT2002]

Not to rain too hard on you parade, but all that just doesn't seem realistic to me. Ek and Sturm are in their prime. Boldy I have high hopes for; maybe even a first-liner. Rossi I can't see being more than a 2nd liner given he missed anpretty crucial year of development, but if anyone has both the work ethic and skill to prove me wrong on that front, it's him. Expecting more than 1 of Khovanov, Marat and Beckman to make a significant NHL impact seems like pretty long odds (and I LOVE Marat and like Beckman).

I think Kap being such a stud cut off our rebuild prematurely and we're probably going to be a tweener team just like the previous decade, when we ideally would've been able to get a Wright, Bedard, Michkov kind of prospect. Victims of our own success

Its a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation in my book. I think you're right that many of those players listed could be on the roster next year, and hopefully make impacts. What it feels like the Wild severely have lacked in the last 5 years is confidence in their farm system to develop their roster internally. Instead, they go out and get players like Bjugstad or Johansson. Sure absolutely low-risk acquisitions, but why are you doing it? Is there no one down in Iowa that is capable of playing in the Wild's offensive/defensive scheme? Are they being taught it properly down there or not? If not, then why the heck hasn't their been a leadership change in the coaching staff?

The one thing that is getting really old with the Wild (and any MN sports team for that matter) is the constant "Wait until next year!" mentality that plagues the waning weeks of their season leading into the offseason.

With that said, my own personal opinion, I think an Eichel trade would never happen anyway. I agree with the sentiments if their is a legit 1C, you go get them while you can. However, maybe I'm just really gunshy with the Wild getting someone like that, knowing our history (and even the history of many 1Cs who leave and fizzle) of trading for big name players. Will they work in the scheme? Will they play nicely with other players? Will they like living in Minnesota? What will it be like for them to play against Chicago/St. Louis/Dallas/Nashville teams as opposed to who they play now? What will the amount of travel the Wild do have an affect on their game when they are playing 2 hours behind in timezones while out in the West Coast?

Not to mention getting him just feels super similar to Gaborik. You're going to have this stud of a player and effectively garbage around him that he alone is going to have to pick up on his back.

 

[MNNumbers]

What we really need is a total game breaker. Kaprisov might become that. Fiala, skilled though he is, is NOT a total game breaker. He's good, mind you, but not quite the next level.

The question in regard to an Eichel level center is: at what cost? It seems, from reports here, that currently, the Wild minor league/development system is fairly stacked. I mean, we keep talking about Boldy, Rossi, Beckman, Addison, Menell, etc. If those guys are really as good as they are made out to be here, our system should be the envy of the league.

Question: Is it better to spend a few of those pieces to go for a legit 1C? Or, can we guess that one of those is "the guy"?

 

[BigT2002]

What we really need is a total game breaker. Kaprisov might become that. Fiala, skilled though he is, is NOT a total game breaker. He's good, mind you, but not quite the next level.

The question in regard to an Eichel level center is: at what cost? It seems, from reports here, that currently, the Wild minor league/development system is fairly stacked. I mean, we keep talking about Boldy, Rossi, Beckman, Addison, Menell, etc. If those guys are really as good as they are made out to be here, our system should be the envy of the league.

Question: Is it better to spend a few of those pieces to go for a legit 1C? Or, can we guess that one of those is "the guy"?

I speculate that most will believe Rossi is the legit 1C potential based on his draft capital last year. Missing this year sucked, but most likely the thought process is you bring in someone like Eichel who can be a 1C for 5 or so years and then drop to 2C while Rossi moves to 1C.

My massive reservation with it is the same reason many will say they want Eichel: Eichel is a sure bet while we don't know what Rossi, or the others, will have for a floor/ceiling when it comes to their progression. So hedge on the safer bet. My worry is the Wild's track record with trading for players that are supposed to be good and they just collapse when they get here.

 

[nickschultzfan]

I speculate that most will believe Rossi is the legit 1C potential based on his draft capital last year. Missing this year sucked, but most likely the thought process is you bring in someone like Eichel who can be a 1C for 5 or so years and then drop to 2C while Rossi moves to 1C.

My massive reservation with it is the same reason many will say they want Eichel: Eichel is a sure bet while we don't know what Rossi, or the others, will have for a floor/ceiling when it comes to their progression. So hedge on the safer bet. My worry is the Wild's track record with trading for players that are supposed to be good and they just collapse when they get here.

Rossi is a sure bet to be an NHL center. We can debate whether he will be a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th line center, but chances that he will not be an NHL regular is below 5%.

 

[MNNumbers]

I speculate that most will believe Rossi is the legit 1C potential based on his draft capital last year. Missing this year sucked, but most likely the thought process is you bring in someone like Eichel who can be a 1C for 5 or so years and then drop to 2C while Rossi moves to 1C.

My massive reservation with it is the same reason many will say they want Eichel: Eichel is a sure bet while we don't know what Rossi, or the others, will have for a floor/ceiling when it comes to their progression. So hedge on the safer bet. My worry is the Wild's track record with trading for players that are supposed to be good and they just collapse when they get here.

