McDavid Right Now vs. Crosby at His Peak

[JasonRoseEh]

In Ovi's best seasons:
2007-2008 = 6% lead over #2 in points, and 25% lead over #2 in goals
2009-2010 = 10% lead over #2 in points/gp, and 10% lead over #2 in goals/gp

McDavid:
2016-2017 = 3% lead over #2 in points/gp (Crosby missed 7 games), 32% less goals than #1
2017-2018 = 6% lead over #2 in points, only 1% lead over #2 in points/gp (mackinnon missed a few games), 16% less goals than #1
2018-2019 = 4% less points/gp than #1, and 20% less goals than #1

In total, McDavid has never had a relative point advantage as peak Ovechkin did, let alone the goalscoring dominance added to it, Ovechkin was also going up against young and dominant Malkin and Crosby.

As far as total points go, it's essentially a wash as Ovi in 2009-2010 was on pace for 124 points (he missed 10 games), and was on pace to lead the league in points by 12. Whereas McDavid last year was on pace for 122 points, 6 less than the league leader. League scoring was also up last year compared to 2009-2010.

Can I frame this?

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

Why are we talking about team success?

Remind me how many playoff games Crosby won before another generational talent in Malkin joined the team.

To answer the thread question, Crosby is better than McDavid at most aspects of the game but McDavid's offensive peak is unprecedented since the time of Gretzky/Lemieux. When you add it all together I think you gotta take McDavid here.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

In the two longest samples of those seasons he started the season on time and played along with everyone else. He didn't have any advantage in terms of health due to the rigors of the season for the period he played.

he also didn't have the disadvantage of the long 82 game schedule that other players had

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Why are we talking about team success?

Remind me how many playoff games Crosby won before another generational talent in Malkin joined the team.

To answer the thread question, Crosby is better than McDavid at most aspects of the game but McDavid's offensive peak is unprecedented since the time of Gretzky/Lemieux. When you add it all together I think you gotta take McDavid here.

Im just going to assume that you’re responding to daver.

in this case to answer your question: it’s daver. He will twist any argument to downplay McDavid to prop Crosby.

 

[HugginThePost]

Crosby’s weakness is....weakness. He’s not remotely a physical player and he can be bullied. That’s why Crosby fans are frequently complaining about him being abused. Nobody ever complained about Gordie Howe or Alex Ovechkin being abused, because they were the big strong players doing the abusing.

Crosby also has a durability weakness, as evidenced by his pattern of injuries.

Crosby also has a pretty weak mental game. Teams get under his skin pretty easily. An oft stated tactic used against him to the detriment of his team.

Crosby also sucked at defense for most of his career.

Satire? I'll assume so......

No one can be this dense.

 

[Strait2thecup]

I think mcjesus is better than sid. Another art ross coming this season

 

[Hustlr]

I’ll take the proven winner.

 

[DitchMarner]

I’ll take the proven winner.

I mean, McDavid's won the same number of Art Ross trophies and one fewer Hart and Lindsay in a decade less in the League.

He doesn't have as many Cups, but Crosby doesn't have as many as Kunitz.

 

[Hustlr]

I mean, McDavid's won the same number of Art Ross trophies and one fewer Hart and Lindsay in a decade less in the League.

He doesn't have as many Cups, but Crosby doesn't have as many as Kunitz.

Crosby at his peak was winning cups, that’s the facts. I’ll take the cup winner.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby at his peak was winning cups, that’s the facts. I’ll take the cup winner.

Kunitz has more cups than Crosby so I take it you would pick him over Crosby, right?

Crosby didn’t win any cups from 2010-2014, which is peak Crosby. So no he wasn’t winning cups at his peak, in fact he won more cups on way better and more talented teams with better players around him than he did as the best player in the league. Who would have thought?......

So all your saying is you will take the elite player with the better and more talented team around him rather than the elite player who has been carrying a dumpster fire for the last few years.

Cups are team awards. Not individual. Choosing Crosby because of cups means you expect him to come with the total package of Malkin, Kessel, Letang, and Murray.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I mean, McDavid's won the same number of Art Ross trophies and one fewer Hart and Lindsay in a decade less in the League.

He doesn't have as many Cups, but Crosby doesn't have as many as Kunitz.

I believe Crosby has won a championship for every team he's played on since he was 9 years old.

