Player Discussion Max Domi - Maximus Dominatus Edition

[Mrb1p]

Yeah i agree. But poehling. Were the oldest player in the wjc. 8 goals in 36 games ina. Whole season, it’s not a futur toews.

Tbh Toews had 18 in the same league

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Right.

MB was "lucky" to get Domi....

Yzerman was "lucky" to get Sergachev and draft Point in a third round...

And I can go on and on with "lucky" GM"s who were able to get guys like Bergeron, Marchand or Giroux...

No, he was smart to get Domi. He was lucky that Domi has exceeded expectations the way he has. By all means credit the guy, but don't try to tell me that he knew Domi was going to be this good.

Folks are so defensive on MB and I guess he's been attacked for so long that's to be expected. But you should view each criticism on it's own merits.

For example, I didn't trash MB for trading for Drouin. It was move that I said I was okay with if they felt he had the talent worth taking a risk on. What I did trash him on though was not following up on that move.

If you're going to trade futures for a player who's going to help you now then go get some more help. We did the opposite and that's sort of where we've been with this GM for the past six years.

We trade Sergachev for Drouin and then we'll trade Max for Suzuki... which direction are we going in? That's my main criticism of this GM. For the most part he makes lateral moves that haven't really moved the needle for us. And that's what I think Domi for Chuck was. Another lateral move only this time it paid off.

So sure, credit the guy. And I'll credit him for Suzuki. But that doesn't mean I still want this guy as my GM.

 

[Sterling Archer]

@Sterling Archer ...again, I dont know why it's so difficult to be objective here.
You want to give full marks to someone for drafting Gallagher so late? Or can you reasonably admit they got lucky on that?
Not sure why this is so difficult.

Bergevin found a good target. Kudos to them. That player is performing even better than they had imagined. Bergevin himself admitted they didnt trade Domi to be a center. He ended up becoming our top center, that's great man! Not sure why admitting luck factors into that is somehow taking away anything. They still targetting him, they still went forward with trade, and ya, they also got lucky. So?...what's the problem here?

The problem isn't with Bergevin it's with your interpretations and lack of objectivity. Just about every possible move anyone can make in hockey is based in part to luck. When Tampa drafts Kucherov and Point who develop into far better players than anyone thought, Yzerman is a genius. When Bergevin trades a 3rd OA for another player who performs better than expected it's Bergevin didn't know what he was getting and got lucky, big deal.

The double standard and hypocrisy is what kills me. Bergevin made a series of great f***ing moves this off season whether you like him or not. He's also made some terrible moves in the past. Judge them on their own merit and not because you just don't like him. I'm far from a Bergevin apologist but can at least look at his deal objectively and say yeah, good job with Patches and Chucky. Now do more of that or f*** off.

 

[Runner77]

No, he was smart to get Domi. He was lucky that Domi has exceeded expectations the way he has. By all means credit the guy, but don't try to tell me that he knew Domi was going to be this good.

...

No GM knows for certain that a player is going to exceed expectations or develop a certain way, otherwise they'd be fortune tellers, not GMs.

Luck is definitely involved as are educated guesses, gut feelings and more concrete references like analytics, scouting reports and the pro and amateur scouting depts. And even at that, they can still get it wrong. It's definitely an inexact science even if it is more accurate than assessing 17 and 18 year olds for an entry draft.

 

[azcanuck]

I agree Galchenyyk doesnt have the greatest IQ but it's not like creativity was encouraged here at any point. He spent 5 fomative years playing MT hockey.
Doesn't change everything, but certainly doesn't help.

(I'm exstatic about the trade but Im also a fan of Galchy)

You either have hockey I.Q. or you dont. Look at KK. He's got it. Galchy : great skater, beauty of a shot. But just not that smart, runs around a lot. Decent player here in the desert for sure but not in Domi's league.

It's a tourny of 18/19 year old, the fact he was oldest doesn't mean anything, they are all about the same age. For his D+2 season, he's closer to Toews than Danault. And to be clear I love Danault.

Yea i'm not saying he's Toews by any stretch. just hope he can be a 2C and provide strong two way play. Hoping he's an upgrade on Danault who I like.

