Mike Babcock discussion part 3.

[ShaneFalco]

Maybe firing the inexperienced GM over the proven coach would be the safer choice for this franchise at this time. Our window is closing fast with JT already regressing and cap issues. An experienced GM who will compromise a little with Babcock will probably again be the safer bet...

Because experience always equates to winning. Blow it up and re-structure a team around a coach who won a decade + ago. We should have done the same with carlyle - molded the team around him because he won a cup once

 

[Rob Brown]

Because experience always equates to winning. Blow it up and re-structure a team around a coach who won a decade + ago. We should have done the same with carlyle - molded the team around him because he won a cup once

The thing is I don't even think this team is really built or designed around Babcock, hence the problems.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

At this point I rather Dubas get fired and bring in a GM who will work with Babcock just to see what the real problem is. But in the end I think we will all agree that Shanny SHOULD HAVE KEPT LOU!

You would rather have Marleau, Zaitsev than one of Marner or Nylander?

 

[ShaneFalco]

The thing is I don't even think this team is really built or designed around Babcock, hence the problems.

Nope, just not a good fit here. But you'd think the highest paid coach in the league could adapt maybe? Work with what he has and use the team's strengths.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

we are clearly not watching the same games.

Well, you were watching Rielly - Hainsey play with one of the top elite lines in the league. This year you're seeing Rielly - Ceci play with a 3rd/4th line caliber line (Tavares line has struggled that bad). So sorry if I don't trust your eyes

 

[Fogelhund]

At this point I rather Dubas get fired and bring in a GM who will work with Babcock just to see what the real problem is. But in the end I think we will all agree that Shanny SHOULD HAVE KEPT LOU!

No, we shouldn't have kept Lou.

 

[Legendary]

Can we swap Lou and trotz for Dubas and Babcock

 

[Fogelhund]

Well, you were watching Rielly - Hainsey play with one of the top elite lines in the league. This year you're seeing Rielly - Ceci play with a 3rd/4th line caliber line (Tavares line has struggled that bad). So sorry if I don't trust your eyes

Rielly is an exceptional hockey player, but he never has been, nor will he every likely be an exceptional defensive zone player. In hindsight, Hainsey helped Rielly's game, and wasn't the boat anchor fans made him out to be. That being said, we've been talking about this for years, the need for a defensive guy for Rielly, but clearly better than Hainsey. We've talked about Tanev, Pesce, Spurgeon and so on.... Ceci has actually been ok, better than I expected, but he isn't what we need for Rielly.

Hainsey at one year for $3.5 million, would have been better than Ceci and his deal... again, hindsight, and hopefully all involved learn from this.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Rielly is an exceptional hockey player, but he never has been, nor will he every likely be an exceptional defensive zone player. In hindsight, Hainsey helped Rielly's game, and wasn't the boat anchor fans made him out to be. That being said, we've been talking about this for years, the need for a defensive guy for Rielly, but clearly better than Hainsey. We've talked about Tanev, Pesce, Spurgeon and so on.... Ceci has actually been ok, better than I expected, but he isn't what we need for Rielly.

Hainsey at one year for $3.5 million, would have been better than Ceci and his deal... again, hindsight, and hopefully all involved learn from this.

Ceci was the cost of dumping Zaitsev. AND let's not forget we got Harpur

 

[ToMaLe]

Nope, just not a good fit here. But you'd think the highest paid coach in the league could adapt maybe? Work with what he has and use the team's strengths.

Your right but he can’t adapt, too stubborn and set in his ways. Instead of working with what he has and use a system to play to the teams strengths, he blames everyone and their dog except himself of course. And when once asked about one of his many questionable moves after a loss he storms off the set, as someone dared question the mighty Babcock. What an arrogant egotistic clown.

 

[Fogelhund]

Can we swap Lou and trotz for Dubas and Babcock

I don't think that they've got a recipe for success there, at least not long-term. It's one of those everyone rowing the same direction, vastly outplaying the sum of parts. It doesn't last.

I'd rather have the parts that on paper are better, and tinker with it, to get it to work long-term. So far we haven't looked great, but are far from out of it, and have many (most) of the pieces needed to be successful. A coach, and probably a change of maybe three skaters... and a backup (probably) , and this team should be able to play with anyone.

 

[Fogelhund]

Ceci was the cost of dumping Zaitsev. AND let's not forget we got Harpur

Ceci was the cost of dumping Zaitsev... yes, but we didn't have to resign him. Maybe keeping Hainsey at $3 mil for a year would have been better... I mean, I wouldn't have suggested that at the time... but looking back at it now... hmmm.

 

[Legendary]

Shanahan needs to make a choice as hard as it may be, he’s payed handsomely to do so

 

[Legendary]

Getting rid of Mcbackup started this spiral to the bottom. This doesn’t look good on Dubas

 

[Fogelhund]

Getting rid of Mcbackup started this spiral to the bottom. This doesn’t look good on Dubas

We've been over that a hundred times... the answer to that is Sparks was the right decision, it just didn't work out.

 

[Martin Skoula]

The thing is I don't even think this team is really built or designed around Babcock, hence the problems.

No team is ever built around a coach. Why would you? They have a shelf life of 5 years at best usually, do you rebuild the team when you fire them?

 

[Legendary]

Players have shown they hesitate to stick up for each other. Last game against the isles was an embarrassment for JT and most likely will be again tonight.

 

[Legendary]

We've been over that a hundred times... the answer to that is Sparks was the right decision, it just didn't work out.

Going with the unproven over the proven does seem to be the new philosophy with management and fans

 

[Fogelhund]

Going with the unproven over the proven does seem to be the new philosophy with management and fans

So, you draft a kid in 2011, develop for years, he is outstanding for you in the minors... has the following accolades...

