Matt Duchene

[JD1]

Hossa for Heatley was a cap trade. That has to be accounted for when evaluating it.

We were decimated by the salary cap. Teams were still sort of figuring out who players should fit, and player salaries were still forming themselves with the cap in mind, so there were some players with what were crazy high cap hit percentages early on when the cap was really low.

Because how to operate within the cap was still being figured out, Hossa had a contract that paid him a higher cap hit percentage than McDavid makes now. Heatley saved the Sens two million in cap, which at the time was a huge chunk of the cap. That's like the difference between paying a player 10M and 6M under the current cap.

The Sens were victims of players previous salaries not really being in line with a 39 million dollar cap, and having a stacked team right when the cap was introduced. Even if Hossa was better than Heatley at the time, Hossa for Heatley was a best case scenario for a team in a cap crunch. They made as close to a lateral move as possible. The type of move they made was probably only available to them due to the circumstances surrounding Heatley in Atlanta that resulted in him being available in a trade.

pretty much spot on.

can you ring Bert up and explain this....he likes to refer to me as clueless so I'm liking your odds of getting thru better

 

[JD1]

Never as a primary threat on any of those teams.

The team that they put on his back didn't win a playoff game.

Heatley deteriorated rapidly and in hindsight, sure Hossa had the better career, but at the time I don't think it was predictable.



Did Hossa ever play LW?

Our whole problem was having 3 RWers who could only play RW.

When they did play together, it was on the PP and Alfie was on the point.

your primary threat comment is notable. I've always felt as a primary threat hossa never got it done but that he slid in nicely behind bigger names.

 

[JD1]

I can remember with great clarity the debates that surrounded Chara and Redden's extensions.

1. Redden was willing to sign for $6M if Chara was willing to sign for $6M.

2. Redden was willing to sign for fewer years, which gave the team flexibility given the upcoming deals for Heatley and Spezza (no one knew where the cap was going in those days).

3. Chara wanted the league maximum over the longest term possible - which he deserved and received.

4. Chara wanted to be the Captain of his own team.

5. Chara had a poor playoff that was exacerbated by his wrist injury (he couldn't clear the puck). This was in addition to a popular belief that the "new" NHL with its crackdown on obstruction would reduce Chara's value. We only had the one season sample size.

There are arguments made that the treatment of Hossa led to the above, but I don't think it's necessarily conclusive.

I was very concerned about Chara because he was a unique quantity in the league and I've never been much of a Redden supporter.

But overall, I think the decision made is understandable at least.

to your point re Chara wanting to be captain

I recall Jason York talking about those negotiations saying Chara wanted a max deal and wanted to be captain and the Senators response was Alfie's the captain. Chia was involved in those discussions, then went to Boston and day 1 of free agency signed Chara to a max deal and gave him the C

too bad....I think a cup would have come our way over the past dozen years had we retained Chara

 

[DJB]

I was initially told a month for Duchene so if Bruce is correct that he could be back on Monday that's excellent news!

 

[aragorn]

Don’t be like that. Perhaps it’s tour definition of elite.

During his best years I would rank the centres below as superior to Spezza.

Sakic
Thornton
Datsuyk
Crosby
Staal
Getzlaf
Sundin(maybe)
Zetterberg (maybe)
Lecalvier (maybe)
Malkin (maybe)
Sedin (maybe)

He was not elite IMO

Malkin is definitely an elite player in the NHL, look at all the trophy's he has won in his career & how many times he carried the team when Crosby was injured. I would take him over everyone else on your list with the exception of maybe Crosby.

 

[Rysto]

Heatley saved the Sens two million in cap, which at the time was a huge chunk of the cap. That's like the difference between paying a player 10M and 6M under the current cap.

Ottawa also dumped Greg de Vries, who I think he was making a couple of million himself?

 

[Sens]

Sakic
Thornton
Datsuyk
Crosby
Getzlaf
Malkin
Spezza

Spezza was better then every one else on the list... just about career PPG in the playoffs is pretty solid too

 

[Sens]

Ottawa also dumped Greg de Vries, who I think he was making a couple of million himself?

