Player Discussion Max Pacioretty discussion part VII: Maximus Decimus Tradius Valus

[Habs Halifax]

he hasn't.

No idea. I would love to know the best offer we have gotten at this point.

 

[417]

I agree with a majority of your post. He’s not going to sit out. It makes no sense and is completely outside of his apparent personality.

I will say that I disagree about not having leverage though. I think he has significant leverage. He may not be able to control where he goes 100%, but the LA deal is evidence enough that he does have significant leverage.

Pacioretty can essentially eliminate all teams that don’t want him solely as a rental by refusing a contract, or by asking for more than that team is willing to pay.

Considering his age and possible contract demands, that could be a significant monkey wrench.

But its also risky for Pacioretty to go into this year as a pending UFA...

- The quality of the team, which won't be very good and i'm sure he sees that, will affect his numbers and the amount he's going to eventually sign as a UFA.
- An injury, even a a 4 to 6 week type of thing can seriously derail his season and again affect his numbers

There's risk involved for both parties, which is why I think at some point between now and the beginning of camp, he will be moved.

 

[Laurentide]

I too agree that Bergevin should make the move sooner rather than later.

I think waiting would be a very bad decision. The UFA class for 2019 is looking extremely strong right now. For sure, it will lessen, but there will be potentially a decent amount of high end UFAs avaialable at this seasons trade deadline. I have a sense there will be a big supply, and perhaps not as many buyers.

But yes, he doesn’t necessarily have leverage on where he plays his final year. But he kinda sorta does. Think of it this way, he’s already leveraged his way into not playing in LA.

He just won’t have control on the teams that are only willing to pay rental price.

Let's keep in mind that the Habs haven't got over $7 million worth of unused cap space because they're rebuilding. They have over $7 million worth of unused cap space because UFA's wouldn't take Bergevin's calls. So hearing about how great the 2019 UFA class is going to be doesn't have any effect on me. We aren't getting any of those free agents. We won't even be able to compete for them. Nobody wants to take our money if it means having to play for this team. Nobody who's any good, at least.

 

[EdAVSfan]

But its also risky for Pacioretty to go into this year as a pending UFA...

- The quality of the team, which won't be very good and i'm sure he sees that, will affect his numbers and the amount he's going to eventually sign as a UFA.
- An injury, even a a 4 to 6 week type of thing can seriously derail his season and again affect his numbers

There's risk involved for both parties, which is why I think at some point between now and the beginning of camp, he will be moved.

For sure there’s risk for both parties.

But I doubt Pacioretty is going to forego his ability to choose where he wants to play simply for risk of injury.

Many players go to UFA. Many players don’t sign contract extensions when they still have an RFA year on their contracts.

But Pacioretty is a UFA in 1 year. He can choose where he wants to play among his offers. So if he’s going to agree to an extension prior to a trade, he’s going o pick a place where he wants to go.

Yes there is risk to his new deal. But you also have to understand that Pacioretty is essentially communicating with only a handful of teams, maybe only just 1. So he has no idea what his market is. Maybe there is a team that would pay him 8x7 next offseason. But if that team doesn’t want to pay Bergevin’s ask, Pacioretty would never get a chance to communicate with that team to begin with.

So there’s risk that he’s leaving money on the table by pre-arranging his contract prior to a trade.

 

[EdAVSfan]

Let's keep in mind that the Habs haven't got over $7 million worth of unused cap space because they're rebuilding. They have over $7 million worth of unused cap space because UFA's wouldn't take Bergevin's calls. So hearing about how great the 2019 UFA class is going to be doesn't have any effect on me. We aren't getting any of those free agents. We won't even be able to compete for them. Nobody wants to take our money if it means having to play for this team. Nobody who's any good, at least.

I think you’ve misunderstood what I was trying to say.

With there being many UFAs in 2019, that means there will potentially be many rental options at this deadline, flooding the market. So if bergevin waits, and there’s 4, or 5 or 6 or more high quality UFAs available for rental, then it reduces the return because supply is higher.

