McDavid Right Now vs. Crosby at His Peak

[illpucks]

And speaking of McDavid defensively, here is his controller disconnected

 

[illpucks]

What the **** are you talking about????? He's a winger. His role, for forever, has been "cover the strong side point, cover the slot if you're on the weak side, get pucks out along the wall or make a good breakout pass". That's it. That's been a winger's defensive responsibility for a century

Well, someone like Hossa is a winger but given a higher defensive role than that.

 

[Beauner]

You think Crosby has no responsibility to chip in defensively in a 1 on 1 situation.

But you think Ovechkin has a responsibility to abandon his assignment in a 3 on 4 situation when both defensemen are behind Ovechkin on the play.

Am I summarizing your opinion acurately?

what's he supposed to do behind a player? Take a penalty? His defenseman got walked, he was in proper position in case is defenseman actually made a play or stood him up. He was right there for puck support.

Also on that play, Ovechkin already abandoned his assigment because he should've been in the slot to begin with. If the pucks on your weak side you don't stay on the point, you collapse into the slot.

 

[Beauner]

Well, someone like Hossa is a winger but given a higher defensive role than that.

No, no he wasn't He was just much better at all of those things than your average winger, along with great backchecking. His defensive IQ was off the charts.

Literally no winger is ever given a specific "defensive role", unless you count the system the coach implements which is standard for every position.

 

[daver]

Then when was Crosby's peak? Of course ES should be used. If McDavid had Malkin, Staal, Letang, Gonchar and Guerin on the PP, he would be hitting stupid numbers.

When he played his best of hockey of his career, and dominating at ES while doing so.

If Crosby had Drai on his line he would be hitting stupid numbers. That's how it works right?

And close this thread because McDavid is not leading in ES scoring this year, he is relying on the PP.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

That wasn’t his peak. And just pure ES point totals don’t tell the entire story, either.

of course they don't

 

[Midnight Judges]

Who cares about beating up a teenager? Crosby at the age of 20 bloodied Andrew Ference in his first career fight. You have absolutely no credibility here.

180 pound Ference wasn't remotely hurt. What a joke.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

When he played his best of hockey of his career, and dominating at ES while doing so.

If Crosby had Drai on his line he would be hitting stupid numbers. That's how it works right?

And close this thread because McDavid is not leading in ES scoring this year, he is relying on the PP.

if McDavid had Letang or Gonchar on defense, he'd be hitting even stupider numbers

 

[Midnight Judges]

what's he supposed to do behind a player? Take a penalty?

Ah so now Crosby isn't supposed to play defense because he might get a penalty.

 

[Beauner]

Ah so now Crosby isn't supposed to play defense because he might get a penalty.

If you're skating behind a player what options do you have? Hook, trip, hold... the guy's already driving the net so skating at him and pushing him forward is a good way to get your goalie killed.

I mean I'm sure you already know this but gotta keep up the charade somehow...

 

[daver]

if McDavid had Letang or Gonchar on defense, he'd be hitting even stupider numbers

We can do this all day because it is such a reasonable way to assess players.

Just let their numbers speak for themselves.

 

[illpucks]

=
And close this thread because McDavid is not leading in ES scoring this year, he is relying on the PP.

So can we agree that Laine is the best player in the league?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

We can do this all day because it is such a reasonable way to assess players.

Just let their numbers speak for themselves.

number show McDavid a superior ES player and had back-to-back Art Ross trophies to go along with a 2nd place finish

something Crosby has never done...let alone before he was even 23

 

[Canovin]

When he played his best of hockey of his career, and dominating at ES while doing so.

If Crosby had Drai on his line he would be hitting stupid numbers. That's how it works right?

And close this thread because McDavid is not leading in ES scoring this year, he is relying on the PP.

The numbers I used McDavid wasn't playing with Drai. McDavid has one less ES point this season than the leaders. Big deal lol

 

[bambamcam4ever]

number show McDavid a superior ES player and had back-to-back Art Ross trophies to go along with a 2nd place finish

something Crosby has never done...let alone before he was even 23

You may want to check those numbers again.

Crosby from 10-13: 4.18 5v5 points/60

McDavid's last 3 seasons: 2.87, 3.17, 2.82

Crosby completely blows away McDavid, especially when linemates are taken into account. Hell, Crosby was even more productive last year 5v5.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Lets just say Crosby's peak was 2009-2010 season. His highest even strength total was 72 points. Mcdavid was 84 points. That's quite a bit.

McDavid had more ES ice time and plenty of 3v3 points which Crosby did not have access to. Feel free to compare 5v5 production, it won't end well for McDavid.

 

[nowhereman]

There are a lot of people in the NHL who would take the current version of Crosby over McDavid, let alone peak Crosby. Burke was just on yesterday saying that he would still take Crosby for a playoff series.

Early 2010s Crosby was probably the best player I've seen since Lemieux. It's close, since McDavid is ridiculously good, but Crosby was just other-worldly, while being incredibly well-rounded and one of the best leaders/"winners" in league history (up there with Gretzky, Beliveau, Messier, etc.). Can't go wrong with either but I think you're just a little more "right" going with peak Sid.

That said, McDavid could still reach another level and change this narrative.

Let me know when Crosby does this:

"I've never felt like more of a man than that time I beat up that kid!"

Why has this devolved into a Sid vs. OV debate, lol? Looks like the the usual suspects are all out in full force...

 

[SouthWest]

You may want to check those numbers again.