He was... I’d like to say 2.5

 

[Karl Prime]

People forget just how good Spezza was because his best years were 10+ years ago (the exception being 11-12). He was most certainly elite. Alfie may have been the heart of the CASH line, but Spezza created lots of space for him, and Heatley probably doesn't put up 50 twice without him. Not to mention he (and EK) helped Michalek to 35 goals and freaking Greening to 17 which helped Colin get paid. Bochenski was a top six winger alongside him.

 

[GCK]

People forget just how good Spezza was because his best years were 10+ years ago (the exception being 11-12). He was most certainly elite. Alfie may have been the heart of the CASH line, but Spezza created lots of space for him, and Heatley probably doesn't put up 50 twice without him. Not to mention he (and EK) helped Michalek to 35 goals and freaking Greening to 17 which helped Colin get paid. Bochenski was a top six winger alongside him.

You know that hockey is played in more than the offensive zone.

 

[Karl Prime]

You know that hockey is played in more than the offensive zone.

So you didn't think Thornton was elite?

 

[GCK]

So you didn't think Thornton was elite?

Thornton was a much superior defensive player to Spezza.

 

[Karl Prime]

Thornton was a much superior defensive player to Spezza.

That's true, but irrelevant to whether or not Spezza was elite. Thornton was the game's best playmaker, and Spezza was right behind him. Heatley barely did much defensively, yet he was elite.

 

[GCK]

That's true, but irrelevant to whether or not Spezza was elite. Thornton was the game's best playmaker, and Spezza was right behind him. Heatley barely did much defensively, yet he was elite.

The original statement I made way way back was Spezza was an elite offensive talent but not an elite hockey player.

 

[JD1]

The original statement I made way way back was Spezza was an elite offensive talent but not an elite hockey player.

Spezza has put up some pretty decent career numbers. I feel that a combo or lockouts and back issues resulted in him not putting up sure fire HoF numbers. Even with those challenges he likely ends up with > 1000 points

 

[Sen sational]

It was certainly a good decision in hindsight to move on from Turris, not sure you can use the prospect someone else chose as evidence the pick wasn't worth worrying about, though it was a 3rd so not exactly a top end piece. Had the player chosen with that third ended up looking like the next Shea Weber, I wouldn't argue we gave away a hall of fame Dman with that third.

The argument that the alternative is we would have re-signed Turris ignores the reality that we kicked off a full rebuild in Feb 3 months later. Turris certainly could have been traded for futures at the deadline with Phaneuf and Brassard rather than re-signed

Yes, they did kick off a re-build 3 months later, and you can say that it was evidence that PD misjudged the strength of his team and should have realized that the previous years cup run was catching lightning in a bottle. However, I don't think you can say that on the day the trade happened PD had the intention of blowing it all up 3 months later, the team sucked after the trade and I think it became evident that they wouldn't be competitive. The horse was already out of the barn.

 

[Micklebot]

Yes, they did kick off a re-build 3 months later, and you can say that it was evidence that PD misjudged the strength of his team and should have realized that the previous years cup run was catching lightning in a bottle. However, I don't think you can say that on the day the trade happened PD had the intention of blowing it all up 3 months later, the team sucked after the trade and I think it became evident that they wouldn't be competitive. The horse was already out of the barn.

I don't think I said that, now did I. What I said was it's not a decision between sign Turris or trade him for Duchene, we could have played out the season before committing one way or the other and then made a decision on whether to re-sign Turris, add for a cup run, or commence a rebuild closer to the trade deadline.

People always like to frame things as one option or another, but in this case there's a third option that's typically more travelled by teams in similar situations. Wait it out till the deadline to upgrade or trade UFA to be, you know what you've got and what you're giving up.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I don't think I said that, now did I. What I said was it's not a decision between sign Turris or trade him for Duchene, we could have played out the season before committing one way or the other and then made a decision on whether to re-sign Turris, add for a cup run, or commence a rebuild closer to the trade deadline.

People always like to frame things as one option or another, but in this case there's a third option that's typically more travelled by teams in similar situations. Wait it out till the deadline to upgrade or trade UFA to be, you know what you've got and what you're giving up.

