McDavid Right Now vs. Crosby at His Peak

[TruePowerSlave]

Both are incredible, McDavid still needs to prove he is a playoff beast.

That being said, If I would have to choose one or the other for a must win game I would go with Crosby.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

So what have I said in this thread that prompted your response? Other than not agreeing that McDavid is better.

My shtick is proving statistical arguments in the face of subjective narrative. You may want to give it a try.

I proved with stats that McDavid has led the league in ES scoring for 3 straight years including twice at 5-on-5...something Crosby never did

then you bring up subjective things like leadership and winning lol

 

[Turin]

nope...9th in the league from 2010-13
Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Sorry, misremembered.

While I won’t get too deep into it, despite injuries and lockouts robbing hockey of a lot of Crosby’s brilliance during his best years, when he was on the ice he hit an offensive level that nobody else has touched in the NHL’s Somewhat Better Data Era. The five best four-year windows by way of GF/60 all belong to Sid and he peaked with a four year run between 2009-13 in which Pittsburgh scored 4.5 GF/60 with him on the ice. In his age 20/21 seasons, by the way, the Penguins put up 3.3 GF/60 with him on the ice.
McDavid’s been outrageously, outrageously good to this point in his career – the Oilers have scored about 3.5 GF/60 with him on the ice at 5-on-5 which is phenomenally good. Imagine if they got 30 percent more though. For example, if McDavid’s playing 22 hours of 5-on-5 ice time and he blows up like Crosby did in this window, you’re talking about another 7 or 8 points in the standings per year. The easiest way for Edmonton to improve is to get more out of what they already have.
It’s hard to say if this is really possible – maybe Crosby just found a level McDavid will never hit – but if it is possible, it’s a gain that the Oilers should desperately be chasing.

 

[KevinRedkey]

Crosby scored 6 goals and 17 points in a 7-game span between April 2nd and April 13th, 2005. He may have done better some other time, but I started by looking in his first season, and I found that.

Picking such a small sample size is useless. Give it at least until the end of the year. Otherwise it's just a hot streak.

 

[Turin]

The

Crosby scored 6 goals and 17 points in a 7-game span between April 2nd and April 13th, 2005. He may have done better some other time, but I started by looking in his first season, and I found that.

Picking such a small sample size is useless. Give it at least until the end of the year. Otherwise it's just a hot streak.

If I remember Crosby was on pace for like 150 points by Christmas 2007. I think Kucherov was the same last year.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

It's 99 games, not 8. But dynamite strawman. Big numbers over small samples happen, but these are 3 streaks without regression in between that add up to a fairly significant sample. So are we to believe that Crosby conveniently was hurt at just the right time or came back at the right time every time to benefit and avoid any regression? And that the time in between was always a benefit due to lack of wear and tear and had no ill effects of rust or being out of shape? Seems like a stretch

except this doesn't prove he would have been able to keep up his pace over a long grueling season, that's the point here

dominance for half a season or a hot 22-game stretch isn't unheard of...heck McDavid has 17 point in 7 games
does anybody think he's going to keep up his 2.43 PPG pace? of course not

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Sorry, misremembered.

While I won’t get too deep into it, despite injuries and lockouts robbing hockey of a lot of Crosby’s brilliance during his best years, when he was on the ice he hit an offensive level that nobody else has touched in the NHL’s Somewhat Better Data Era. The five best four-year windows by way of GF/60 all belong to Sid and he peaked with a four year run between 2009-13 in which Pittsburgh scored 4.5 GF/60 with him on the ice. In his age 20/21 seasons, by the way, the Penguins put up 3.3 GF/60 with him on the ice.
McDavid’s been outrageously, outrageously good to this point in his career – the Oilers have scored about 3.5 GF/60 with him on the ice at 5-on-5 which is phenomenally good. Imagine if they got 30 percent more though. For example, if McDavid’s playing 22 hours of 5-on-5 ice time and he blows up like Crosby did in this window, you’re talking about another 7 or 8 points in the standings per year. The easiest way for Edmonton to improve is to get more out of what they already have.
It’s hard to say if this is really possible – maybe Crosby just found a level McDavid will never hit – but if it is possible, it’s a gain that the Oilers should desperately be chasing.

still doesn't explain the small sample size

 

[Halla]

Peak Crosby already had a 62pts in 49 playoff games and a cup at the same age as mcdavid with 9 playoff points

 

[Maestro84]

McDavid right now is better than Crosby's peak, and below Ovechkin's.

McDavid is better than both tbh.

