Player Discussion Max Domi - Maximus Dominatus Edition

[The Great Weal]

What I don't understand (and this goes for you @DramaticGloveSave ) is how Domi and Danault can escape blame for our dismal powerplay. Danault did get some minutes, and he sucked dick, thus justifying why you can't put him there in the first place. Whereas Domi was our top PP C. Perhaps instead of being a victim of the dismal PP, he was causally related to our dismal PP?

71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring. It's not as convincing when it puts you 49th (27th C).

Drouin was our most used forward on the PP. When I look at the issues with the PP, the first thing that comes to mind isnt that Domi needs to be better. Let's say Domi is responsible for having the worst PP in the league, is it his fault too that Lehkonen, Shaw and Drouin werent top line forwards under his wing? With a competent supporting cast, Domi hits PPG this year.

Actually, 71 points 1st line centers can win the cup. Beckstrom literally did that last year. He was their most used center.

 

[The Great Weal]

If you really think that Domi is in the same conversation as those guys.. I just, I can't have a conversation about it, sorry. He had a good year, but I think he will be just as effective, if not more so, back on the wing..

And obviously we aren't getting that level of talent at 15 barring some miracle (like people trading up for Tinordi over Kuznetsov.. or Lernout over Point), but that's not what I'm expecting this year. That's just what I'm saying we need to have to compete.

I'm not comparing Domi to those guys, I'm strictly talking about production. Toews, Kopitar, and Backstrom didnt put up earth shattering numbers when they were the top centers for their team in the cup runs. We give this management shit about playing Galchrnyuk at wing when he was more productive at center, why the heck would we want to do that with Domi now?

I think the team has MUCH bigger holes than center position. I'm taking our center core over Nashvilles every single day of the week. However, the rest of their team completely destroys us. I mean we have Mete-Kulak-Benn as our LHD at the moment. If Domi repeats this performance for the rest of his career, we are pretty much set for the center position. That's the question though, will he repeat?

 

[NotProkofievian]

Drouin was our most used forward on the PP. When I look at the issues with the PP, the first thing that comes to mind isnt that Domi needs to be better. Let's say Domi is responsible for having the worst PP in the league, is it his fault too that Lehkonen, Shaw and Drouin werent top line forwards under his wing? With a competent supporting cast, Domi hits PPG this year.

And many people would agree that Drouin is a big reason why our PP sucked. I just don't understand why Domi gets a pass on this point. Why doesn't anyone say that Drouin can do so much better because our PP sucked this year?

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Actually, 71 points 1st line centers can win the cup. Beckstrom literally did that last year. He was their most used center.

And Kuznetsov and Ovechkin fits into this how? Like, why even make that argument?

 

[The Great Weal]

And many people would agree that Drouin is a big reason why our PP sucked. I just don't understand why Domi gets a pass on this point. Why doesn't anyone say that Drouin can do so much better because our PP sucked this year?

Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Because Domi is a much better player than Drouin. Because Drouin literally needed Domi to carry his ass to score 50 points. Like I said, I'll play game and blame the PP 100% on Domi. Is it ALSO his fault that Lehkonen, Drouin, and Shaw weren't top line forwards outside the PP?

And Kuznetsov and Ovechkin fits into this how? Like, why even make that argument?

"71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring"-NotProkofievian

Take a look at last year with the cup champs. Backstrom had 71 points while being the most used center...

 

[Michelangelo]

Drouin was our most used forward on the PP. When I look at the issues with the PP, the first thing that comes to mind isnt that Domi needs to be better. Let's say Domi is responsible for having the worst PP in the league, is it his fault too that Lehkonen, Shaw and Drouin werent top line forwards under his wing? With a competent supporting cast, Domi hits PPG this year.

Actually, 71 points 1st line centers can win the cup. Beckstrom literally did that last year. He was their most used center.

Yea, 71 pt 1st line centers can win the cup... if you have an 83 pt 2nd line center like Kuz

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I actually don't know why we split up EV and PP points when talking about NHL players. I've seen an argument for draft prospects: junior EV points are more correlated with NHL points than junior PP points. But for NHL players, it just seems irrelevant to me, or at least that the argument is just incomplete. I've seen people argue that there's more variance in PP scoring, which is true, but I've never seen it successfully argued that some players aren't just better at PP than others.

