Prospect Info: Michael McCarron

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Sorinth

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Are we discussing hockey or biology?

Paging @Ozymandias .

As for the observation that you're making, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Part of the reason that said players practised more as kids was that their talent level enabled them to enjoy it more.

They weren't just "working hard", they were having fun. And their natural talent level was a prequisite for that.

The fact that Subban was such a great player probably contributed to his motivation.

More biology since the same is true no matter the activity. The fact that it was fun/play and not work absolutely contributed to why they ended up with so many hours of practice. But I disagree that natural talent is a prerequisite to having fun and therefore getting those hours of practice.

EDIT: It's also a bit irrelevant since the OP that started this was someone claiming if they were in McCarron's shoes they would work much harder then he has to get better. If that were true he would've made it or at least gotten close.
 

cajmonkey

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Guess my 12hr weekends, 4hr weekday, and random midnight skates in the dark after sneaking out of the house, on top of regular games and practices was me being lazy, since hard work could have guaranteed an NHL career.

Smh
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Are we discussing hockey or biology?

Paging @Ozymandias .

As for the observation that you're making, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Part of the reason that said players practised more as kids was that their talent level enabled them to enjoy it more.

They weren't just "working hard", they were having fun. And their natural talent level was a prequisite for that.

The fact that Subban was such a great player probably contributed to his motivation.

The golden rule of developmental biology is that there is no genetic expression (histone acetylation, turning on certain genes and dna methylation = genes shutting down) without an environmental catalyst. Our environments can be very different and lead to very different human beings.

The genome is a spectrum of reactions to similar cues and we mostly have all the same basic reactions because our basic biology is the same. Also, epigenetic effects can be passed down but only if there isn't a confounding factor (environmental) that changes the particular effect.

There are always genetic factors, but their impact is far less than stated and often disregards the fact that common genetic traits and expressions are present because they were first catalysed by environmental (common or converging) cues.

Case in point shouldn't be where it went right (Subban, ect), but where it went wrong: feral children & child abuse.

Children who were deprived of love have similar reactions. Children who were deprived of light do not develop eyesight. Children who were deprived of the necessary cues for social interactions develop similarly, with the same lack of sociability. Children who have lived through severe abuse and trauma have similar mental disorders. Feral children who grew-up at a specific age among animals were never able to develop basic language skills until very late in their lives. The insult to their development at the particular stage was crucial in staunting a skill that is all and only human.

A potential is nothing without its proper lever.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Guess my 12hr weekends, 4hr weekday, and random midnight skates in the dark after sneaking out of the house, on top of regular games and practices was me being lazy, since hard work could have guaranteed an NHL career.

Smh

It's not just hard work.

There are a bazillion factors that come into play and many traits and outcomes that need to go right and many of them are psychological and are directly related to how basal levels of your entire neuroendocrinological make-up are set in the prenatal period and then comes the social environment of the post natal period and formative years. And that's the tip of the iceberg and comprises the almost infinite myriad of ways parents deal with their children.

The genetic answer is far from being the be-all end-all holy grail that is widely but wrongfuly believed.
 
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Scriptor

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It's about as absurd as someone thinking that anyone can become a Crosby, Gretzky, Lemieux or Mcdavid just by training hard.

No, not as absurd because that's not what he wrote. Untalented players make the NHL because of effort. I definitely would have been one of those if I'd put in the time and made the NHL.
 

Habsddicted

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No, not as absurd because that's not what he wrote. Untalented players make the NHL because of effort. I definitely would have been one of those if I'd put in the time and made the NHL.


Lol I really like how you both imply you could have made it had you put in the effort, keep dreaming. The players who make it in the NHL by the effort still have natural abilities that cannot be tought to everyone.
 
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LaP

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No, not as absurd because that's not what he wrote. Untalented players make the NHL because of effort. I definitely would have been one of those if I'd put in the time and made the NHL.

Untalented players make the NHL because they were at the right place at the right time or do **** the right people's ****. There's many hard worker players in Europe with the same level of skills as Jordie Benn or Brian Schlemko. Darren Dietz is killing the KHL. Pretty sure he can do as well as Schlemko. From what i can remember he was not afraid to work anyway not more than Schlemko is (doesn't mean much since Schlemko is not working very hard).

Once you are labelled as a NHL player you can surf on the wave for a long time without being particularly good. And being labelled as a NHL player is often for guys like the ones mentioned before more a matter of luck than anything else. Injuries to other players. Coach liking your personality. Your brother being the best player of the team. Etc...

