Prospect Info: Matthew Tkachuk or PL Dubois (Round 3)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Evolu7ion

#firelindenning
Sep 20, 2010
3,726
7
Victoria, BC
Maybe it's just me, but reading this it seems like the majority like Tkachuk better due to the fact he has a higher offensive upside.

I really believe Dubois's offensive upside is being underrated. Perhaps this is because he is very competent defensively, so it's just assumed he's more of a two way guy with less offensive upside.

CgtUqXx.jpg


Dubois delivered elite offensive production in terms of even strength goals/60, a very good predictor of NHL scoring ability. Look at some of the names he's comparable too at the same age... This guy can be a scoring center and an offensive catalyst in the mold of a Jamie Benn... That's his ultimate upside here.

He's big, skilled, is a high end skater, has great hockey IQ, operates well both in transition and around the net, can significantly impact the game in all three zones, has put up elite offensive production as a prospect, can both score and setup up goals, and has lots of stuff to work on. If I'm drafting at #5, I'm taking Dubois if hes still there (which would be lucky IMO).
 
Last edited:

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Insisting on this extremely literal, rigid definition of the term "1st line Center" as Top-30 scorers in the league because there are 30 teams definitely seems pedantic to me.

The easiest case of where this holds little water as a useful benchmark, is the Cup Champion Penguins, or a team like the Capitals, or the Stars or Bruins. They've each got TWO Centers who fall within the "Top-30" centers in the league for scoring. I'd suggest Crosby/Malkin/Backstrom/Kuznetsov/Seguin/Spezza/Bergeron/Krejci likely fall in the Top-30 Centers in the league by pretty much any metric you might reasonably apply. At which point you're effectively throwing out the "30 teams in the league" figure as pretty much arbitrary. The fact there is a set of 30 teams is largely irrelevant to your definition when some teams have multiple instances of #1C, and others have none. You're already conceding that the number of teams doesn't really have any direct correlation to the number of #1Cs in this arbitrarily rigid definition of #1C. It's not one #1C per team, which is the only reasonable case in which the number of teams would matter.

It's not really a big step further, and is actually a lot more precise to start talking about players that would be reasonably projectable as a #1C on a good team.

When you look at the Top-30 Centers in the league, you also have to subjectively draw some sort of line on for instance...guys who aren't even full-time Centers - guys who spend a noteworthy amount of time on the Wing. Where's the rigid line on that?

It's the NHL. It's full of blurred lines and subjectivity. There's an arbitrary quality to any definition of "#1C" you can reasonably come up with. Basing that arbitrary line on the number of teams in the league, when there isn't a relevant and even distribution is where you may like to draw your line...but it's still arbitrary and subjective just the same. Picking a cut-off number from an at best, tangentially related data set doesn't make it somehow definitive, or completely objective in any meaningful way.



As far as Dubois and Tkachuk go...

For me, Tkachuk is a guy where it's really hard to imagine he won't find his way onto a team's top line sooner or later...playing alongside whoever their best forward is. His style of play and ability to find amazing chemistry with a variety of types of high skill puckhandling players makes him extremely well-suited to play with a teams "#1C" or "best forward". That's where i see his best value fit. What i don't see as much with Tkachuk, is a high likelihood of him being the absolute anchor of a Top Line, or maybe not even a Second Line. He's an oddball sort of "complementary Top-3 Forward" for me. He's like a super-hotrodded version of your classic "complementary top-6 winger". Looks and plays like a grinder, but under the hood is the supercharged vision, smarts, and puck skills of a 1st line talent.

Whereas Dubois is a guy who looks to me more likely to really anchor a Top-6 line as the go-to guy...it just may not be the "Top Line" per se. His skillset seems more conducive to really carrying a 2nd line if he doesn't end up as a top line forward. Some of that may depend on where he ultimately settles in position-wise as well. As a Winger, i like his Top-line upside more...though the versatility of playing Center is very enticing and adds value to his overall upside for me.