• • U20 WJC Gold Medal
• 2014-2015
  • ECHL Best SVS% (.936)
  • ECHL Goaltender of the Week (02/02-02/08)
• 2015-2016
  • AHL Goaltender of the Month (November)
  • AHL Player of the Week (Nov. 8)
  • ECHL Alumnus of the Month (November)
• 2017-2018
  • AHL Best GAA (1.79)
  • AHL Best Goaltender (Baz Bastien Memorial Award)
  • AHL Best Goaltending Duo (Harry Holmes Memorial Award)
  • AHL Best SVS% (.936)
  • AHL Calder Cup Champion
  • AHL First All-Star Team
  • AHL Most Wins (31)

and you let him go in favour of a mid 30's guy, who just had a year that was unprecedented in his career previously?

You've got an upcoming very good goalie, and you just let him go, for someone with a very limited shelf life?

Sparks was on a trajectory, that could have seem him be a future starter, cheaper replacement for Andersen.

Sure, it didn't work out... but you develop a prospect for seven years, and he succeeds at every level, you give him the chance.

 

[Legendary]

Picking the loud mouth rookie who inappropriately called out his team over the calm collected backup (which is attained through experience) was the mistake yes

 

[Mess]

Maybe firing the inexperienced GM over the proven coach would be the safer choice for this franchise at this time. Our window is closing fast with JT already regressing and cap issues. An experienced GM who will compromise a little with Babcock will probably again be the safer bet...

Perhaps like Lou Lam for example who with Babcock just 2 short years ago established a new 100 year all-time record for points by a Leaf team ever.

Then Leafs changed GMs and the team results have continued to decline while the coach remained the the same throughout.

Since Babcock didn't forget how to coach from 2018 to today, you might be on to something as its the GM that changed and his player personnel decisions that followed that are resulting in worse results. Simple Math suggest factor out the common denominator the coach from both situations and what is left as different is at the root of why the results are different and this case getting worse, to help isolate the problem.

So now its seems the next illogical decision would be to remove the coach who is 7th all time in wins with a coach with less wins and less experience, perhaps even with one in Sheldon Keefe who has zero NHL coach experience to match the inexperienced GMs vision better.

The blind leading the blind so to speak as the plan to increase Leafs success by removing experience and past success.

To further emphasize the importance of GM experience the departed Lou Lam took a weaker team NYI, lost their franchise player to free agency to Leafs and guided his team to more points in the regular season to the team that added a franchise centre and advanced to the 2nd of the playoffs last year.

 

[Stephen]

Rielly - Ceci has been better than Rielly - Hainsey easily IMO.

The major difference we see this year is that Hyman - Tavares - Marner, the line that absolutely dominated the NHL at 5v5 and all-around, is incredibly cold (or injured). Tavares and Marner have produced at a 4th line rate at 5v5 this year. That sucks for Rielly - Ceci, who are paired with that line for majority of the game.

Rielly and Ceci are terrible. They aren’t better than Rielly Hainsey. We haven’t felt this level of defensive insecurity from a top pair for a number of years dating back to the Carlyle era now for the ineptitude of that duo. And I’m a huge Rielly fan.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Rielly is an exceptional hockey player, but he never has been, nor will he every likely be an exceptional defensive zone player. In hindsight, Hainsey helped Rielly's game, and wasn't the boat anchor fans made him out to be. That being said, we've been talking about this for years, the need for a defensive guy for Rielly, but clearly better than Hainsey. We've talked about Tanev, Pesce, Spurgeon and so on.... Ceci has actually been ok, better than I expected, but he isn't what we need for Rielly.

Hainsey at one year for $3.5 million, would have been better than Ceci and his deal... again, hindsight, and hopefully all involved learn from this.

I disagree with your Hainsey points (Hainsey was especially bad in the last half of the season).

But I do agree the search for a partner for Rielly has been going on forever. I like that dubas has addressed the D by going after Muzzin, Barrie, Ceci. But we need a long-term stable partner for Rielly. Tanev is a UFA this season but he's getting older and is injury prone.

 

[Teeder Keon]

So, you draft a kid in 2011, develop for years, he is outstanding for you in the minors... has the following accolades...
Great job !

• • U20 WJC Gold Medal
• 2014-2015
  • ECHL Best SVS% (.936)
  • ECHL Goaltender of the Week (02/02-02/08)
• 2015-2016
  • AHL Goaltender of the Month (November)
  • AHL Player of the Week (Nov. 8)
  • ECHL Alumnus of the Month (November)
• 2017-2018
  • AHL Best GAA (1.79)
  • AHL Best Goaltender (Baz Bastien Memorial Award)
  • AHL Best Goaltending Duo (Harry Holmes Memorial Award)
  • AHL Best SVS% (.936)
  • AHL Calder Cup Champion
  • AHL First All-Star Team
  • AHL Most Wins (31)

and you let him go in favour of a mid 30's guy, who just had a year that was unprecedented in his career previously?

You've got an upcoming very good goalie, and you just let him go, for someone with a very limited shelf life?

Sparks was on a trajectory, that could have seem him be a future starter, cheaper replacement for Andersen.

Sure, it didn't work out... but you develop a prospect for seven years, and he succeeds at every level, you give him the chance.

 

[Judas Tavares]

Maybe down the line Dubas should get fired, but before Babcock? That would be lunacy. Babcock should be able to piece something together with the talent he has, even if let's say one pairing isn't perfect. Or one line is still iffy. He should still be able to make something out of it. Does he need 20 of the perfect players handed to him on a silver platter for it work? If that's the case, he's not a good coach. Look at the Islanders d-parings ffs. Trotz can work with those and seemingly make them a Jennings trophy team. Babcock should be able to make something out of what he has to work with.