Player Discussion Max Domi - Maximus Dominatus Edition

[azcanuck]

It tells me that the Habs didn't help him in his development years. That's what happens to players when you jerk them around the lineup when they're 18 years old and it's why you're starting to see people getting angry with what's happening with KK.

At this point? Yes, after the season he's had I would take Domi for sure.

You are missing the point (perhaps deliberately.) Bowman tried to make Guy play a certain way. Lafleur was a failure at it. Rather than try to force a square peg in a round hole (the way Therrien did) Bowman eventually let Lafleur just be Lafleur. He paired him with some defensively responsible players and just let him go. That's what we should've done with Galchenyuk but MT was preaching 'da system' and told skilled players to "grind" whatever the **** that means.

It was totally stupid. And MB deserves a ton of blame (maybe all the blame) for letting it go on.

He was a top five scorer in the league when we finally put him as our number one center in 2016. This is a season where we couldn't score to save our lives. After a year of limiting his ice and playing him on the wing, MT finally puts him there and once again he produces. That's a fact. And it had happened before. In 2014 Chuck was put with Max and our team's entire offense improved. Then he inexplicably removed him and put back in Desharnais.... but sure, we handled him just the way we should.

So again, good trade for us (and probably a good trade for Arizona as well because Domi wasn't really producing there either) but MB had a lot of luck here. That doesn't mean I'm not happy with the trade or that it wasn't a good move. Domi in my opinion is at worst a 2A center. I'm more than happy with what he's done and finally feel pretty good about the centers we have coming up.

Players initially usually struggle when they come into the league unless they are McDavid. It's part of their growth curve. The truly good ones grow into the players they will be 3-4 years into the process. "ruining a guy rarely happens". Maybe if Alex didnt party so much it would be different. Is that MB's fault?
And since when was ALex a top 5 scorer in this league?

 

[azcanuck]

Turris was from the Tippett era. The organization has reached new levels of offensive toxicity this season. Tocchet never gave a Strome a chance and Stepan and Keller have had really down seasons. But Tocchet is cheap labor; Arizona can't afford expensive coaches.

Tocchet arguably has done an admirable job with this crew of misfits taking them this far.

stepan has been good this year. When has he ever been better? Keller is having a sophmore slump.

but clearly they did not handle Strome well. He's flourishing in Chicago. I think it helps when your a creator like Dylan to actually have scorer's to dish the puck to.

 

[417]

Players initially usually struggle when they come into the league unless they are McDavid. It's part of their growth curve. The truly good ones grow into the players they will be 3-4 years into the process. "ruining a guy rarely happens". Maybe if Alex didnt party so much it would be different. Is that MB's fault?
And since when was ALex a top 5 scorer in this league?

He was for 45 or 46 games spread out over 2 seasons...

Basically the end of the 2015-16 season (his 30 goal season) and the beginning of the 2016-17 season (Around early December when he suffered a knee injury).

I've never put much stock into it, the sample is too small and it's skewed because half of those games he put up those points when the team was eliminated from the playoffs in February and his shooting % was unsustainably high and the other half came at the beginning of the next season before he suffered a knee injury vs the Kings...

But some Habs fans have never forgotten that stretch and it's constantly propped up as "what could have been".

While I agree the Habs didn't do the best job handling Galchenyuk, I don't agree they're the reason why he never fulfilled his potential, he's just not what we all expected him to become. Still a good player, a bit of a one trick pony if you ask me, but not the franchise center we all thought he was going to become.

 

[azcanuck]

He was for 45 or 46 games spread out over 2 seasons...

Basically the end of the 2015-16 season (his 30 goal season) and the beginning of the 2016-17 season (Around early December when he suffered a knee injury).

I've never put much stock into it, the sample is too small and it's skewed because half of those games he put up those points when the team was eliminated from the playoffs in February and his shooting % was unsustainably high and the other half came at the beginning of the next season before he suffered a knee injury vs the Kings...

But some Habs fans have never forgotten that stretch and it's constantly propped up as "what could have been".

While I agree the Habs didn't do the best job handling Galchenyuk, I don't agree they're the reason why he never fulfilled his potential, he's just not what we all expected him to become. Still a good player, a bit of a one trick pony if you ask me, but not the franchise center we all thought he was going to become.

That's very fair.