I think your point about a 60pt low-end 1st liner vs a 55pt high-end 2nd liner might be sort of getting at the meat of it though. In today's NHL...the notion of "1st/2nd/3rd" line is becoming completely blurred anyway. You get duos and depth. Your 2nd or 3rd best forward is as likely to be anchoring a separate line of their own, as they are to be actually playing with your 1st best forward on your "Top Line".

That's where you get stuff where you might have a 55pt high-end 2nd liner who plays there even though they could be a 65pt 1st liner...because you've got another guy who can be a 60pt 1st liner, but only a 45pt 2nd liner. It's all very subjective and situational. :dunno:

The NHL is just not a rigid definitions league...categorizing players is messy, multifaceted, and highly dependent on situation.

Jesus, talk about being pedantic. I'm not "insisting" on my definition any more than you or Shareef are. You both are the ones who took issue with my version of the term and wrote treatises on the subject.

I don't even understand your stuff about the Penguins having two first line centres (Crosby, Malkin). Obviously they DO have two first line quality centres. That is the point of pegging the term to some measure of the quality in the league. Obviously on almost any other team Malkin forms the top line, so even though he's a 2C in Pittsburgh he's obviously a 1C *quality* player.

Beyond that I don't get the point of either of your arguments. Shareef is arguing for just as "rigid" a definition as me, he just wants it to be the median or higher. That's still a "rigid", "pedantic" definition. I'm merely saying the cut off line is too high in that case. Guys can be "first line quality" even if the are below the median. It makes no sense to say a first line player has to be an *above average* first line player.

As for your argument that it depends on various factors and context beyond simple production, ya I 100% agree with you. But in broad terms - and that is all this conversation started out as - there is value in having some reasonably stable definition of where top line production starts and end. Beyond that anyone is free to qualify the term as they like. Call him a low-end 1C if you like, as some have said about Horvat. Or discuss his defensive deficiencies in an in depth discussion if you like. No one is saying you have to adhere rigidly to *only* using my broad label. But if you are talking about just production - and that is where this started - then pegging it to league levels is really the only sensible way to go. Anything else - "oh I think you have to score 70+ to be a 1C" - is purely a personal and biased classification.
 

banme*

Registered User
Jun 7, 2014
2,573
0
I really believe Dubois's offensive upside is being underrated. Perhaps this is because he is very competent defensively, so it's just assumed he's more of a two way guy with less offensive upside.

CgtUqXx.jpg


Dubois delivered elite offensive production in terms of even strength goals/60, a very good predictor of NHL scoring ability. Look at some of the names he's comparable too at the same age... This guy can be a scoring center and an offensive catalyst in the mold of a Jamie Benn... That's his ultimate upside here.

He's big, skilled, is a high end skater, has great hockey IQ, operates well both in transition and around the net, can significantly impact the game in all three zones, has put up elite offensive production as a prospect, can both score and setup up goals, and has lots of stuff to work on. If I'm drafting at #5, I'm taking Dubois if hes still there (which would be lucky IMO).

Not that I disagree with most of this, but I wouldn't say Dubois is a high end skater right now. He's a good skater for his size, but he's technically sound so he has potential for improvement.

Wonder why Dubois isn't being talked about for #3

Honestly don't know. I guess because a lot of people see him as a winger in the NHL, and Puljujarvi is more physically gifted while Tkachuk is a household name. IMO Dubois thinks the game as well as anyone in this draft.
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Not that I disagree with most of this, but I wouldn't say Dubois is a high end skater right now. He's a good skater for his size, but he's technically sound so he has potential for improvement.



Honestly don't know. I guess because a lot of people see him as a winger in the NHL, and Puljujarvi is more physically gifted while Tkachuk is a household name. IMO Dubois thinks the game as well as anyone in this draft.