 

[Regal]

except this doesn't prove he would have been able to keep up his pace over a long grueling season, that's the point here

dominance for half a season or a hot 22-game stretch isn't unheard of...heck McDavid has 17 point in 7 games
does anybody think he's going to keep up his 2.43 PPG pace? of course not

Again, 7 games is a far cry from 99. This idea that the sample size is small just isn't true. Again, why is he magically having these stretches during the only games he played during the course of three years. If he was going to cool down significantly why would he keep it up every time he hit the ice? They probably do come down some over full seasons, but we're talking about one of the best players of all time at peak ages and the eye test matching the numbers. It's completely idiotic to write it off as sample size

 

[GreatGonzo]

Recovering from injuries is not "rest." I really doubt players production increases as they return from injury.

He maintained a 130 point pace over 160 consecutive games in a lower scoring period. Sorry if that bothers Mcfans.

He didn’t play 160 “consecutive” games. Do you know what consecutive means? He played those amount of games over 4 seasons, A LOT of time in between.

I swear the great lengths people will go to just to pump Crosby’s tires. Even going as far as defying all logic and reality.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Peak Crosby already had a 62pts in 49 playoff games and a cup at the same age as mcdavid with 9 playoff points

Because that’s all Crosby’s doing and has nothing to do with having a better team around him, right? Who won the Smythe that year? How did Crosby do in the finals?.....

 

[GreatGonzo]

His peak is when he was playing his best hockey. At his best, Crosby was on a level above McDavid's best.

I take it you aren't going to agree because it goes against your narrative of McDavid being better at ES, as compelling as that argument is to begin with.

So Crosby’s 22 games in 2012 and 41 games in 2011 are better than ANYTHING McDavid has done....he was so amazing in those small sample sizes, that there was nothing McDavid could have done with the extra 60 and 41 games that McDavid could have done to top the great and all powerful Crosby?....they should have just given Crosby all the Hart’s, Lindsay’s, and Scoring titles once he got injured, seeing how no one could have been better with all those remaining games played anyway. He’s so amazing he had all the awards locked up by the first month of the season!

Sure, Ok Daver

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's 99 games, not 8. But dynamite strawman. Big numbers over small samples happen, but these are 3 streaks without regression in between that add up to a fairly significant sample. So are we to believe that Crosby conveniently was hurt at just the right time or came back at the right time every time to benefit and avoid any regression? And that the time in between was always a benefit due to lack of wear and tear and had no ill effects of rust or being out of shape? Seems like a stretch

The fact that your adding them up is not just misleading but bias no matter what. Crosby wasn’t even the best player those years simply because he wasn’t playing. How can you be the best when your not playing? Not contributing? I understand what he WOULD HAVE accomplished if healthy, but he wasn’t. It was Perry’s year in 2011, Malkin had a monster season in 2012, and Crosby’s very small 22 games that season isn’t nearly enough to suggest where he would have ended up. Facts are, Malkin was the best player that year. His 2013 season, he won the Lindsay and rightfully so, but Ovechkin was still a very deserving winner of the Hart.

So why bulk them up? It’s spot picking at his finest. If you want to say Crosby was the best player in the league for those 99 games between 3 years.....I guess that’s fine, but what about all the games he didn’t play? Why do you sweep those under the rug?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Sorry, misremembered.

While I won’t get too deep into it, despite injuries and lockouts robbing hockey of a lot of Crosby’s brilliance during his best years, when he was on the ice he hit an offensive level that nobody else has touched in the NHL’s Somewhat Better Data Era. The five best four-year windows by way of GF/60 all belong to Sid and he peaked with a four year run between 2009-13 in which Pittsburgh scored 4.5 GF/60 with him on the ice. In his age 20/21 seasons, by the way, the Penguins put up 3.3 GF/60 with him on the ice.
McDavid’s been outrageously, outrageously good to this point in his career – the Oilers have scored about 3.5 GF/60 with him on the ice at 5-on-5 which is phenomenally good. Imagine if they got 30 percent more though. For example, if McDavid’s playing 22 hours of 5-on-5 ice time and he blows up like Crosby did in this window, you’re talking about another 7 or 8 points in the standings per year. The easiest way for Edmonton to improve is to get more out of what they already have.
It’s hard to say if this is really possible – maybe Crosby just found a level McDavid will never hit – but if it is possible, it’s a gain that the Oilers should desperately be chasing.

No, you are correct about his GF%. Oilers fans are unconcerned with getting the actual numbers.

 

[Turin]

still doesn't explain the small sample size

Yea, what is unlikely is that the best player of his generation in what is generally accepted as an athletes physical prime fluked his way to a dominant physical prime.

 

[WHISTLERNATE]

I voted McDavid. I think he is going to be the best player since Lemieux. Nothing against Crosby at all, he has been amazing throughout his career, I just think McDavid is a better player.,

 

[Turin]

McDavid is better than both tbh.