It also seems like a weird argument to make when also emphasizing how bad our PP was and how that held us back, lol.

When discussing "#1C" we are in essence talking about 5on5 production and the 4 lines you roll during the vast majority of the game that takes place at even strength. Special teams is a different animal. As well, even strength production is more valuable than 5on5 production, as it is harder, and more predictive of playoff success.

 

[The Great Weal]

Yea, 71 pt 1st line centers can win the cup... if you have an 83 pt 2nd line center like Kuz

Yes and that is on the rest of the team... I'm not f***ing stupid. I know we aren't the Caps. We don't have the best goalscorer in the history of the NHL. We don't have that 2C that is just as good as a 1C on most teams. But right now, Domi is producing like a 1st line center on cup contenders and produced the same as the 1C on the cup champs last year with far less support. The real question should be him repeating this type of performance.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

6th in the NHL among centers while playing with Shaw and Lehkonen in his first year as a center in the NHL- and on a new team no less....

 

[NotProkofievian]

Because Domi is a much better player than Drouin. Because Drouin literally needed Domi to carry his ass to score 50 points. Like I said, I'll play game and blame the PP 100% on Domi. Is it ALSO his fault that Lehkonen, Drouin, and Shaw weren't top line forwards outside the PP?

Domi is a much better player than Drouin. But I don't see how that completes the argument that Domi would score much more if we had a better PP. Who's going to make it better?

No, those players are not top line players, so it's not Domi's fault.

"71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring"-NotProkofievian

Take a look at last year with the cup champs. Backstrom had 71 points while being the most used center...

Backstrom wasn't even the top scoring center on that team. I don't see how the argument that Backstrom played more than Kuznetsov counters the point that we don't have center who can put up points like 2017-18 Kuznetsov. How is the fact that we have the 27th highest scoring center in any way connected to a team who had a top 10 scoring center and a top 20?

 

[NotProkofievian]

When discussing "#1C" we are in essence talking about 5on5 production and the 4 lines you roll during the vast majority of the game that takes place at even strength. Special teams is a different animal. As well, even strength production is more valuable than 5on5 production, as it is harder, and more predictive of playoff success.

It's a different animal, okay, but it's not a less important one until you establish that argument. Is Domi more valuable than Point because he had more EVP? Is Domi comparable to Nathan MacKinnon because he has basically the same EVP? I don't think so. I think you'd drive Domi to the airport yourself if either were offered in a trade for Domi.

People like to make the argument that, because PPs happen less often in the playoffs, EV scoring is more important. I've actually never seen that argument substantiated, though. That seems like an old argument.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

It's a different animal, okay, but it's not a less important one until you establish that argument. Is Domi more valuable than Point because he had more EVP? Is Domi comparable to Nathan MacKinnon because he has basically the same EVP? I don't think so. I think you'd drive Domi to the airport yourself if either were offered in a trade for Domi.

People like to make the argument that, because PPs happen less often in the playoffs, EV scoring is more important. I've actually never seen that argument substantiated, though. That seems like an old argument.

I'd be very interested to see Domis PP numbers if he played on the same PP as Stamkos and Kucherov, I can tell you that.

 

[The Great Weal]

Domi is a much better player than Drouin. But I don't see how that completes the argument that Domi would score much more if we had a better PP. Who's going to make it better?

A better coach? Not players like Armia and Weal?

No, those players are not top line players, so it's not Domi's fault.

And Domi should have top line players available to help him out. Just like how every #1 C on cup contenders have.

Backstrom wasn't even the top scoring center on that team. I don't see how the argument that Backstrom played more than Kuznetsov counters the point that we don't have center who can put up points like 2017-18 Kuznetsov. How is the fact that we have the 27th highest scoring center in any way connected to a team who had a top 10 scoring center and a top 20?