Crosby from 10-13: 4.18 5v5 points/60

McDavid's last 3 seasons: 2.87, 3.17, 2.82

Crosby completely blows away McDavid, especially when linemates are taken into account. Hell, Crosby was even more productive last year 5v5.

This was also completely evident by the eye test.

 

[GreatGonzo]

People also forget that it hasn't been until the last 5 or so years that the discussion around Crosby was that he regressed in the playoffs. You look at this stats lines and it seems crazy but that was the narrative at the time.

When he scored the golden goal, I remember thinking, "no one is going to remember that everyone spent the last two weeks trashing him."

It's possible people's expectations were just too high, though. I thought McDavid played well in his only playoff appearance considering he was up against Vlasic (a Dman who played very well against Crosby in the finals the season prior) in round 1, and Kesler was able to throw the rule book out the window when defending him in round 2...but people talk about McDavid like he disappeared.

It’s definitely high expectations for sure. The irony is the amount of slack many cut Crosby, yet hold McDavid on a shorter leash and different standards. He won’t get the respect he deserves until he meets the “Crosby standard.” Which is basically everything he has achieved and then some, because apparently Crosby gets to hold that standard. He’s already accomplished so much in such little time, give him a better team to work with and that’s when the true test begins.

Crosby got bounced against a far superior Senators team yes, but individually, he was easily the best player on his team, and performed admirably, leading his team in goals and points. He was actually really good in that series, the Penguins were just outmatched by a far superior team that went to the finals. He follows that up with 27 points in 20 games the next playoff year and 31 points in 24 points the year after. McDavid was handily outscored by Draisaitl (by almost 2x), and even Mark Letestu. Admittedly, he played better than his 9 points in 13 games indicate, but I would give the playoff edge to Crosby.

And yes, Crosby played with Hossa for 20~RS games and ~20 playoff games... McDavid's been playing with Draisaitl consistently EV and PP for the last few seasons. The teammate argument doesn't really work against Crosby very well, seeing he played with guys like Kunitz and Dupuis mainly at EV during his peak.

My point is no one was talking about how much of a failure Crosby was and how inferior he is his first playoff run like they did McDavid, the only difference is the talent around them provided support for another playoff run....McDavid never got that kind of support and was a one man team. The talent around you dictates your playoff wins and losses more than individual talent, and having Malkin, Hossa, Gonchar, and Fleury is certainly a good amount of supporting cast.

It’s just silly to use that against McDavid while ignoring the obvious context for Crosby in the playoffs. It’s not like McDavid has had another shot to redeem himself, Crosby did....but many still find a way to blame McDavid for his teams faults, because they can’t handle him being better than Crosby.

Don’t forget McDavid had a 105 pt winger with him last year for 82 games and Sid played less than 20 in 08 with Hossa.

And what’s the correlation?

The oilers still didn’t make the playoffs while the Pens did quite easily with Crosby only playing 52 games, what does that say about their teams? You have two 100+ point players and their team was so bad they STILL didn’t make the playoffs, where as your best player misses 20 games and they make the playoffs on the back of Malkin.....

Don’t forget, Malkin>>Everyone else on the oilers.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Peak Crosby was playing with Dupuis and Kunitz, while McDavid is playing with Draisaitl.

Just giving Guentzal to a peak Crosby would give a big boost in points

Why does it matter? You talk like McDavid wouldn’t be producing at high rates with lesser talent, he already has.

You want to talk about linemates, yet ignore Malkin and Crosby sharing the same PP....doesn’t that help Crosby’s numbers?

When he played his best of hockey of his career, and dominating at ES while doing so.

If Crosby had Drai on his line he would be hitting stupid numbers. That's how it works right?

And close this thread because McDavid is not leading in ES scoring this year, he is relying on the PP.

If McDavid had Malkin on the second line, he would already have a cup...

That’s how this works, right?

This was also completely evident by the eye test.

games played....
Crosby: 180
McDavid: 242

why do people ignore this?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

You may want to check those numbers again.

Crosby from 10-13: 4.18 5v5 points/60

McDavid's last 3 seasons: 2.87, 3.17, 2.82

Crosby completely blows away McDavid, especially when linemates are taken into account. Hell, Crosby was even more productive last year 5v5.

seriously? points/60 is a massively flawed stat...especially considering that Crosby played the 312th most 5 on 5 TOI during that time frame (10-13)
small sample size is small

 

[Turin]

seriously? points/60 is a massively flawed stat...especially considering that Crosby played the 312th most 5 on 5 TOI during that time frame (10-13)
small sample size is small

Okay, then GF%? Because again, Dellow wrote an article just last season explaining how Crosby’s impact on offense from 2010-2013 was higher than anything anybody has approached in the Cap era, and that if Edmonton wants to make noise with their poor depth, they might need McDavid to reach that level.

 

[daver]

seriously? points/60 is a massively flawed stat...especially considering that Crosby played the 312th most 5 on 5 TOI during that time frame (10-13)
small sample size is small

Check out Crosby's ES PPG during his peak. He was blowing away the competition.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Okay, then GF%? Because again, Dellow wrote an article just last season explaining how Crosby’s impact on offense from 2010-2013 was higher than anything anybody has approached in the Cap era, and that if Edmonton wants to make noise with their poor depth, they might need McDavid to reach that level.

nope...9th in the league from 2010-13
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Check out Crosby's ES PPG during his peak. He was blowing away the competition.

what's his "peak"? is it 2010-13 when he only played 99 games?