 

[azcanuck]

Galchenyuk's usage was inexplicable. It's Therrien's fault. Hence it is MB's fault by extension. Worst move of MB's career was hiring that idiot.

Yes, it says that he's a bad GM and while he made a good trade here he certainly also got lucky. Three separate points and all are valid.

I think it's hilarious how you keep going after posters and steering away from actual debate.

I've never said that MB is incapable of good moves. And I largely defended him for his first few years here. I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time. But facts are facts. He's been a brutal GM for us overall and should've been fired long ago.

This isn't because I have something personal against him. I say this because he's simply not a good GM.

I'm not debating you? Odd statement. Your getting defensive here. Sorry to dunk on you bro.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No GM knows for certain that a player is going to exceed expectations or develop a certain way, otherwise they'd be fortune tellers, not GMs.

Luck is definitely involved as are educated guesses, gut feelings and more concrete references like analytics, scouting reports and the pro and amateur scouting depts. And even at that, they can still get it wrong. It's definitely an inexact science even if it is more accurate than assessing 17 and 18 year olds for an entry draft.

100% agree. Trying to predict future growth and development on 17 and 18 years olds accurately is very difficult. The key is to stock pile the picks, do your homework in scouting, and you hope some of them turns into impact players.

 

[ECWHSWI]

The problem isn't with Bergevin it's with your interpretations and lack of objectivity. Just about every possible move anyone can make in hockey is based in part to luck. When Tampa drafts Kucherov and Point who develop into far better players than anyone thought, Yzerman is a genius. When Bergevin trades a 3rd OA for another player who performs better than expected it's Bergevin didn't know what he was getting and got lucky, big deal.

The double standard and hypocrisy is what kills me. Bergevin made a series of great ****ing moves this off season whether you like him or not. He's also made some terrible moves in the past. Judge them on their own merit and not because you just don't like him. I'm far from a Bergevin apologist but can at least look at his deal objectively and say yeah, good job with Patches and Chucky. Now do more of that or **** off.

a serie ? come on now...

did well with Domi, did fine at the draft (wait and see, no one can predict what the young guys will become), lucky on Tatar, useless Peca signing, useless Plekanec signing, Ouellette did not work, did well with Kulak, ok on Armia...

there's really no SERIE of GREAT moves...

 

[Hins77]

It's a tourny of 18/19 year old, the fact he was oldest doesn't mean anything, they are all about the same age. For his D+2 season, he's closer to Toews than Danault. And to be clear I love Danault.

When im saying that hes gonna be a futur Danault, you seem to hear that like a shame, isnt? I like Danault, he is a good two way center with a great faceoff % and make 45/50 pts per season. Toews, brought much more points/per game in junior than poehling. He was captain canada. Always produce. 8 goals for poehling with one year older and toews made 18. Poehling never bring his club at the final tournament. Im not a amateur scout, but there is a reason if poehling was selected 25th and toews 3th. And for finish, toews never had a season with a plus/minus negative when he is llaying against best lines, night after night. I want to see that from poehling. If you compare poehling to toews, its because you think that poehling is a futur elite 1st centerman. Im very not sure about it. I talked with denis fugere in Sherbrooke, an amateur scout from los angeles kings. He loved poehling, but he seeing him like a 2th line centerman and this is very good

 

[azcanuck]

a serie ? come on now...

did well with Domi, did fine at the draft (wait and see, no one can predict what the young guys will become), lucky on Tatar, useless Peca signing, useless Plekanec signing, Ouellette did not work, did well with Kulak, ok on Armia...

there's really no SERIE of GREAT moves...

As a hockey GM it sure is. The Canadiens were not good last year. This year is a marked improvement with good young prospects coming up. MB has been hitting taters lately.

 

[Runner77]

No, he was smart to get Domi. He was lucky that Domi has exceeded expectations the way he has. By all means credit the guy, but don't try to tell me that he knew Domi was going to be this good.

Folks are so defensive on MB and I guess he's been attacked for so long that's to be expected. But you should view each criticism on it's own merits.

For example, I didn't trash MB for trading for Drouin. It was move that I said I was okay with if they felt he had the talent worth taking a risk on. What I did trash him on though was not following up on that move.