I see Alex in Phoenix now and have watched every game this year. He's simply not a player who has enough tools to be great or even very good. He's a good player in this league which is fine. Nobody "ruined him". Crazy statement.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Players initially usually struggle when they come into the league unless they are McDavid. It's part of their growth curve. The truly good ones grow into the players they will be 3-4 years into the process. "ruining a guy rarely happens". Maybe if Alex didnt party so much it would be different. Is that MB's fault?

And since when was ALex a top 5 scorer in this league?

We're veering off from topic here. If you want to discuss this further we can do it in the out of town thread.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Tocchet arguably has done an admirable job with this crew of misfits taking them this far.

stepan has been good this year. When has he ever been better? Keller is having a sophmore slump.

but clearly they did not handle Strome well. He's flourishing in Chicago. I think it helps when your a creator like Dylan to actually have scorer's to dish the puck to.

Stepan is usually a 50 point player. His offense has tanked this season. 33 pts in 70 games is unusually died.
The West is weak as f*** this year and Arizona is still on the outside looking in. They were saved by Kuemper moreso than any ability of Tocchet.

 

[417]

That's very fair.

I see Alex in Phoenix now and have watched every game this year. He's simply not a player who has enough tools to be great or even very good. He's a good player in this league which is fine. Nobody "ruined him". Crazy statement.

He's got a good shot (though he has poor shooting mechanics) and good hand skills.

But his hockey sense isn't the best and he doesn't always know how to best use his shot/hands (a player with his shot, should shoot way more often than he has throughout his career).

 

[azcanuck]

Stepan is usually a 50 point player. His offense has tanked this season. 33 pts in 70 games is unusually died.
The West is weak as **** this year and Arizona is still on the outside looking in. They were saved by Kuemper moreso than any ability of Tocchet.

Have you watched the Yotes at all this season?

They are a garbage team in terms of talent.

RT got them playing a very physical game and tightened things up defensively. They play in your face and they dont even have the prototype player to do so. They stopped playing John Chyka designed hockey at the midpoint and I think RT is behind that.

As for STepan he could be their best forward this season. On a team very challenged to score goals he's a solid 200 foot player. Nobody has good offensive stats on this team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Save the Yotes discussion for the Out of Town thread.

 

[Miller Time]

Tatar was a gamble for us, and a welcome departure for Vegas...

Luckily for us, he worked out well for us (except when it mattered most... 1 pt in 4 games down the stretch doesn't cut it).

But let's not forget that:
- he had a career best year
- his career-year = what we'd have considered a sup-par year from Patches
- Suzuki is a nice prospect, but nonetheless still very far from a lock to be a top-6 contributor
- we didn't get a 1st in trading one of the top wingers in the game over the past 5-6 yrs


The "win" perception of that trade still remains grossly exaggerated in no small part by how low our expectations became thanks to MB's bungling of one of the top assets we had.

Likewise, trading our next best asset, Galch, for a less established player coming off a pretty weak year, was far from a sure thing... It worked out well because Domi bounced back in spectacular fashion, though the hole created on our PP by moving our most dangerous offensive talent remained painfully unfilled.... Plugging one hole (top 6 C) by creating another is not exactly a stroke of genius.

 

[WickedPegJets]

Max, more so than Gally, was the heart and soul of the Habs this season. I know Gally had a career season in potting goals, but there were a few games where the commentators said he wasn't the usual bust his ass on every shift by going to the dirty areas guy where Domi received mostly glowing accolades.

Well done Max! Daddy Tie is a Habs fan for life.

 

[ahmedou]

Since 02/07/2018, Domi was acting like a kid realizing his dream. It been a long decade that I didn't see a player as his envergure being ecstatic of coming through my Montreal city. It gave us more luck into the luckness chart of winning this trade. He behave as a true captain. None obstacles are insurmountable with him. He's transmiting his joy of life to everyone who's around by his side.

 

[Miller Time]

His production through the most important part of the year is exactly why I still think he's best pencilled in as a top-line LW for us IF contending is the goal...

He's not we'll suited to go 82 + playoffs as a top-6 C... His style and stature don't lend themselves well to being able to continue high-level production in the face of the tighter play & sharper tactical planning by opponents that takes place in crunch time.