IMO it comes down to surety and timelines. As draft eligibles, Matthews, Laine, and Puljujarvi stand out for their performances this season. WJC, WC, U18's, pro league play. These 3 have consistently been the top players at each event. Thus when you project them there is very little risk that they won't be top players at the next level. Guys like Tkachuk and Dubois might be just as good or even better than Puljujarvi someday but there is more "unknowns" in those projections and rely on both players continuing to grow and improve their games.

In other words there's no guarantees Puljujarvi is the best player of the 3 in 5 years time, but he has the best current odds to be the best based on the information available today.
 
Last edited:

Skead

Registered User
Aug 27, 2010
1,290
26
Vancouver
People wondering why Dubois isn't ahead of Pulj need to remember that Pulj is playing versus men and a very tough league as an 18 year old.

Dubois despite doing what's impressive is able to use his size against teenagers.
 

banme*

Registered User
Jun 7, 2014
2,573
0
IMO it comes down to surety and timelines. As draft eligibles, Matthews, Laine, and Puljujarvi stand out for their performances this season. WJC, WC, U18's, pro league play. These 3 have consistently been the top players at each event. Thus when you project them there is very little risk that they won't be top players at the next level. Guys like Tkachuk and Dubois might be just as good or even better than Puljujarvi someday but there is more "unknowns" in those projections and rely on both players continuing to grow and improve their games.

In other words there's no guarantees Puljujarvi is the best player of the 3 in 5 years time, but he has the best current odds to be the best based on the information available today.

Ya, I simply disagree that Puljujarvi is more likely to be better than Dubois, but that's totally subjective.
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Ya, I simply disagree that Puljujarvi is more likely to be better than Dubois, but that's totally subjective.

Oh I agree that Dubois *could* be the better player, but since Pulju clearly is there today, it tips the ranking in his favour. The whole "bird in the hand" thing applies here and I think that's fair. But the draft as a whole has an element of "unknown future" to it and that is why almost any player could turn out to be the best 5 years from now. After all who would have thought Datsyuk in 98 or Benn in 07 could be the players they are today.
 

lawrence

Registered User
May 19, 2012
16,123
6,993
Number 3 and 5 th picks are abvoius. Pulju have been the suppose top 3 pick for over 2 years now. He's ahead of tkatchuk/Dubois for obvious reasons. He has literally star power, not to mention what really separates him is his size, ( 6'3 210) , skating and agility is superior too Dubois tkatchuk.
 

GPNuck

Registered User
Nov 25, 2013
3,867
49
People wondering why Dubois isn't ahead of Pulj need to remember that Pulj is playing versus men and a very tough league as an 17 year old.

Dubois despite doing what's impressive is able to use his size against teenagers.

fixed that for you )...
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
4,414
I think either Tkachuk or Dubois are in play at 3. But I am happy to get any three of the so just excited to see what happens.
 

M2Beezy

Objective and Neutral Hockey Commentator
Sponsor
May 25, 2014
45,949
31,376
I think either Tkachuk or Dubois are in play at 3. But I am happy to get any three of the so just excited to see what happens.

Pullji will not fall to us guaranteed. People are forgetting the Colombus GM is also Finnish so hes not gonna pass up on him. Also if for some crazy possibility Col takes Tkachuck then u can guarantee the Oilers take Pullji. 0% chance we get Pullji guaranteed. Either way looks like Dubois is the #5
 

Nucker101

Foundational Poster
Apr 2, 2013
21,207
16,740
Pullji will not fall to us guaranteed. People are forgetting the Colombus GM is also Finnish so hes not gonna pass up on him. Also if for some crazy possibility Col takes Tkachuck then u can guarantee the Oilers take Pullji. 0% chance we get Pullji guaranteed. Either way looks like Dubois is the #5
Agreed.
 

y2kcanucks

Le Sex God
Aug 3, 2006
71,229
10,319
Surrey, BC
Pullji will not fall to us guaranteed. People are forgetting the Colombus GM is also Finnish so hes not gonna pass up on him. Also if for some crazy possibility Col takes Tkachuck then u can guarantee the Oilers take Pullji. 0% chance we get Pullji guaranteed. Either way looks like Dubois is the #5

Just like you guaranteed we would be picking 1st overall?