He was the most used center. Are we going to say that Backstrom is ideally a 2nd line center on a cup contender? Backstrom and Kuzy are barely outscoring Domi this year and they actually have other top line forwards. If they win the cup again this year, you would agree that a 74 point #1 C is good enough to win the cup right?

 

[Guns n Roses]

I'd be very interested to see Domis PP numbers if he played on the same PP as Stamkos and Kucherov, I can tell you that.

Domi would have been a 90-100 point player on that team playing 1C.

 

[JianYang]

I'm not comparing Domi to those guys, I'm strictly talking about production. Toews, Kopitar, and Backstrom didnt put up earth shattering numbers when they were the top centers for their team in the cup runs. We give this management **** about playing Galchrnyuk at wing when he was more productive at center, why the heck would we want to do that with Domi now?

I think the team has MUCH bigger holes than center position. I'm taking our center core over Nashvilles every single day of the week. However, the rest of their team completely destroys us. I mean we have Mete-Kulak-Benn as our LHD at the moment. If Domi repeats this performance for the rest of his career, we are pretty much set for the center position. That's the question though, will he repeat?

I have seen enough from Domi to think he'd be a very good #2 center on a cup contender. The hope is kotkaniemi takes the #1 spot at some point in his career. He has shown me enough this year, that I think he will be a force when he fills out. It's amazing what Domi has done for this club in short order, as center is not the massive concern it was at this point last year.

Defense is the biggest concern for me. Weber will need some help soon, and while we have promising defensive prospects, it's very risky to take the mentality that they are your answers to an aging weber.

 

[cphabs]

Yea, 71 pt 1st line centers can win the cup... if you have an 83 pt 2nd line center like Kuz

If Radulov was a winger on Domi’s line? We’d be in the playoffs. Hindsight I know. Also, it doesn’t look like we are interested in developing Coconut into a 1st line center, which is incredibly disturbing when our past player development is taken into account. Coconut will finish the season as a 4th line winger if you need evidence of my concerns. Hell, our incoming rookies are already being slated to play/developed out of their natural positions. Even f***ing Brooks! We never learn.

 

[Mrb1p]

Drouin was our most used forward on the PP. When I look at the issues with the PP, the first thing that comes to mind isnt that Domi needs to be better. Let's say Domi is responsible for having the worst PP in the league, is it his fault too that Lehkonen, Shaw and Drouin werent top line forwards under his wing? With a competent supporting cast, Domi hits PPG this year.

Actually, 71 points 1st line centers can win the cup. Beckstrom literally did that last year. He was their most used center.

Anyway, Domi hasnt played first PP for like 3/4 of the year.

 

[Mrb1p]

Because Domi is a much better player than Drouin. Because Drouin literally needed Domi to carry his ass to score 50 points. Like I said, I'll play game and blame the PP 100% on Domi. Is it ALSO his fault that Lehkonen, Drouin, and Shaw weren't top line forwards outside the PP?





"71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring"-NotProkofievian

Take a look at last year with the cup champs. Backstrom had 71 points while being the most used center...

Damn you just dropped a galon of gas in my Danault fire by saying Drouin was carried to 50 points by Domi.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I'd be very interested to see Domis PP numbers if he played on the same PP as Stamkos and Kucherov, I can tell you that.

Steven Stamkos works just as well for my argument. Domi has more EVP than him. You saying no to a Domi for Stamkos trade?

People take the EVP argument way too far. Even if it could be shown to be ''more valuable,'' how it's often presented is that it's the only thing that is valuable. Leading to some pretty silly arguments.

A better coach? Not players like Armia and Weal?

Gallagher, Petry, and Weber are better players than Armia and Weal.

And Domi should have top line players available to help him out. Just like how every #1 C on cup contenders have.

Whoa hey whoa, I thought the most used center was the 1C? Now our top C is Domi because he's our top scoring center?

He was the most used center. Are we going to say that Backstrom is ideally a 2nd line center on a cup contender? Backstrom and Kuzy are barely outscoring Domi this year and they actually have other top line forwards. If they win the cup again this year, you would agree that a 74 point #1 C is good enough to win the cup right?