Tom Pyatt's career would have probably been shorter without Guy Boucher. Nothing to do with how hard he worked.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Lol I really like how you both imply you could have made it had you put in the effort, keep dreaming. The players who make it in the NHL by the effort still have natural abilities that cannot be tought to everyone.

Natural abilities don't exist.

You just don't get where the starting point is in development, and what is needed at that very point.
 
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dcyhabs

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Natural abilities don't exist.

You just don't get where the starting point is in development, and what is needed at that very point.
Try playing other sports with pro atheletes, sports that you are good at that they haven’t tried. They will pick up the unfamiliar sport in no time and do it well.

People have different brain and muscle capabilities. Look at Guy Lafleur who would smoke and goof off but still fly, or Phil Kessel.

Some players extend their talent and conditioning better through hard work but most players have the same options and They work really hard and still aren’t good enough. Most work really hard and end up getting separated by what their bodies can do. Anyone in the nhl is one of the thousand or so best in the world out of millions who try.

To succeed at pro sports takes a lot, physical suze and abilities, talent, technique, training, mental acuity and toughness. Probably steroids at this pount. But not everyone can do it no matter how hard they try. Guys in the nhl were the best in their school, best on their local team, best on their regional team etc. But not necessarily the hardest working on all those teams.

McCarron works but he has physical assets and limitations. He’s big, he’s fast, but he’s not quick and he may not be able to process the game fast enough. He certainly works hard, no way to know if he could work harder.
 

Habsddicted

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Natural abilities don't exist.

You just don't get where the starting point is in development, and what is needed at that very point.

Sure buddy. There's a lot more then just effort to make it in the NHL and even you should know that. It's really not as simple as "If I had tried my hardest I would have made it."

If it is the case, do it now, pick up a stick and go rack up the points at your local rink and get noticed. I don't want to hear any excuses about how a guy in his 20's will be an overager, you should be able to overcome any adversity by just working your ass off.

Edit: What's your opinion with people with learning disabilities? Is that just laziness too?
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Try playing other sports with pro atheletes, sports that you are good at that they haven’t tried. They will pick up the unfamiliar sport in no time and do it well.

People have different brain and muscle capabilities. Look at Guy Lafleur who would smoke and goof off but still fly, or Phil Kessel.

Some players extend their talent and conditioning better through hard work but most players have the same options and They work really hard and still aren’t good enough. Most work really hard and end up getting separated by what their bodies can do. Anyone in the nhl is one of the thousand or so best in the world out of millions who try.

To succeed at pro sports takes a lot, physical suze and abilities, talent, technique, training, mental acuity and toughness. Probably steroids at this pount. But not everyone can do it no matter how hard they try. Guys in the nhl were the best in their school, best on their local team, best on their regional team etc. But not necessarily the hardest working on all those teams.

McCarron works but he has physical assets and limitations. He’s big, he’s fast, but he’s not quick and he may not be able to process the game fast enough. He certainly works hard, no way to know if he could work harder.

The point is not about everyone being able to do it (a conclusion you made all on your own).

The point is about how biology develops. Saying "Natural" abilities precludes genetic determinism and such silly notions are dead and belong in the annals of scientific history.

As I stated before, you just don't know how and why it goes a certain way. I'd suggest you go read about developmental and behavioral biology as I don't want to derail the thread further. I'll just quickly add that once you do, you'll quickly see that the entire brain's framework is adaptive to the kind of environment it gets and everything we are starts from there. Our varying capacity for self-awareness. Our varying capacity for individuation and differentiation. For pattern recognition. For self-correction. For attention. For curiosity. For our motor skills. For about everything we do. Passion. Confidence. Resilliency. Whichever. All of those things are triggered by cues. By trillions upon trillions of cues that interact with a very complicated genome which is highly adaptive and mostly deals with providing proteins for everywhich type of cellular energy is needed to deal with the environment. Those cues, we now know a lot more about. The kind of optimal environment that is needed. Genetic yeild does have its limits. But here's the thing. We also know that it only takes 1 to 2 generation to upgrade certain aspects with epigenetic effects. So a parent that trained a lot will pass down epigenetic reactions that give a greater predisposition for those traits, but it doesn't happen without the cues to catalyse it, even though the chances are higher.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Sure buddy. There's a lot more then just effort to make it in the NHL and even you should know that. It's really not as simple as "If I had tried my hardest I would have made it."

If it is the case, do it now, pick up a stick and go rack up the points at your local rink and get noticed. I don't want to hear any excuses about how a guy in his 20's will be an overager, you should be able to overcome any adversity by just working your ass off.

Edit: What's your opinion with people with learning disabilities? Is that just laziness too?

Where did I talk about laziness?

Maybe you're on to something as you seem to have been too lazy to actually read what I wrote.