Julien opting to play weal more in the season deciding game speaks volumes to that effect... Would be interesting to see if that has ever happened before (a borderline waiver-wire player getting more ice time than a team's #1C in a season deciding game)

 

[NotProkofievian]

I'm very happy with Kotkaniemi, but it'll certainly be interesting to see how he and Tkachuk compare going forward. You can't deny that Tkachuk would be a beautiful fit on our roster, next to Domi perhaps, and I think he continues to grow in a similar trajectory as his brother. While we didn't know what we had in Domi yet, this is why drafting for need is dumb- needs change. Brady is going to be excellent- I think the thing that holds him back most, is playing on that dumpster fire Sens team...

I didn't want to draft Kotkaniemi for need, but if we drafted him because we projected him to be the best player down the line, I can accept that thought process. He does have a ridiculous amount of untapped potential in him, it was pretty amazing he held his own in the NHL this year despite being as weak as a newborn baby deer. If he can develop his body and grow into a strong 210lbs type of beast? He's going to be a monster. But that's what makes him so frightening yet so intriguing , he just has so much projection with him left. Brady on the other hand was a plug and play stud.

We still need centers, even with Domi.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

We still need centers, even with Domi.

Domi and Danult both looked like top 6 Cs this year, and we have Poehling and possibly Suzuki and Evans at C coming up as well.

We certainly could use that stud 1AC, and I guess that's what we hope Kotkaniemi ends up. If he can be a cut above Domi, we are certainly in tremendous shape at the position and Kotkaniemi will have been an amazing pick. If he's not a cut above Domi, Tkachuk probably would have been the better choice.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Domi and Danult both looked like top 6 Cs this year, and we have Poehling and possibly Suzuki and Evans at C coming up as well.

We certainly could use that stud 1AC, and I guess that's what we hope Kotkaniemi ends up. If he can be a cut above Domi, we are certainly in tremendous shape at the position and Kotkaniemi will have been an amazing pick. If he's not a cut above Domi, Tkachuk probably would have been the better choice.

Danault looked like a ''top 6 by default'' center this year and Domi looked like the kinda guy you'd like to have as a 2C on a championship team. If Kotkaniemi doesn't become what I think he can we're right back in Plekanec/Gomez town. Hopefully you can agree, after seeing that experiment play out, it doesn't really matter how good your wings are if that's the case, and certainly not if you're banking on Tkachuk to take you to the promised land. At least with Kotkaniemi, we have a chance that our longest running joke will at last lose its humour around the league.

But it's still not solved. I won't believe it until the first ''what to do with Danault?'' threads start popping up.

 

[The Great Weal]

Danault looked like a ''top 6 by default'' center this year and Domi looked like the kinda guy you'd like to have as a 2C on a championship team.

Domi had 71 points without top line forwards on his wing while playing for the team with the worst PP in the league. He would have easily been PPG if the PP was average and had even slightly better wingers. That's a 1st line center on a championship team. The real question is will he play like this for the rest of his career?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Domi had 71 points without top line forwards on his wing while playing for the team with the worst PP in the league. He would have easily been PPG if the PP was average and had even slightly better wingers. That's a 1st line center on a championship team. The real question is will he play like this for the rest of his career?

I can't seem to find the stats of it, but I believe he ranked 6th in the entire NHL in even strength points among centers. Pretty crazy, especially considering he was playing with Shaw and Lehkonen lol

 

[WeThreeKings]

Domi had 71 points without top line forwards on his wing while playing for the team with the worst PP in the league. He would have easily been PPG if the PP was average and had even slightly better wingers. That's a 1st line center on a championship team. The real question is will he play like this for the rest of his career?

Domi at his best does not compare to Kuznetsov/Backstrom, Crosby/Malkin, Toews, Kopitar.

We need Kotka to develop and we need to draft another similar upside C or better, if we ever have a hope in hell of winning.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Keep in mind how dreadful our PP was. 5on5, Domi and Danault played like top 6Cs this year, and Domi played as a #1C. Maybe not a top 10 type of center, but a #1 center none the less. Plus we have Poehling, Suzuki, and Evans coming up who are all trending as centers. Suzuki I thought would end up on the wing due to his skillset, but he seems to just thrive in the middle of the ice, while on the wing he gets exposed for his unwillingness to grind.