Nothing to do with bergevin spending on those UFAs. Only from a trade return from Pacioretty perspective.

 

[Hacketts]

Are you quoting Eklund again?

Again?

 

[Bryson]

I disagree here, he has to go before there is a chance that he might get a season ending injury, if that were to happen we either trade him for pennies on the dollar or lose him and get nothing at all on July 1st.

I disagree, getting a mid level prospect and a 2nd for a perennial 30 goal scorer is already selling for pennies on the dollar. Hard to imagine that his value will drop much further than that. Habs are playing the long game here and should hold out for a 1st round pick as unlikely as it is to happen even if that means waiting for the trade deadline. But then again as a gambling man my risk tolerance is higher than most.

Habs are already stacked with midling prospects, they need to push to increase the odds of acquiring high end talent imo.

 

[CHarlie]

Again?

meant eklund again not you

 

[417]

For sure there’s risk for both parties.

But I doubt Pacioretty is going to forego his ability to choose where he wants to play simply for risk of injury.

Many players go to UFA. Many players don’t sign contract extensions when they still have an RFA year on their contracts.

But Pacioretty is a UFA in 1 year. He can choose where he wants to play among his offers. So if he’s going to agree to an extension prior to a trade, he’s going o pick a place where he wants to go.

Yes there is risk to his new deal. But you also have to understand that Pacioretty is essentially communicating with only a handful of teams, maybe only just 1. So he has no idea what his market is. Maybe there is a team that would pay him 8x7 next offseason. But if that team doesn’t want to pay Bergevin’s ask, Pacioretty would never get a chance to communicate with that team to begin with.

So there’s risk that he’s leaving money on the table by pre-arranging his contract prior to a trade.

Good post...and agreed.

Seems like a game of chicken between the Montreal Canadiens (Bergevin) & Max Pacioretty (and Allan Walsh).

But I continue to think this will be resolved at some point before the opening of training camp.

 

[417]

I disagree, getting a mid level prospect and a 2nd for a perennial 30 goal scorer is already selling for pennies on the dollar. Hard to imagine that his value will drop much further than that. Habs are playing the long game here and should hold out for a 1st round pick as unlikely as it is to happen even if that means waiting for the trade deadline. But then again as a gambling man my risk tolerance is higher than most.

Habs are already stacked with midling prospects, they need to push to increase the odds of acquiring high end talent imo.

I don't think a 1st round pick is a must...

Even a recently drafted 1st round pick with 1st line potential could suffice depending on who that is.

 

[yianik]

I was actually hoping the Isles might circle back on their interest for Patches, but Eklund reported they are looking into Panarin. While I put close to 0 stock in what Eklund reports , that kind of a trade would make absolute sense. Isles get a top flight winger who apparently wants big city living and it does not get bigger than New York. New York has tons of assets it could use.

 

[The Great Weal]

I don't think a 1st round pick is a must...

Even a recently drafted 1st round pick with 1st line potential could suffice depending on who that is.

If it were up to me I would really want a 1st for this years draft. Best time is before the season starts as well because we can have an Islanders scenario. If the 1st is conditional and becomes next years 1st, that's also good as well imo.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Let's keep in mind that the Habs haven't got over $7 million worth of unused cap space because they're rebuilding. They have over $7 million worth of unused cap space because UFA's wouldn't take Bergevin's calls. So hearing about how great the 2019 UFA class is going to be doesn't have any effect on me. We aren't getting any of those free agents. We won't even be able to compete for them. Nobody wants to take our money if it means having to play for this team. Nobody who's any good, at least.

Agreed. That's why we need to focus on youth and re-surface as a young team on the rise in a few years and hopefully before Price and Weber are past the age of 35. UFA's will then think about signing. Impact 2019 UFA's? Forget about it. I totally agree.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think a 1st round pick is a must...

Even a recently drafted 1st round pick with 1st line potential could suffice depending on who that is.