If you're going to trade futures for a player who's going to help you now then go get some more help. We did the opposite and that's sort of where we've been with this GM for the past six years.

We trade Sergachev for Drouin and then we'll trade Max for Suzuki... which direction are we going in? That's my main criticism of this GM. For the most part he makes lateral moves that haven't really moved the needle for us. And that's what I think Domi for Chuck was. Another lateral move only this time it paid off.

So sure, credit the guy. And I'll credit him for Suzuki. But that doesn't mean I still want this guy as my GM.

I don't understand why MB couldn't add at least one top 6 center before last summer. Or why he just didn't throw money at Radulov, knowing he had no plan B. Or how he endorsed the likes of Alzner. Or how he could even fathom that his D "is better than last year" after the paltry moves he got into.

Talk about a steady erosion of confidence. It all started with him saying stuff and doing the opposite. What happened to the "building through the draft" strategy before last summer? Or how he said that a GM needed to move assets before they regressed too fast and then waited for the last minute to trade Pacioretty? Sure, he made out well in the Pacioretty trade but how would he have done had he traded him a year or two earlier? Or how he haphazardly handled the Subban trade, painted himself into a corner by only dealing with the one suitor who had all the leverage while the clock was ticking. And so on.

Last summer should have happened earlier. We'd have a much better foundation by now and quality disposable assets to shore up needs. That's how a GM with a solid plan would have fared. This GM changed courses too many times, mismanaged expectations, took ill-advised shortcuts, dealt away second rounders like candy and settled for whole lot of retreads that his first coaching appointment played in the wrong slots. How the hell can the likes of DD be your no. 1 center over so many seasons?

MB squandered a lot of goodwill and progress. He should have had a reliable mentor to steer him through the rough patches and dubious decision-making. That sounding board should not have been Rick Dudley.

 

[azcanuck]

When im saying that hes gonna be a futur Danault, you seem to hear that like a shame, isnt? I like Danault, he is a good two way center with a great faceoff % and make 45/50 pts per season. Toews, brought much more points/per game in junior than poehling. He was captain canada. Always produce. 8 goals for poehling with one year older and toews made 18. Poehling never bring his club at the final tournament. Im not a amateur scout, but there is a reason if poehling was selected 25th and toews 3th. And for finish, toews never had a season with a plus/minus negative when he is llaying against best lines, night after night. I want to see that from poehling. If you compare poehling to toews, its because you think that poehling is a futur elite 1st centerman. Im very not sure about it. I talked with denis fugere in Sherbrooke, an amateur scout from los angeles kings. He loved poehling, but he seeing him like a 2th line centerman and this is very good

you seem to think comparing Poeling with Toews in terms of style is somehow saying he's going to be as good. Nobody is making these projections. It just would be nice if Ryan had good offensive to go along with a comlete game.

 

[ECWHSWI]

As a hockey GM it sure is. The Canadiens were not good last year. This year is a marked improvement with good young prospects coming up. MB has been hitting taters lately.

low standards, sure you don't want to change your avi for something with a division title banner or something ?

 

[Sterling Archer]

a serie ? come on now...

did well with Domi, did fine at the draft (wait and see, no one can predict what the young guys will become), lucky on Tatar, useless Peca signing, useless Plekanec signing, Ouellette did not work, did well with Kulak, ok on Armia...

there's really no SERIE of GREAT moves...

He traded away our two top offensive players in the same off season and got back better players in return by a long shot. When was the last time you saw that from any GM? By all accounts, this was one of the best drafts we’ve had in a long time and out prospect pool produced the top offensive, defensive and should have been goalie of the WJHC. We went from a 71 point season to a 96-98 point season (almost as much as Jets and Preds). So let’s not diminish the fact he had a monster offseason and saves his job. So it wasn’t perfect but it was pretty damn close to batting .1000 at least on the most important issues.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You either have hockey I.Q. or you dont. Look at KK. He's got it. Galchy : great skater, beauty of a shot. But just not that smart, runs around a lot. Decent player here in the desert for sure but not in Domi's league.

Galchenyuk consistently produced when we'd put him as our number one center and then Therrien would inexplicably move him to the wing. It was the single worst usage of a player I've ever seen. It happened on several occasions.