I understand what you mean. I have reservations on Eichel particularly because I don't trust his neck. That's a potential deal breaker, so if there is no guarantee about his health, I am not interested.

As for the rest, I would be fine going forward with the idea of having, in a couple more years, something like:
Kap-Rossi-Zucc
Fiala-Sturm-Boldy
Foligno-Ek-Greenway
Beckman-Hartman-??

Of course, that requires nothing at present. On the way there, however, I wouldn't at all mind a mid-level 1 or 2 year contract for a veteran C to fit between Kap and Rossi, as an upgrade to Rask.

 

[2Pair]

What we really need is a total game breaker. Kaprisov might become that. Fiala, skilled though he is, is NOT a total game breaker. He's good, mind you, but not quite the next level.

The question in regard to an Eichel level center is: at what cost? It seems, from reports here, that currently, the Wild minor league/development system is fairly stacked. I mean, we keep talking about Boldy, Rossi, Beckman, Addison, Menell, etc. If those guys are really as good as they are made out to be here, our system should be the envy of the league.

Question: Is it better to spend a few of those pieces to go for a legit 1C? Or, can we guess that one of those is "the guy"?

Kaprisov and Fiala are both "game breakers".

What the Wild need is a GM that can put decent pieces around his "game breakers". Even guys like McDavid can be solved when they're playing by themselves. It's one thing to try and excuse the fact the Guerin hasn't found an elite level center yet in his 2 years in charge. The fact that his most skilled center currently is Victor Rask, is completely inexcusable.

This will be the 2nd trip to the playoffs that Guerin has just thrown in the trash because he hasn't done a f***ing thing to help his team.

 

[2Pair]

Rossi is a sure bet to be an NHL center. We can debate whether he will be a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th line center, but chances that he will not be an NHL regular is below 5%.

Rossi is just about as far from a sure bet as anyone could be right now, and your made up statistics don't do anything to help the matter.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Kaprisov and Fiala are both "game breakers".

What the Wild need is a GM that can put decent pieces around his "game breakers". Even guys like McDavid can be solved when they're playing by themselves. It's one thing to try and excuse the fact the Guerin hasn't found an elite level center yet in his 2 years in charge. The fact that his most skilled center currently is Victor Rask, is completely inexcusable.

This will be the 2nd trip to the playoffs that Guerin has just thrown in the trash because he hasn't done a f***ing thing to help his team.

Talbot > Stalock is a thing.

 

[2Pair]

Talbot > Stalock is a thing.

playing with an empty net > Stalock/Dubnyk. Although, playoff Talbot is starting to look like playoff Dubnyk.

But, you're right, Billy G did a great job by going out and getting an average NHL level goaltender.

 

[MNNumbers]

playing with an empty net > Stalock/Dubnyk. Although, playoff Talbot is starting to look like playoff Dubnyk.

But, you're right, Billy G did a great job by going out and getting an average NHL level goaltender.

If the discussion is whether Guerin has actually accomplished anything.....

So far, the only thing he has done is to allow Stahl and Koivu to depart. That is, of course, the reason we have no centers. It's the long term lack of action, which finally showed itself this year.

Talbot is 'average' rather than super, to the point where even if he goes unprotected in the ED, there is no guarantee Seattle needs him.

However, I think this is actually the way most of the league works. Look who the GMs are.....it's all guys with long term careers in hockey, but little vision. Look at the threads on this site about coaches. There is rarely in this league any new 'vision'. It's the same old 'recycle the old ideas.' That's how you get playoff officiating like we have this year. There is nothing new ever.

As far as presently.....there is nothing which can be done, really, to fix this year. I would hope tonight would be better, and we head to Vegas and 11,000 fans at 2-2. We might even with this series. But, it won't matter, because Colorado is on another level.

If someone is tired of "wait until our prospects develop", then go for Eichel. If someone is higher on the prospects, then it would still be good to try to grab a 1 or 2 year C this off season. And, I might add, I'd be fine with that if the result were losing both Dumba and Soucy from the roster.

In other words, get what you can for the C position using Dumba a pick or two, and let Seattle take Soucy if they want him. If they don't, we might lose a goalie, but there are average goalies around....

And, I enjoy 2Pair and his flair for the dramatic in the way the posts.....

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

playing with an empty net > Stalock/Dubnyk. Although, playoff Talbot is starting to look like playoff Dubnyk.

But, you're right, Billy G did a great job by going out and getting an average NHL level goaltender.

So did he do f***ing thing or didn’t he?

 

[2Pair]

So did he do f***ing thing or didn’t he?

He didn't do a f***ing thing to help the team at last years deadline to help his team.
He didn't do a f***ing thing at this years deadline to help his team.

He did sign a decent option in net over the offseason(although Talbot hasn't been good for more than a month)

But yes, you win yet another "semantics" war without actually having a point. Congrats

Hard to imagine picking today to fanboy for Bill Guerin