The only recently drafted 1st round pick we will be getting would be a player who has not developed well. So many people wanted us to trade our 2017 1st and more for Duchene but would we trade Poehling for a rental now? No way! This is why I think the focus should be a 2019 1st. There is not attachment to that pick yet. Once they show promise after they are drafted at age 19 or 20, they are almost untouchable if you are trying to use a pending UFA to acquire them.

We don't need more grade B prospects. We need a future 1st so we can take a shot at a prospect who can develop into a grade A prospect. That's where I stand and I think the biggest reason why Patch is still with the Habs is the 2019 1st is a must have. I support this strategy 100%. More grade B type prospects are not what we need. The bigger problem is I think Bergevin set the price too high where he was asking for a 1st and a grade A prospect. He is looking for a slam dunk type return where it's possible if the circumstance was right but not likely.

My asking price was a 2019 1st, a 2020 2nd and a conditional 2nd if he resigns. That is my base return and it could change depending on negotiation and what is offered but the 1st is a must have. I think we get the 1st at the 2019 trade deadline regardless.

 

[OldCraig71]

I disagree, getting a mid level prospect and a 2nd for a perennial 30 goal scorer is already selling for pennies on the dollar. Hard to imagine that his value will drop much further than that. Habs are playing the long game here and should hold out for a 1st round pick as unlikely as it is to happen even if that means waiting for the trade deadline. But then again as a gambling man my risk tolerance is higher than most.

Habs are already stacked with midling prospects, they need to push to increase the odds of acquiring high end talent imo.

My fear is injury and then what? He is headed towards free agency and teams will probably pay less for him especially since they are potentially trading with one of the lowest ranked gm's in the league.

 

[417]

The only recently drafted 1st round pick we will be getting would be a player who has not developed well. So many people wanted us to trade our 2017 1st and more for Duchene but would we trade Poehling for a rental now? No way! This is why I think the focus should be a 2019 1st. There is not attachment to that pick yet. Once they show promise after they are drafted at age 19 or 20, they are almost untouchable if you are trying to use a pending UFA to acquire them.

I don't agree with that...

Shane Bowers, #28 overall in 2017, went in the Duchene deal
Mikhail Sergachev, #9 overall in 2016, went in the Drouin deal
Tage Thompson, #26 overall in 2016, went in the O'Reilly deal
Noah Hanifin, #5 overall in 2015, went in the Hamilton deal
Lawson Crouse, #11 overall in 2015, went to the Coyotes
Kasperi Kapanen, #22 overall in 2014, went in the Kessel deal
Jared McCann, #24 overall in 2014, went in the Gudbransson deal
Nikolay Goldobin, #27 overall in 2014, went in the Jansen deal

I'm not suggesting it's likely to happen, I'm just saying it's an option to consider.

We don't need more grade B prospects. We need a future 1st so we can take a shot at a prospect who can develop into a grade A prospect. That's where I stand and I think the biggest reason why Patch is still with the Habs is the 2019 1st is a must have. I support this strategy 100%. More grade B type prospects are not what we need. The bigger problem is I think Bergevin set the price too high where he was asking for a 1st and a grade A prospect. He is looking for a slam dunk type return where it's possible if the circumstance was right but not likely.

this team needs assets, whether they are A-level prospects or B-level prospects, that doesn't really matter to me. Of course, ideally for Pacioretty you want to maximize the return, so I don't disagree with your premise.

It's just I would hope that a 2019 1st round pick isn't an absolutely must for Bergevin, there are different ways to add young talent to this team.

My asking price was a 2019 1st, a 2020 2nd and a conditional 2nd if he resigns. That is my base return and it could change depending on negotiation and what is offered but the 1st is a must have. I think we get the 1st at the 2019 trade deadline regardless.

That's certainly a reasonable ask...but again, I think it's important for Bergevin to be greedy (for a lack of better term) when shopping Pacioretty, but he should be open to different types of return. Especially because Pacioretty is a pending UFA...

He shouldn't corner himself into a specific type of deal.

 

[Bryson]

My fear is injury and then what? He is headed towards free agency and teams will probably pay less for him especially since they are potentially trading with one of the lowest ranked gm's in the league.