And there's no doubt he would never have been KK like. He is an offense first type player. But there's nothing wrong with that. Lafleur was an offense first type player and he led us to cups. There are tons of offense first type players in the league and they're highly successful players. Galchenyuk didn't fit the 'grind' mold that we wanted so instead of playing to his strengths we basically ruined the guy. It was brutal to watch and we really hurt ourselves in the process.

I'm not debating you? Odd statement. Your getting defensive here. Sorry to dunk on you bro.

You are doing what many do when confronted with actual facts... changing the subject.

You attribute my criticism of this GM as being personal in nature. That is not the case. The fact is that he's a bad GM. We have six or seven years upon which we can judge this. Just because he's a bad GM though doesn't mean he can't make some good moves. Rejean Houle made some good moves too. That doesn't mean I'd want him back as my GM.

Up until now I'd say that Petry was his most positively impactful move since taking over. Now I'd say it's Domi. And on this I'll give him some credit. But it doesn't change my view of him or make me want to say that I'd like him to stay on as our GM. And I've explained why.

 

[ECWHSWI]

He traded away our two top offensive players in the same off season and got back better players in return by a long shot. When was the last time you saw that from any GM? By all accounts, this was one of the best drafts we’ve had in a long time and out prospect pool produced the top offensive, defensive and should have been goalie of the WJHC. We went from a 71 point season to a 96-98 point season (almost as much as Jets and Preds). So let’s not diminish the fact he had a monster offseason and saves his job. So it wasn’t perfect but it was pretty damn close to batting .1000 at least on the most important issues.

Some people have very short memory... otherwise they'd remember how lucky Bergevin was with the Tatar acquisition.


the only Habs 2018 draftee to play a pro game so far is KK - the 3rd overall, so let's wait a little before saying it's one of the best draft...

 

[azcanuck]

Galchenyuk consistently produced when we'd put him as our number one center and then Therrien would inexplicably move him to the wing. It was the single worst usage of a player I've ever seen. It happened on several occasions.

And there's no doubt he would never have been KK like. He is an offense first type player. But there's nothing wrong with that. Lafleur was an offense first type player and he led us to cups. There are tons of offense first type players in the league and they're highly successful players. Galchenyuk didn't fit the 'grind' mold that we wanted so instead of playing to his strengths we basically ruined the guy. It was brutal to watch and we really hurt ourselves in the process.

You are doing what many do when confronted with actual facts... changing the subject.

You attribute my criticism of this GM as being personal in nature. That is not the case. The fact is that he's a bad GM. We have six or seven years upon which we can judge this. Just because he's a bad GM though doesn't mean he can't make some good moves. Rejean Houle made some good moves too. That doesn't mean I'd want him back as my GM.

Up until now I'd say that Petry was his most positively impactful move since taking over. Now I'd say it's Domi. And on this I'll give him some credit. But it doesn't change my view of him or make me want to say that I'd like him to stay on as our GM. And I've explained why.

When the coyotes made the trade they announced Alex would play center. Guess what? he's not playing center now. What does that tell you?
he's a good player. But Domi is younger, has a better contract situation and is BETTER.
And dont even go to Lafleur. He is light years ahead of most players. High skill level and high hockey I.Q.
None of these are actually facts by you. Simply projections that simply are not true.
Montreal did not ruin alex. He was simply not that good.

 

[ECWHSWI]

When the coyotes made the trade they announced Alex would play center. Guess what? he's not playing center now. What does that tell you?
he's a good player. But Domi is younger, has a better contract situation and is BETTER.
And dont even go to Lafleur. He is light years ahead of most players. High skill level and high hockey I.Q.
None of these are actually facts by you. Simply projections that simply are not true.
Montreal did not ruin alex. He was simply not that good.

seems to be the case for most players getting out of Arizona...

 

[azcanuck]

seems to be the case for most players getting out of Arizona...

Yep. They lost Wheeler before he even played.
Turris they got nothing for
Now looks like Strome is for real.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When the coyotes made the trade they announced Alex would play center. Guess what? he's not playing center now. What does that tell you?