I voted McDavid. I think he is going to be the best player since Lemieux. Nothing against Crosby at all, he has been amazing throughout his career, I just think McDavid is a better player.,

Q: Why? In what way?

A: so fast, siq dekes

 

[filinski77]

McDavid is better than both tbh.

When McDavid leads the league in points and goals per game for 3 straight years, or heck even do it just once, then maybe he can be in the conversation with Ovi's peak.

 

[WHISTLERNATE]

Q: Why? In what way?

A: so fast, siq dekes

Crosby has been great, don't get me wrong. He has been about 100 pt player on average throughout his career, and won everything you can. I feel that the next 4-5 years McDavid could put up 115-120 pretty consistently. He takes over games more than anyone I've watched in the past 20 years. If I'm starting a team, I'd take Mcdavid. Just my opinion, to each their own. I don't think there is a wrong answer, and the fact this poll is so close would tend to validate that.

 

[Regal]

The fact that your adding them up is not just misleading but bias no matter what. Crosby wasn’t even the best player those years simply because he wasn’t playing. How can you be the best when your not playing? Not contributing? I understand what he WOULD HAVE accomplished if healthy, but he wasn’t. It was Perry’s year in 2011, Malkin had a monster season in 2012, and Crosby’s very small 22 games that season isn’t nearly enough to suggest where he would have ended up. Facts are, Malkin was the best player that year. His 2013 season, he won the Lindsay and rightfully so, but Ovechkin was still a very deserving winner of the Hart.

So why bulk them up? It’s spot picking at his finest. If you want to say Crosby was the best player in the league for those 99 games between 3 years.....I guess that’s fine, but what about all the games he didn’t play? Why do you sweep those under the rug?

Because we're talking about how good he was. Games played add value but don't make someone a better player. The argument was that his peak play per game was better. How we want to incorporate missed games is a separate argument, but detractors keep wanting to conflate the two.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Again, 7 games is a far cry from 99. This idea that the sample size is small just isn't true.

but it is, he literally only played in 47% of Pens games during that span..playing less than half you team's games is a small sample size lol

Again, why is he magically having these stretches during the only games he played during the course of three years. If he was going to cool down significantly why would he keep it up every time he hit the ice?

really? because he's fresher than every one else on the ice....when you've only played 41 games once season, than 22 games another...safe to say you never endured the grind of a long 82 game season plus playoffs
it's a hot streak....nothing more
had he done it a full season, that would be impressive

They probably do come down some over full seasons, but we're talking about one of the best players of all time at peak ages and the eye test matching the numbers. It's completely idiotic to write it off as sample size

we don't live in a world of hypotheticals...reality says the guy only once led the league is ES points once and never led the league in 5-on-5 points
even you can't argue that

 

[GreatGonzo]

Because we're talking about how good he was. Games played add value but don't make someone a better player. The argument was that his peak play per game was better. How we want to incorporate missed games is a separate argument, but detractors keep wanting to conflate the two.

That’s still 99 games over a 3 year span, which means there were a lot of games in between where he wasn’t playing at all. So there’s no consistency, it’s literally “Peaked for 22 games here.....peaked for 36 games here....peaked for 41 games here. Lumping then together as one doesn’t work no matter how you try to defend it.

We are talking about 3 separate “peaks” that are small sample sizes. McDavid actually has consistency and dominance, Crosby has “what if’s.” Unless your suggesting Crosby in those 22, 41, or 36 games was on a completely different level than McDavid ever was, which again doesn’t work and makes zero sense.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

No, you are correct about his GF%. Oilers fans are unconcerned with getting the actual numbers.

actual numbers being McDavid has led the league 3 straight years at ES including twice at 5-on-5..Crosby? zero times 5-on-5 and once at ES

but yes, Crosby joins Josh freaking Manson as winners of the GF% race

 

[Regal]

but it is, he literally only played in 47% of Pens games during that span..playing less than half you team's games is a small sample size lol


really? because he's fresher than every one else on the ice....when you've only played 41 games once season, than 22 games another...safe to say you never endured the grind of a long 82 game season plus playoffs
it's a hot streak....nothing more
had he done it a full season, that would be impressive

we don't live in a world of hypotheticals...reality says the guy only once led the league is ES points once and never led the league in 5-on-5 points
even you can't argue that

lol. Who gives a shit how many games out of the Pens he played. It's still 99 f***ing games.

Crosby is literally the only player who gets the argument that missed games help him. Meanwhile players miss training camp all the time and their bad seasons are excused because he never got up to speed.

No one is talking about hypotheticals. He actually played those games...