Not saying I think Puljujarvi will fall to us at 5 though.
 

GPNuck

Registered User
Nov 25, 2013
3,867
49
There is more of a Chance of Pulj moving up to number 2 than falling to number 4 kid is the best player in the draft IMO
 

CanaFan

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
19,887
5,849
BC
Pullji will not fall to us guaranteed. People are forgetting the Colombus GM is also Finnish so hes not gonna pass up on him. Also if for some crazy possibility Col takes Tkachuck then u can guarantee the Oilers take Pullji. 0% chance we get Pullji guaranteed. Either way looks like Dubois is the #5

The Finnish connection is irrelevant. He'll take Puljujarvi because he's the best prospect both short and long term at that spot. The fact that they share a homeland is so overblown as far as the "reason" they'll take him. I mean if Dubois was Finnish and Pulju was Canadian the odds would be the exact same that they'd take Pulju.
 

GetFocht

Indestructible
Jun 11, 2013
9,077
4,373
Such an uncertain pick, I'm not getting myself attached to any player until we select him. It still looks like it's 50/50 if we pick Dubois or tkachuk
 

Josepho

i want the bartkowski thread back
Jan 1, 2015
14,818
8,391
British Columbia
There is more of a Chance of Pulj moving up to number 2 than falling to number 4 kid is the best player in the draft IMO

I love Puljujarvi just as much as anyone else here but I do think it's not totally impossible for him to slip to 4 or even 5. Players who are unable to attend the combine and have injury problems do tend to slide more in the draft.
 

Captain Bowie

Registered User
Jan 18, 2012
27,139
4,414
Pullji will not fall to us guaranteed. People are forgetting the Colombus GM is also Finnish so hes not gonna pass up on him. Also if for some crazy possibility Col takes Tkachuck then u can guarantee the Oilers take Pullji. 0% chance we get Pullji guaranteed. Either way looks like Dubois is the #5
Yet there are reports Kekalainen is not as impressed with JP as others are. He likely has more insight/sources close to him than other teams do.

There is no guarantee. That's the thing. Nobody can known for sure what's gonna happen. To me, only the first two picks or close enough to sure thing to not need much analysis.

I would be happy to get 100/1 odds from you on a bet on that pick if you are so sure. I'll happily put a dollar on it. :laugh:
 

Verviticus

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
12,664
592
matthews is as good a guarantee as you can get. id do 100/1 odds on that

laines probably there too. after that, welp
 

Evolu7ion

#firelindenning
Sep 20, 2010
3,726
7
Victoria, BC
The reason a guy like Dubois has a chance to sneak into top 3 is due to position. It's no secret, centers are more difficult to acquire than wingers. And make no mistake about it, Dubois has the chance to become a franchise calibur 1C if he maxes out his upside.

So if you're a team like Columbus and lack a top end center, and believe in Dubois's potential to become a 1C, it would certainly be tempting to ignore BPA and take the player you envision being your 1C for the next decade.

Think about it - how many teams have won a cup with an offense built around a winger... I know some will say Patty Kane, but that's not fair because Chi town also has Toews who produces at PPG in the playoffs..
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

  • Finland vs Norway
    Finland vs Norway
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Slovakia vs USA
    Slovakia vs USA
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $50.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Lecce vs Udinese
    Lecce vs Udinese
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Czechia vs Switzerland
    Czechia vs Switzerland
    Wagers: 1
    Staked: $500.00
    Event closes
    • Updated:
  • Sweden vs Germany
    Sweden vs Germany
    Event closes
    • Updated:

Ad

Ad