Confirmed with Link: Matthews new deal Pt 3

[Throw More Waffles]

Not as much as you are making it out to be, since Stamkos base salary is 1mil where Matthews is 700K, and JT is 910k.
Kuch might be a different story bc he is Russian and I have no idea the taxation for Russian expat.
Point is frontloading is not an exclusive Leafs idea, other teams are doing that too but since Leafs is the Center of the Hockeyverse, every medias are hinting that is something only Leafs can do.

Ok, but TAMPA isn't frontloading. Not to NEARLY the extent the leafs are.

I argue (with articles backing my stance) that it balances out the tax exemptions in Tampa.

Regardless, let's try this.

Imagine Marner and Point live in places with the PRECISE same taxes.

From that standpoint, who deserves more money? And how much more? Remember, YOUR argument is that goals matter more, and that centers make more.

I fully expect spin as your response.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No doubt about it. Cannot agree more. The front loading contract is not a phenomenon that Dubas, Prindham and Gilman found but rather it is something that other teams are using. It does help offset some of the tax advantages for some team but if those tax advantages teams also use front loading contracts, that’s really no advantages at all for the Leafs.

But TAMPA is not using it. And that's the team we're talking about right now.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

@Gabriel426

Imagine a world where Marner and Point pay the precise same amount of taxes.

Given their stats (Point has far more goals and is a center), who should make more money?

 

[Gabriel426]

@Gabriel426

Imagine a world where Marner and Point pay the precise same amount of taxes.

Given their stats (Point has far more goals and is a center), who should make more money?

Point is going to make more than Marner unless 1. Marner got a lot more points than Point at the end of the regular season (like 120pts to 90pts). I think if the difference is that big, goals won’t matter unless Point scores 70goals with 20 assists-then it is another story. Or 2. Marner has a much better playoffs(not just avg/game, as that won’t matter if Point makes to the final but Marner got killed in the first round) but rather help their team advance further and be in Conn Symthe contention. Only in those two cases I see Marner making more than Point if both have the same tax rate as well as other factors being equal.

 

[Gabriel426]

But TAMPA is not using it. And that's the team we're talking about right now.

Tampa is using front loading contract, and not just Tampa, a lot of other teams are using that too.

 

[Legion34]

But TAMPA is not using it. And that's the team we're talking about right now.

Buuuut they are though??
Also why do choose to make imaginary worlds with tax balances. We have the comparison.

Matthews is goal scoring C who has similar ppg to him. Matthews has more goals. He plays C.

Matthews will make more.

 

[Legion34]

Point is going to make more than Marner unless 1. Marner got a lot more points than Point at the end of the regular season (like 120pts to 90pts). I think if the difference is that big, goals won’t matter unless Point scores 70goals with 20 assists-then it is another story. Or 2. Marner has a much better playoffs(not just avg/game, as that won’t matter if Point makes to the final but Marner got killed in the first round) but rather help their team advance further and be in Conn Symthe contention. Only in those two cases I see Marner making more than Point if both have the same tax rate as well as other factors being equal.

Hahahaah now he is going to use you as an example of inconsistent leaf fans..... when point makes less than Marner due to MILLIONS in savings due to tax advantages

 

[Gabriel426]

Hahahaah now he is going to use you as an example of inconsistent leaf fans..... when point makes less than Marner due to MILLIONS in savings due to tax advantages

I did mentioned if they both pay the same taxes and all other factors are the same. Not like now where Marner plays for the Leafs and Point plays for TB

 

[Legion34]

Ok, but TAMPA isn't frontloading. Not to NEARLY the extent the leafs are.

I argue (with articles backing my stance) that it balances out the tax exemptions in Tampa.

Regardless, let's try this.

Imagine Marner and Point live in places with the PRECISE same taxes.

From that standpoint, who deserves more money? And how much more? Remember, YOUR argument is that goals matter more, and that centers make more.

I fully expect spin as your response.