McDavid never wins anything aside from being on a few stacked Team Canadas

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you're comparing McDavid now to Crosby 2011-2013, I honestly don't see an argument for McDavid. Crosby analytically was better across the board over those 3 years than McDavid, whether you want to talk offense or defense.

Here's what naturalstattrick has to say for their 5v5 stats:

Crosby: 16.15% GF%Rel, 1.1 xGF/60 Rel, 0.36 xGA/Rel, +6.36% xGF% Rel, 4.18 points/60
McDavid: 13.29% GF%Rel, 0.81 xGF/60 Rel, 0.47 xGA/Rel, +3.54% xGF% Rel, 3.02 points/60

The only argument for McDavid is that he has been healthier than peak Crosby, but peak Crosby was clearly a better player analytically.

 

[DitchMarner]

I believe Crosby has won a championship for every team he's played on since he was 9 years old.

McDavid never wins anything aside from being on a few stacked Team Canadas

When comparing individual players, I put more emphasis on individual victories than team awards because players don't win team awards on their own.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If you're comparing McDavid now to Crosby 2011-2013, I honestly don't see an argument for McDavid. Crosby analytically was better across the board over those 3 years than McDavid, whether you want to talk offense or defense.

Here's what naturalstattrick has to say for their 5v5 stats:

Crosby: 16.15% GF%Rel, 1.1 xGF/60 Rel, 0.36 xGA/Rel, +6.36% xGF% Rel, 4.18 points/60
McDavid: 13.29% GF%Rel, 0.81 xGF/60 Rel, 0.47 xGA/Rel, +3.54% xGF% Rel, 3.02 points/60

The only argument for McDavid is that he has been healthier than peak Crosby, but peak Crosby was clearly a better player analytically.

How was he better? Ok can we stop trying to fuse this Crosby to back then? Crosby at his peak wasn’t that great defensively, and definitely wasn’t better defensively in any way. If anything it’s a wash.

So your saying Crosby’s 2012 season is better than anything McDavid did? Those 22 games is better than anything? Weird....

Weird how much grace period Crosby gets, he can literally play half a season and even 22 games and still be considered the best no matter what.

Also, how many times did Crosby lead the league in ES points? How many scoring titles did he win from 2011-13? How many Hart’s? What did he achieve in 2012 other than an honorary pass to be the best player in the world no matter what....

 

[6ix]

Overall, Crosby. Completely dominant on offence and defence as well as a dominant playoff performer.

Speed and being more dynamic in transition does not mean you had a better peak as a player overall.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Overall, Crosby. Completely dominant on offence and defence as well as a dominant playoff performer.

Speed and being more dynamic in transition does not mean you had a better peak as a player overall.

He wasn’t dominant defensively at his peak.....why the hell are people trying to convince themselves of this He also didn’t have any playoff success at his peak.

 

[6ix]

He wasn’t dominant defensively at his peak.....why the hell are people trying to convince themselves of this He also didn’t have any playoff success at his peak.

That’s your opinion which happens to be incorrect. He was a dominant playoff performer going over ppg, I never said playoff success in general during those 2 years.

and he certainly was excellent defensively, Crosby is one of the highest hockey IQ players to play the game.

 

[GreatGonzo]

That’s your opinion which happens to be incorrect. He was a dominant playoff performer going over ppg, I never said playoff success in general during those 2 years.

and he certainly was excellent defensively, Crosby is one of the highest hockey IQ players to play the game.

Well no he wasn’t excellent defensively, and besides I don’t see how you can be with such little games played. It’s more you trying to saying your opinion is superior to the truth, and well if that works for you in little world then that’s fine.


this is PEAK Crosby, you can’t read the title? And peak Crosby had no playoffs success.

 

[6ix]

Well no he wasn’t excellent defensively, and besides I don’t see how you can be with such little games played. It’s more you trying to saying your opinion is superior to the truth, and well if that works for you in little world then that’s fine.


this is PEAK Crosby, you can’t read the title? And peak Crosby had no playoffs success.

You’re looking to be a salty flyers fan that got dominated by Crosby. Can you not get it through your head that not winning a cup in his peak seasons does not mean he wasn’t dominant in the playoffs? He was still over ppg even though they didn’t win a cup, because those pens teams were flawed.