For the rest, I'll refer you to the post I made about a minute ago.
 
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Habsddicted

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Where did I talk about laziness?

Maybe you're on to something as you seem to have been too lazy to actually read what I wrote.

For the rest, I'll refer you to the post I made about a minute ago.

You're replying to me replying to someone saying people who didn't get to the NHL were lazy, maybe you should get off your high horse.
 

DAChampion

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Where did I talk about laziness?

Maybe you're on to something as you seem to have been too lazy to actually read what I wrote.

For the rest, I'll refer you to the post I made about a minute ago.

There's a bit of an issue of general comprehension here.

When the general public says "genetics", they are incorrect. Gene-environment interactions are now overwhelmingly demonstrated to be far more important than people have realized. Moreover, we differ in not just our DNA, but also our gut microbiome, out mitochondrial DNA, etc.

However, the spirit of what people say is correct I think. Once you fold in the microbiome (affects personality, concentration, etc), mitochondrial DNA (I believe that this effects cardiovascular and muscular endurance), and prenatal environment, and even early childhood development if you like, a person's range of developmental's potential is drastically limited. It is not entirely due to DNA, that is a misconception, but I think that the spirit of the belief is true.

As an example, I believe that whether or not you're right handed or left handed has little or nothing to do with DNA, it's a random process that takes place in the mother's womb. However, once this happens, the developmental range is then restricted. Training somebody to hold the stick with the other hand then becomes a poor idea, moreso past a certain age.

To use a personal example, I have very poor hand-eye coordination. An optometrist placed a patch on my right eye when I was six. I still have lazy eye on the left eye. If he had done it when I was three, I'd be better at catching the ball, and I would have enjoyed sports more. That's more environmental than genetic, but the spirit of the comment "it's all genetics" has validity to it. It's not going to change at age 35.
 
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Habsddicted

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The point is not about everyone being able to do it (a conclusion you made all on your own).

The point is about how biology develops. Saying "Natural" abilities precludes genetic determinism and such silly notions are dead and belong in the annals of scientific history.

As I stated before, you just don't know how and why it goes a certain way. I'd suggest you go read about developmental and behavioral biology as I don't want to derail the thread further. I'll just quickly add that once you do, you'll quickly see that the entire brain's framework is adaptive to the kind of environment it gets and everything we are starts from there. Our varying capacity for self-awareness. Our varying capacity for individuation and differentiation. For pattern recognition. For self-correction. For attention. For curiosity. For our motor skills. For about everything we do. Passion. Confidence. Resilliency. Whichever. All of those things are triggered by cues. By trillions upon trillions of cues that interact with a very complicated genome which is highly adaptive and mostly deals with providing proteins for everywhich type of cellular energy is needed to deal with the environment. Those cues, we now know a lot more about. The kind of optimal environment that is needed. Genetic yeild does have its limits. But here's the thing. We also know that it only takes 1 to 2 generation to upgrade certain aspects with epigenetic effects. So a parent that trained a lot will pass down epigenetic reactions that give a greater predisposition for those traits, but it doesn't happen without the cues to catalyse it, even though the chances are higher.

Everything you said here is true to a certain extent, but as I said there is so much more to it. I'm not quite sure wether you're trying to argue with me or strengthen what I say as my point was that there was more to making the NHL then just putting in the "required" effort and training.
 
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Frank Drebin

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Are we discussing hockey or biology?

Paging @Ozymandias .

As for the observation that you're making, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Part of the reason that said players practised more as kids was that their talent level enabled them to enjoy it more.

They weren't just "working hard", they were having fun. And their natural talent level was a prequisite for that.

The fact that Subban was such a great player probably contributed to his motivation.

Exactly. My son is 6 and already you can see the kids with natural talent compared to the average ones - and it carries over to other sports too - the kids that are great at hockey are great at baseball, gymnastics, running, etc.

People like practicing things that they are good at - like you said their natural ability makes the dedication fun. PK's and prices dad's obviously saw that natural talent and fostered it from a young age, but you can't just take an average kid and put him on the ice for 4 hours a day and produce a superstar.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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To circle back to Michael McCarron,

Just because his skating improved with the help of a skating coach this past summer does not mean that he has never tried to improve his skating before.

It may be that he trained hard and did not get results. It may also be that due to his distinct body type, he needed an exceptionally competent skating coach to work with him.
 
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Habsddicted

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To circle back to Michael McCarron,

Just because his skating improved with the help of a skating coach this past summer does not mean that he has never tried to improve his skating before.

It may be that he trained hard and did not get results. It may also be that due to his distinct body type, he needed an exceptionally competent skating coach to work with him.