You also didn’t show any articles that proved that marners contract and points will have anywhere near the same tax advantages

 

[Legion34]

I did mentioned if they both pay the same taxes and all other factors are the same.

They part will be forgotten. Just like he completely forgot that Tampa does use signing bonuses. Marner can’t use American tax laws and Nylander gets 6.96 a year.

He argued for weeks that Nylander was overpaid. I showed him predictive modeling by Matt cane. Who actually predicted the contract exactly based on Nylander s points. He argued that was wrong.

Then he tried to “use” cane as a measure of consistency today... forgetting I was the one who actually showed him the articles.

Whoops

 

[Ciao]

Dumbass earned his new name and i have no interest going around in circles like others have .

I think you just look stupid by calling Dubas a name like that. Its immature and silly.

I happen to think he's been doing a good job, and we might as well disagree about that too.

 

[hotpaws]

I think you just look stupid by calling Dubas a name like that. Its immature and silly.

I happen to think he's been doing a good job, and we might as well disagree about that too.

what's stupid is how hard some Leaf fans are trying to spin the Willie and AM deals as team friendly contracts and how desperate the "true fans" are trying to spin Dubie as doing a good job on every move he makes

if a GM from another team handed out these contracts the same people defending these deals would be crucifying the GM and saying he's an incompetent idiot who's destroying the salary landscape for other teams but sine he's our GM some feel they have to defend his every move to the death since that's what "true fans" of the team have to do

No GM is perfect , even the GM of the Leafs and Dubas will sink or swim based on his performance and not on the opinions on this board . He's landed in a great situation , the team was set up extremely well so even if he does a mediocre job the team will still have a certain degree of on ice success so he should be here for a while as long as he and Shanny don't completely f*** things up .

 

[Ciao]

You got his name right. Congrats.

Now I'll read your argument in a different light.

 

[ToneDog]

what's stupid is how hard some Leaf fans are trying to spin the Willie and AM deals as team friendly contracts and how desperate the "true fans" are trying to spin Dubie as doing a good job on every move he makes

if a GM from another team handed out these contracts the same people defending these deals would be crucifying the GM and saying he's an incompetent idiot who's destroying the salary landscape for other teams but sine he's our GM some feel they have to defend his every move to the death since that's what "true fans" of the team have to do

No GM is perfect , even the GM of the Leafs and Dubas will sink or swim based on his performance and not on the opinions on this board . He's landed in a great situation , the team was set up extremely well so even if he does a mediocre job the team will still have a certain degree of on ice success so he should be here for a while as long as he and Shanny don't completely **** things up .

I do not get it. You were the president of the WNFC defending him at all costs and now you have done an about face and pile on to Dubas for overpaying him. What am I missing here ?

 

[hotpaws]

I do not get it. You were the president of the WNFC defending him at all costs and now you have done an about face and pile on to Dubas for overpaying him. What am I missing here ?

What your missing is

-i didn't like the Dubas/Shanny/Babs "we vs me" media campaign that painted Willie in a bad light because he was refusing to give a discount

-i believed a fair deal for both sides was around 6.5 at that term and i disagreed that saying the only comparable was Ehlers 6m x 7 yr deal that many were using

-i didn't like Willie being low balled in negotiations while the team was spinning bs about being fair in the media to paint him as the bad guy and the reason for the holdout

-that i repeated many times i had zero problem with the team hard balling to a point but that they shouldn't have spun it like they weren't and instead they should have just kept quiet like Gross did and got the deal done

I also believe if Dubas made signing the 3 kids in the summer a priority instead of spewing crap about about how it would take much longer than everyone wanted because he had to make sure everybody including the players pet hamster were 100% comfortable with the deal or some of the other crap he was saying he could have gotten the 3 signed for less than they're going to cost us now . Instead what we got was Dubas pimping himself in the media by trying to spin everything he does as being unique and trying to differentiate even his simplest move as some forward thinking out of the box type of process .

 

[Faltorvo]

Ok, but TAMPA isn't frontloading. Not to NEARLY the extent the leafs are.