Also lead Canada to an Olympic medal scoring the game winner. You claiming he wasn’t good defensively is false.

 

[GreatGonzo]

You’re looking to be a salty flyers fan that got dominated by Crosby. Can you not get it through your head that not winning a cup in his peak seasons does not mean he wasn’t dominant in the playoffs? He was still over ppg even though they didn’t win a cup, because those pens teams were flawed.

Also lead Canada to an Olympic medal scoring the game winner. You claiming he wasn’t good defensively is false.

I mean that’s just more assumptions that your making. I’m not salty or a flyers fan....but if that’s what you have to convince yourself to make you believe your more correct. That’s fine. See how long that lasts.

He was a great playoff performer for sure but your over glorifying his “dominance.” 51 points in 46 games with a -4 rating with zero cups isn’t exactly making that any more of a fact.

Insulting me doesn’t make your opinion more of a fact, much like making assumptions doesn’t make your opinion look any stronger as a hockey fan.

Don’t see how leading your team to a Gold medal has anything to do with defense but ok, just more of you destroying your own argument

 

[SillyRabbit]

Why are we talking about team success?

Remind me how many playoff games Crosby won before another generational talent in Malkin joined the team.

To answer the thread question, Crosby is better than McDavid at most aspects of the game but McDavid's offensive peak is unprecedented since the time of Gretzky/Lemieux. When you add it all together I think you gotta take McDavid here.

You mean... one year after Crosby began his career?

Your argument is that the 1st overall pick, couldn't lead his bottom feeding team to the playoffs in his rookie season at the age of 18... which means that he's worse than McDavid (who couldn't do this either)?

 

[daver]

Why are we talking about team success?

Remind me how many playoff games Crosby won before another generational talent in Malkin joined the team.

To answer the thread question, Crosby is better than McDavid at most aspects of the game but McDavid's offensive peak is unprecedented since the time of Gretzky/Lemieux. When you add it all together I think you gotta take McDavid here.

Interested to hear how this claim can be backed up. He doesn't even has the best offensive season since he joined the league. Nor the 2nd best for that matter.

Jagr and OV have him beat for consecutive elite seasons, Crosby has him beat in level of play over multiple seasons.

Malkin and Kane have better peak seasons.

The only safe claim is to say he neck and neck with Crosby in terms of elite regular season offensive play in their first four years.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How was he better? Ok can we stop trying to fuse this Crosby to back then? Crosby at his peak wasn’t that great defensively, and definitely wasn’t better defensively in any way. If anything it’s a wash.

So your saying Crosby’s 2012 season is better than anything McDavid did? Those 22 games is better than anything? Weird....

Weird how much grace period Crosby gets, he can literally play half a season and even 22 games and still be considered the best no matter what.

Also, how many times did Crosby lead the league in ES points? How many scoring titles did he win from 2011-13? How many Hart’s? What did he achieve in 2012 other than an honorary pass to be the best player in the world no matter what....

Were you drunk when posting this or do you have such a hard on for ****ing on Crosby that you make such nonsensical posts?

I'm not even going to bother responding to this, this is a crap post filled with strawman after strawman arguments. If you look at Crosby from 2010 to 2013 and compare him to McDavid from 2017 to today, there isn't an analytical argument for McDavid. Crosby was better both offensively (higher ES points/60 and higher xGF/60 rel) and defensively (slightly better xGA/60 rel). The nonsense you posted doesn't refute any of that. Maybe actually reply to the argument I make instead of just screaming "REEEEEE GRACE PERIOD REEE CROSBY'S THE BEST BECAUSE OF 22 GAMES REEEEE"

 

[daver]

When comparing individual players, I put more emphasis on individual victories than team awards because players don't win team awards on their own.

How about emphasis on individual performances that lead teams to said awards?

 

[tacogeoff]

Hmmmm..... this might be true if it wasn't true.

The Oilers in McDavid's first two years were better than the Pens in Crosby's 1st two years. Funny how Crosby was able to win the Ross in his 2nd year on a weaker team.
.

but did he win 2 Ross's back to back?

it is crazy that he is four seasons in and if he picks up another individual award this season he will be half way to meeting Sids individual trophy count.


imo he is better than peak Crosby but I dont think he will be able to keep this pace as small sample sizes and projections are never static/linear. If he does then it is going to be a magical season for him.

I am very interested to see his peak.