Yes well this idiot GM couldn't sell a bottle of water to a dying man in the desert. Our only hope is that one of the other teams has an injury of their own or get desperate to make the playoffs. Ask yourself would you rather a 2nd now or a chance at a 1st later especially given that next season's draft is considered to be deep.

 

[OldCraig71]

Yes well this idiot GM couldn't sell a bottle of water to a dying man in the desert. Our only hope is that one of the other teams has an injury of their own or get desperate to make the playoffs. Ask yourself would you rather a 2nd now or a chance at a 1st later especially given that next season's draft is considered to be deep.

I definitely would rather that we get a first rounder for him and for a consistent 30 goal scorer it seems like a no brainer that we would get at least that but what is Bergevin asking for? Is he still looking for a roster player plus a prospect and picks? He should have been traded at last years deadline in my opinion, a sweet contract that his new team would have gotten two potential playoff runs out of before deciding if he was in their future plans.

It was rumoured that Bergevin wanted Trocheck and that would of only worked if Bergevin was trading with a clone of himself. He simply does not seem capable of pulling this off in our favour.

 

[Runner77]

I believe Bowman for one will be calling MB around the time training camps open to ask about Patches. Hopefully there will be at least one other interested team at that time. If there isnt I could see the deal being Beaudin and a Hawks 2nd for Patches.

Pacioretty is usually durable. He'll be an antidote for some team that suffers a bad break and loses a top line player as it happens every season.

 

[Runner77]

Nobody is willing to over pay for Max. His value has never been lower.

Bargain Bin is looking for some one that will over pay.

I expect Max in the line up in October.

I'd be happy with fair market value. Overpayment would require Pacioretty signing an extension with the acquiring team, or the Habs taking on a toxic asset.

 

[Hacketts]

Yes well this idiot GM couldn't sell a bottle of water to a dying man in the desert.

Maybe because he doesn't have any money!

If he's in the desert right, you would have to imagine that are multitude of factors that got him to this point. I would imagine financial reasons being one of them, possibly lack of love for himself/life? Also he could of burned his money and his other material items because it does get quite cold at night in the desert. I will admit tho, if it was an accident either automobile or plane there is a chance that he may have a bit of money if thus accident was quite recent... really depends on timing tho. So anyways I can't blame Bergevin if there wasn't a proper deal for that bottle of water, you need to get some return on your product.

 

[jaffy27]

Fitting, because he is playing for the worst GM in Montreal Canadiens history.

Relax pal.

I will applaud any player who impresses me. Refusing to play for Molson and MB to force a trade would be impressive.

My favorite Habs these days btw...... Eler, Subban, Markov, Smith Pelly, Sergechev, Patteryn, Andrighetto, Emelin, Kassian, ....and Gallant.

Dude, you need to get out of Hamilton

 

[yianik]

Pacioretty is usually durable. He'll be an antidote for some team that suffers a bad break and loses a top line player as it happens every season.

Last year was the first time I could really see teams that were not contenders looking to still go for a big trade to just get into post season. Up and coming teams, "window closing " teams, have to get into the play offs because enough is enough teams etc. You would think there would be a good number of teams ready to pay up, but apparently, no.

 

[jaffy27]

No idea. I would love to know the best offer we have gotten at this point.

It was good enough......unfortunately vetoed by the Pacioretty camp

 

[Habs Halifax]

It was good enough......unfortunately vetoed by the Pacioretty camp

Agreed. I think we all have to agree the return was good enough and the Kings were willing to pay the asking price from Bergevin. But it fell through cause of the future contract, not because the Kings felt Patch was over the hill. The concern is with what Patch wants for a future contract, not because he is age 30 next year. Any team trying to acquire a pending UFA or expiring contract entertains the idea of a contract extension. The minute they realize Patch wants to cash in, the interest is reduced.

Look at Duchene. Lots of Habs fans were willing to pay the 2017 1st, Sergachev, + but also thought he would re-sign as well.