I argue (with articles backing my stance) that it balances out the tax exemptions in Tampa.

Regardless, let's try this.

Imagine Marner and Point live in places with the PRECISE same taxes.

From that standpoint, who deserves more money? And how much more? Remember, YOUR argument is that goals matter more, and that centers make more.

I fully expect spin as your response.

Brother, i think you might be overlooking the "unspoken value added tax " that agents force the leafs to pay.

The bump in overall MLSE profits that superstar named/titled players bring to the market is far greater here then most markets and we get taxed for it.

 

[4thline]

What your missing is

-i didn't like the Dubas/Shanny/Babs "we vs me" media campaign that painted Willie in a bad light because he was refusing to give a discount

-i believed a fair deal for both sides was around 6.5 at that term and i disagreed that saying the only comparable was Ehlers 6m x 7 yr deal that many were using

-i didn't like Willie being low balled in negotiations while the team was spinning bs about being fair in the media to paint him as the bad guy and the reason for the holdout

Yeah but events have shown that the bolded was entirely an interpretive error on your part, the leafs started in the 6's and held at 6.5 (your own fair value) and Willy was holding out for more.


You've invented reasons to be mad that fly in the face of actual events.
Be mad that he couldn't convince them to buy in.
Be mad that he slow played it trying to win rather than hedging against upside and getting deals done.

But drop the bs fabrication

 

[hotpaws]

Yeah but events have shown that the bolded was entirely an interpretive error on your part, the leafs started in the 6's and held at 6.5 (your own fair value) and Willy was holding out for more.


You've invented reasons to be mad that fly in the face of actual events.
Be mad that he couldn't convince them to buy in.
Be mad that he slow played it trying to win rather than hedging against upside and getting deals done.

But drop the bs fabrication

no one has any idea at where the Leafs started or where they were holding firm at , many "rumors/reports" had them at 6m x 7/8 yrs and Kypper said he heard they offered 4 yrs at less than 20m and close to 4m per yr

i said the team was low balling him and i still believe that , even more so now since Marner's agent Ferris said Dubas was low balling his client in the summer so if he was low balling Marner it would be easy to believe Dubas was also low balling Nylander as well

and at the end of the day this still has nothing too do with how many people have now have switched from saying Willie was a greedy selfish prick for not taking the 6m per x 7/8 yrs which they believed was fair and are now saying 7m x 6yrs is a team friendly deal

 

[Faltorvo]

Yeah but events have shown that the bolded was entirely an interpretive error on your part, the leafs started in the 6's and held at 6.5 (your own fair value) and Willy was holding out for more.


You've invented reasons to be mad that fly in the face of actual events.
Be mad that he couldn't convince them to buy in.
Be mad that he slow played it trying to win rather than hedging against upside and getting deals done.

But drop the bs fabrication

can you help me out with this 2 huge contradictions tho?

We shortened the length of Mattys deal because the more UFA seasons purchased the more the AVV will be.

So how is it that Nylander sold 2 less UFA seasons then Ehlers and yet got 1 million more AVV.?

How do they argue mattys higher value due to his goal scoring

and yet Nylander being the inferior goal scorer to Ehlers got 1 million more AVV and sold two less UFA seasons?

 

[4thline]

no one has any idea at where the Leafs started or where they were holding firm at , many "rumors/reports" had them at 6m x 7/8 yrs and Kypper said he heard they offered 4 yrs at less than 20m and close to 4m per yr

i said the team was low balling him and i still believe that , even more so now since Marner's agent Ferris said Dubas was low balling his client in the summer so if he was low balling Marner it would be easy to believe Dubas was also low balling Nylander as well

and at the end of the day this still has nothing too do with how many people have now have switched from saying Willie was a greedy selfish prick for not taking the 6m per x 7/8 yrs which they believed was fair and are now saying 7m x 6yrs is a team friendly deal

Lebrun tweeted out a fairly detailed after action once the deal got done and lips loosened. Stated as pretty certain and unequivocal facts, not speculation/ rumour mongering.