Are you ever going to acknowledge the point that Domi is the 27th scoring center in the league this year, and Kuznetsov and Backstrom were 10th an 18th respectively? Or are you going to continue to reeeee with muh 71 points all night? While you're doing that, could you explain to me why you would use a player's 10th best season by P/GP to compare with a player's best season (by far) in terms of P/GP in order to compare their offensive quality? Because he did have 86 points the season before that (still wasn't his best). Why would you call a player whose best season amounted to 71 points, and whose 10th best season amounted to 71 points both ''71 point centers''? I mean, besides the obvious.

 

[The Great Weal]

Whoa hey whoa, I thought the most used center was the 1C? Now our top C is Domi because he's our top scoring center?

I changed the definition for it to be in your favour and my point still stands.

Are you ever going to acknowledge the point that Domi is the 27th scoring center in the league this year, and Kuznetsov and Backstrom were 10th an 18th respectively? Or are you going to continue to reeeee with muh 71 points all night? While you're doing that, could you explain to me why you would use a player's 10th best season by P/GP to compare with a player's best season (by far) in terms of P/GP in order to compare their offensive quality? Because he did have 86 points the season before that (still wasn't his best). Why would you call a player whose best season amounted to 71 points, and whose 10th best season amounted to 71 points both ''71 point centers''? I mean, besides the obvious.

I think I like the reeee 71 points playing with 3rd liners all year 5v5 and having the worst PP in the league. I'm not calling Backstrom a 71 point center. I'm talking about production in his cup winning year, not his peak. He had 71 points last year and they won the cup. If you don't want to use last year then fine, let's use this year. Backstrom and Kuzy barely have more points than Domi and they play alongside the best goalscorer of all time while Domi plays with Lehkonen and Shaw. Don't dodge the question, if the Caps win the cup again this year, you would agree that a 74 point #1 C is good enough to win the cup right?

 

[BaseballCoach]

I have seen enough from Domi to think he'd be a very good #2 center on a cup contender.

Only 7 Cs in the whole league with more ES points than Domi. That's pretty promising. That being said, I don't think he would ever be a power play specialist. His game is built on speed and not set plays.

 

[JianYang]

Only 7 Cs in the whole league with more ES points than Domi. That's pretty promising. That being said, I don't think he would ever be a power play specialist. His game is built on speed and not set plays.

My only questions arise with his size, and defensively he is less effective. The Cup is a marathon so ideally, you have more size up the middle in your #1 guy.

I don't question his will though. He reminds me of koivu in the sense that he's a smaller guy that plays with a chip on his shoulder.

 

[BaseballCoach]

My only questions arise with his size, and defensively he is less effective. The Cup is a marathon so ideally, you have more size up the middle in your #1 guy.

I don't question his will though. He reminds me of koivu in the sense that he's a smaller guy that plays with a chip on his shoulder.

Seriously, size? We have 3 other Cs who are 6'1" or taller. We can have one small, super-speedy guy!

 

[ProspectsFanatic]

It is great that he still RFA at the end of his contract, I hope he is a Habs for a long time.

 

[Guns n Roses]

It is great that he still RFA at the end of his contract, I hope he is a Habs for a long time.

He will be a Hab for his whole career or close to it. But I think he eventually moves to the LW

Domi-Kakaniemi-Gally
Shaw-Poehling-Suzuki
Byron-Danault-Armia

Romanov-Brook
Kulak-Fleury/Juulsen
Mete-Weber

 

[BaseballCoach]

He will be a Hab for his whole career or close to it. But I think he eventually moves to the LW

Domi-Kakaniemi-Gally
Shaw-Poehling-Suzuki
Byron-Danault-Armia

Romanov-Brook
Kulak-Fleury/Juulsen
Mete-Weber

If Domi remains a 70+ point center, and we feel we have enough other great centers, then trade Domi for what a 70+ center is worth, don't devalue him by switching him to the wing where his production will drop as he expends much more energy battling Ds in the corner.

In reality I doubt it comes to that because 70+ point centers don't grow on trees. One of our 40-50 point centers with a larger frame can move to wing.