If Kotkaniemi ends up as that legit top 10 type of #1 center, he will be a god here. But if he's more like a bottom tier #1C like Domi, then I'm not sure he will be more helpful to this org than Tkachuk would.

You can only make the decision with the information you have. Bottom line, if you don't draft centers high, chances are you won't have great centers.

In any case, Jesperi is the only one of our guys who I think can realistically become one of those top 10-20 centers in the league. I think he's only strengthened his case for being selected 3rd overall. I was expecting him to be back in Finland tearing things up. I never thought he'd be a competent NHL player already.

Biggest woosh ever my man

I don't get it.

Domi had 71 points without top line forwards on his wing while playing for the team with the worst PP in the league. He would have easily been PPG if the PP was average and had even slightly better wingers. That's a 1st line center on a championship team. The real question is will he play like this for the rest of his career?

What I don't understand (and this goes for you @DramaticGloveSave ) is how Domi and Danault can escape blame for our dismal powerplay. Danault did get some minutes, and he sucked dick, thus justifying why you can't put him there in the first place. Whereas Domi was our top PP C. Perhaps instead of being a victim of the dismal PP, he was causally related to our dismal PP?

71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring. It's not as convincing when it puts you 49th (27th C).

 

[Kotkaniemi15]

Cool vid

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

You can only make the decision with the information you have. Bottom line, if you don't draft centers high, chances are you won't have great centers.

In any case, Jesperi is the only one of our guys who I think can realistically become one of those top 10-20 centers in the league. I think he's only strengthened his case for being selected 3rd overall. I was expecting him to be back in Finland tearing things up. I never thought he'd be a competent NHL player already.



I don't get it.



What I don't understand (and this goes for you @DramaticGloveSave ) is how Domi and Danault can escape blame for our dismal powerplay. Danault did get some minutes, and he sucked dick, thus justifying why you can't put him there in the first place. Whereas Domi was our top PP C. Perhaps instead of being a victim of the dismal PP, he was causally related to our dismal PP?

71 points was championship 1C caliber back when 71 points put you 17th in league scoring. It's not as convincing when it puts you 49th (27th C).

6th or 7th among center in even strength points. Does Kotkaniemi ever even get there once in his career? Domi just did it in his first season at the position...

As for the PP, I don't really know what the problem was. But we need a brand new coach and setup that's for damn sure.

 

[The Great Weal]

Domi at his best does not compare to Kuznetsov/Backstrom, Crosby/Malkin, Toews, Kopitar.

We need Kotka to develop and we need to draft another similar upside C or better, if we ever have a hope in hell of winning.

Domi literally matched Backstroms production last year where they won the cup. The difference is that he didnt play with Ovechkin all year while having Carlson, Kuzy and Oshie on the PP.

It's been over a decade since Crosby and Malkin have been drafted. The only center that is better than them is McDavid. I seriously doubt you will ever find a player of that caliber with the 15th overall pick.

Toews wasnt producing anything extraordinary when the Hawks won the cup. Same thing with Kopitar, who has a career average of 73 points(similar to Domis production this year) per season.

If Domi keeps playing like this, then we just need Kotka to solidify the top 6 center hole which I think he can.

 

[NotProkofievian]

6th or 7th among center in even strength points. Does Kotkaniemi ever even get there once in his career? Domi just did it in his first season at the position...

As for the PP, I don't really know what the problem was. But we need a brand new coach and setup that's for damn sure.

I actually don't know why we split up EV and PP points when talking about NHL players. I've seen an argument for draft prospects: junior EV points are more correlated with NHL points than junior PP points. But for NHL players, it just seems irrelevant to me, or at least that the argument is just incomplete. I've seen people argue that there's more variance in PP scoring, which is true, but I've never seen it successfully argued that some players aren't just better at PP than others.

It also seems like a weird argument to make when also emphasizing how bad our PP was and how that held us back, lol.

 

[WeThreeKings]

If you really think that Domi is in the same conversation as those guys.. I just, I can't have a conversation about it, sorry. He had a good year, but I think he will be just as effective, if not more so, back on the wing..

And obviously we aren't getting that level of talent at 15 barring some miracle (like people trading up for Tinordi over Kuznetsov.. or Lernout over Point), but that's not what I'm expecting this year. That's just what I'm saying we need to have to compete.