I think he trained a few other things too. I find that he protects the puck much better and turns it over a lot less also, but perhaps just a little more speed can be the determining factor in protecting the puck for him.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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And as for McCarron, I'll actually state my opinion now because others seem delusionally intent on doing that for me: The part of the brain that deals with execution, planning and social inhibitions is the prefrontal cortex. It is the last of the four major lobes to develop. The final stage of development, when most of the other areas are fully developed, is between around the end of the teen years and ends at around 25. It can go a bit further when we specialize in something technical. It is also the part of the brain that has the most tranposable elements in the genome and has the most wide and varied transcriptions factors, the more TEs and TFs, the more it adapts to the environment. In laymen's term, it means it's the part of the brain that is the least constrained by genes. It's the part of the brain that is the most adaptive to the environment. And it is highly logical that it is this way. It completely destroys any notion of genetic determinism when it comes to human behavior. All of this is fact. I can point to all the sources I've read and they are giants in their field. Now, knowing all of this, the notion of putting it on the player is kinda silly before the age of 25. The kid's brain isn't fully developed. It's looking to fill the void how? With cues from his surrounding. Some people might get me wrong or browsed too quickly to notice, but genes do have a max yeild over one generation. You won't make a Crosby out of a pee-wee, as much as you won't make a Crosby out of a McCarron. That's the usual strawman argument used. Taking extremes which belies the whole complicated and long process of biological and behavioral development. It's usually used by people who just sheepishly parrot the sensationalistic headlines they've heard. Someone like Crosby won the situational lottery (not to confuse with the mythical genetic lottery) where chromosone crossings went ideally, where hereditary epigenetic effects were mostly positive. In those, there might have been a few specific markers for certain traits. Pattern recognition is one. High individuation/differentiation and empathic capacity (among other things, to imitate and replicate actions). But then all of this would've worth noth if it weren't for the ideal social environment he grew up in. I've seen his parents. Not surprised they look like an overwhelmingly empathic and compassionate lot. This is key for certain features like passion, determination, discipline (real compassion demands that we work as much for ourselves as for others), drive and self-esteem. Anyway, long story short, mostly everything went right. For McCarron, a lot of things went right, but not as much as Crosby. His capacity for self-correction was clearly lower. As was his capacity for pattern recognition. We already knew this when he was 20. Now the point is not to make him a Crosby. The point is that there was this 5 year period where what he already had could've been worked upon and upgraded further if trainers and coaches actually informed themselves on a subject that is central to developing young players. The most important part when they are groomed at that age is finding out which psychological and mental attributes they need to work on. Pretty much any aspect that has to do with execution and planning can be upgraded at that age, but you need to know what you are doing. Saying these things can't be taught is a testament of how backwards the prevailing understanding of our biology is, and also how little attention people are paying to actual science.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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There's a bit of an issue of general comprehension here.

When the general public says "genetics", they are incorrect. Gene-environment interactions are now overwhelmingly demonstrated to be far more important than people have realized. Moreover, we differ in not just our DNA, but also our gut microbiome, out mitochondrial DNA, etc.

However, the spirit of what people say is correct I think. Once you fold in the microbiome (affects personality, concentration, etc), mitochondrial DNA (I believe that this effects cardiovascular and muscular endurance), and prenatal environment, and even early childhood development if you like, a person's range of developmental's potential is drastically limited. It is not entirely due to DNA, that is a misconception, but I think that the spirit of the belief is true.

As an example, I believe that whether or not you're right handed or left handed has little or nothing to do with DNA, it's a random process that takes place in the mother's womb. However, once this happens, the developmental range is then restricted. Training somebody to hold the stick with the other hand then becomes a poor idea, moreso past a certain age.

To use a personal example, I have very poor hand-eye coordination. An optometrist placed a patch on my right eye when I was six. I still have lazy eye on the left eye. If he had done it when I was three, I'd be better at catching the ball, and I would have enjoyed sports more. That's more environmental than genetic, but the spirit of the comment "it's all genetics" has validity to it. It's not going to change at age 35.

Look at my previous post about mccarron, i cover that.
 
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Habsddicted

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No i wont. Because you lazily transfered that conclusion to me.

If you want respect, act respectfully.

Okay, mr know it all, you sure seemed to know everything about me when you replied to me. Don't act condescending and I won't.
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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Okay, mr know it all, you sure seemed to know everything about me when you replied to me. Don't act condescending and I won't.

I won't act condescending if you refrain from using strawman arguments, deal?

It would also be really swell if you'd realize that my reaction was due in the first place to your action. Or you can go on and play the victim card.

I don't. I just fight back instead of whinning.
 
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