The irrefutable thing: Willy came down to 7.5 AAV/6.96 cap hit 30 minutes before Dec 1, meaning that he was above that up until that point, meaning that he was demanding more than "fair money" when the statements were made in the media.

7x6 is not a fair deal, William Nylander held out to push the envelope and got an extra .5-1 million dollars per year for his troubles.

 

[hotpaws]

Lebrun tweeted out a fairly detailed after action once the deal got done and lips loosened. Stated as pretty certain and unequivocal facts, not speculation/ rumour mongering.



The irrefutable thing: Willy came down to 7.5 AAV/6.96 cap hit 30 minutes before Dec 1, meaning that he was above that up until that point, meaning that he was demanding more than "fair money" when the statements were made in the media.

7x6 is not a fair deal, William Nylander held out to push the envelope and got an extra .5-1 million dollars per year for his troubles.

i'd believe these guys a heck of a lot more if these "unequivocal facts" were reported before the deal was signed and then proven correct then after the fact reports that the so called insiders use to try to prove they have inside connections , lol

 

[Legion34]

can you help me out with this 2 huge contradictions tho?

We shortened the length of Mattys deal because the more UFA seasons purchased the more the AVV will be.

So how is it that Nylander sold 2 less UFA seasons then Ehlers and yet got 1 million more AVV.?

How do they argue mattys higher value due to his goal scoring

and yet Nylander being the inferior goal scorer to Ehlers got 1 million more AVV and sold two less UFA seasons?

Because ehlers signed a year early with 1 60 pt season and 1 what 30 pt season?

Willy had back to back 60 pt seasons. Their ppg weren’t close

 

[4thline]

i'd believe these guys a heck of a lot more if these "unequivocal facts" were reported before the deal was signed and then proven correct then after the fact reports that the so called insiders use to try to prove they have inside connections , lol

Are you serious? This one of the most uselessly naive takes I've heard in a long time. Information is limited during negotiations/processes that is then becomes more readily available when the deal is made. That's nothing new, it's a pretty fundamental norm across all walks of business, not just sports.

But sure, I suppose you've invested a lot mentally and emotionally into this fabrication of yours, you gotta do what you gotta do to protect it.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Buuuut they are though??
Also why do choose to make imaginary worlds with tax balances. We have the comparison.

Matthews is goal scoring C who has similar ppg to him. Matthews has more goals. He plays C.

Matthews will make more.

Tampa is NOT front loading to anywhere near the same level Toronto is. (I think you’re equating signing bonuses with front-loading).

I posted an article that outlined some of the financial advantages (for both residents and non residents), but you just spun your way out of that one.

There’s no debate about it. Front loading is advantageous for a player. It’s why they fight to get them. Some are even claiming big market teams front loading contracts is what might cause the next lockout.

And I repeat, Toronto has been front loading contracts FAR more than Tampa. It’s all there for anyone to see on capfriendly.

So what’s better financially for a player? A heavily front loaded contract under Toronto taxes? Or a slightly front loaded contract with Tampa taxes? I don’t know. I have no idea. But it’s anywhere near as black and white as you’re making it out to be.

You’ve made the argument that centres make more, and goal scorers make more. So Point will make FAR more money than Marner, right? Or are you a hypocrite?

 

[Faltorvo]

Lebrun tweeted out a fairly detailed after action once the deal got done and lips loosened. Stated as pretty certain and unequivocal facts, not speculation/ rumour mongering.



The irrefutable thing: Willy came down to 7.5 AAV/6.96 cap hit 30 minutes before Dec 1, meaning that he was above that up until that point, meaning that he was demanding more than "fair money" when the statements were made in the media.

7x6 is not a fair deal, William Nylander held out to push the envelope and got an extra .5-1 million dollars per year for his troubles.

Since Melander sold 2 less UFA seasons then Ehlers and still got 1 million MORE AVV is a travesty