It tells me that the Habs didn't help him in his development years. That's what happens to players when you jerk them around the lineup when they're 18 years old and it's why you're starting to see people getting angry with what's happening with KK.

he's a good player. But Domi is younger, has a better contract situation and is BETTER.

At this point? Yes, after the season he's had I would take Domi for sure.

And dont even go to Lafleur. He is light years ahead of most players. High skill level and high hockey I.Q.

You are missing the point (perhaps deliberately.) Bowman tried to make Guy play a certain way. Lafleur was a failure at it. Rather than try to force a square peg in a round hole (the way Therrien did) Bowman eventually let Lafleur just be Lafleur. He paired him with some defensively responsible players and just let him go. That's what we should've done with Galchenyuk but MT was preaching 'da system' and told skilled players to "grind" whatever the f*** that means.

It was totally stupid. And MB deserves a ton of blame (maybe all the blame) for letting it go on.

None of these are actually facts by you. Simply projections that simply are not true.
Montreal did not ruin alex. He was simply not that good.

He was a top five scorer in the league when we finally put him as our number one center in 2016. This is a season where we couldn't score to save our lives. After a year of limiting his ice and playing him on the wing, MT finally puts him there and once again he produces. That's a fact. And it had happened before. In 2014 Chuck was put with Max and our team's entire offense improved. Then he inexplicably removed him and put back in Desharnais.... but sure, we handled him just the way we should.

So again, good trade for us (and probably a good trade for Arizona as well because Domi wasn't really producing there either) but MB had a lot of luck here. That doesn't mean I'm not happy with the trade or that it wasn't a good move. Domi in my opinion is at worst a 2A center. I'm more than happy with what he's done and finally feel pretty good about the centers we have coming up.

 

[Kriss E]

The problem isn't with Bergevin it's with your interpretations and lack of objectivity. Just about every possible move anyone can make in hockey is based in part to luck. When Tampa drafts Kucherov and Point who develop into far better players than anyone thought, Yzerman is a genius. When Bergevin trades a 3rd OA for another player who performs better than expected it's Bergevin didn't know what he was getting and got lucky, big deal. I've also said there was nothing wrong with that and doesnt take away anything.

The double standard and hypocrisy is what kills me. Bergevin made a series of great ****ing moves this off season whether you like him or not. He's also made some terrible moves in the past. Judge them on their own merit and not because you just don't like him. I'm far from a Bergevin apologist but can at least look at his deal objectively and say yeah, good job with Patches and Chucky. Now do more of that or **** off.

I never said Bergevin didnt know what he was getting, I said he didnt know Domi was going to be AS good. Theres a nuance to understand here.
And I never called Yzerman a genius so not sure what you're on about. And ya, Bergevin had a great summer, said it many times. Dont know why some of you go into a frenzy once the word luck is also thrown in.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Yep. They lost Wheeler before he even played.
Turris they got nothing for
Now looks like Strome is for real.

Turris was from the Tippett era. The organization has reached new levels of offensive toxicity this season. Tocchet never gave a Strome a chance and Stepan and Keller have had really down seasons. But Tocchet is cheap labor; Arizona can't afford expensive coaches.

 

[Kriss E]

As a hockey GM it sure is. The Canadiens were not good last year. This year is a marked improvement with good young prospects coming up. MB has been hitting taters lately.

Dont you expect better prospects when your team finished in bottom 10 in the last 2 out 3 seasons? This deserves praise somehow?
We are going on potentially missing the POs 3 times in last 4 years but we should applaud him because we have more and better prospects? I sure as hell we would!

 

[G0bias]

So this stat is pretty nuts. With his 60th ES point the other day, only Kucherov, McDavid, Marner, Tavares, Gaudreau and Kane surpass Domi in ESP/60 this year.

One wonders how many he'd get if he had proper top line ES minutes, a talented winger to play with and a semi-functioning PP.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So this stat is pretty nuts. With his 60th ES point the other day, only Kucherov, McDavid, Marner, Tavares, Gaudreau and Kane surpass Domi in ESP/60 this year.

One wonders how many he'd get with proper top line ES minutes, a talented winger to play with and a semi-functioning PP.

Gallagher is tied for 3rd in ES goals with... Ovechkin.