That would have been ideal and would have most likely worked out much better for the Sens

 

[Sen sational]

I don't think I said that, now did I. What I said was it's not a decision between sign Turris or trade him for Duchene, we could have played out the season before committing one way or the other and then made a decision on whether to re-sign Turris, add for a cup run, or commence a rebuild closer to the trade deadline.

People always like to frame things as one option or another, but in this case there's a third option that's typically more travelled by teams in similar situations. Wait it out till the deadline to upgrade or trade UFA to be, you know what you've got and what you're giving up.

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, yes PD could have done nothing that year and that would have been an option, however you suggested that it being blown up 3 months later was a significant factor ("The argument that the alternative is we would have re-signed Turris ignores the reality that we kicked off a full rebuild in Feb 3 months later"). What I am saying is that the decision was made in October to try to upgrade the team by getting Duchene, and likely in the hopes that he would be the piece that got us back to the playoffs. If you can get a piece that you believe will improve your team (as Doug Wilson did with Karlsson), and you believe you have a good team, you wouldn't necessarily wait for another team to make a better offer for Duchene or wait till the the TDL and hope that the new player fits in and is incorporated by the team as opposed to TDL acquisitions that never seem to gel.

 

[Micklebot]

I am not trying to put words in your mouth, yes PD could have done nothing that year and that would have been an option, however you suggested that it being blown up 3 months later was a significant factor ("The argument that the alternative is we would have re-signed Turris ignores the reality that we kicked off a full rebuild in Feb 3 months later"). What I am saying is that the decision was made in October to try to upgrade the team by getting Duchene, and likely in the hopes that he would be the piece that got us back to the playoffs. If you can get a piece that you believe will improve your team (as Doug Wilson did with Karlsson), and you believe you have a good team, you wouldn't necessarily wait for another team to make a better offer for Duchene or wait till the the TDL and hope that the new player fits in and is incorporated by the team as opposed to TDL acquisitions that never seem to gel.

You're muddying the waters here

Whether we could afford to hold off on trading for Duchene doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a black or white choice. Even if I accept that another team would have scooped up Duchene from underneath us, it doesn't matter, the point being made was about the alternative to trading for him in the first place

The alternative to trading for Duchene was not exclusive to signing Turris to a bad deal as some will portray it. Had we decided not to make a move for Duchene, we could have continued on with Turris till the deadline and re-examined options at that point. Maybe Duchene is gone, maybe not, maybe another center is available maybe not, but we're in a better spot to know whether upgrading our center is the right move. Either way we can't look at it as Turris or Duchene, neither was always an option

 

[BondraTime]

You're muddying the waters here

Whether we could afford to hold off on trading for Duchene doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a black or white choice. Even if I accept that another team would have scooped up Duchene from underneath us, it doesn't matter, the point being made was about the alternative to trading for him in the first place

The alternative to trading for Duchene was not exclusive to signing Turris to a bad deal as some will portray it. Had we decided not to make a move for Duchene, we could have continued on with Turris till the deadline and re-examined options at that point. Maybe Duchene is gone, maybe not, maybe another center is available maybe not, but we're in a better spot to know whether upgrading our center is the right move. Either way we can't look at it as Turris or Duchene, neither was always an option

It's very simple. Wait the month out after our ot/so padded start, losses pile up, trade Turris the exact same way we traded Brassard

 

[Sweatred]

You're muddying the waters here

Whether we could afford to hold off on trading for Duchene doesn't change the fact that it wasn't a black or white choice. Even if I accept that another team would have scooped up Duchene from underneath us, it doesn't matter, the point being made was about the alternative to trading for him in the first place

The alternative to trading for Duchene was not exclusive to signing Turris to a bad deal as some will portray it. Had we decided not to make a move for Duchene, we could have continued on with Turris till the deadline and re-examined options at that point. Maybe Duchene is gone, maybe not, maybe another center is available maybe not, but we're in a better spot to know whether upgrading our center is the right move. Either way we can't look at it as Turris or Duchene, neither was always an option

Did you like the Duchene trade at the time ? I was happy with it.

 

[Micklebot]

Did you like the Duchene trade at the time ? I was happy with it.

Not particularly.

 

[Sweatred]

Not particularly.

MD was one of the leagues top centers - Turris was breaking down and his asset value was plummeting. We paid at lot less for MD than what’s been proposed to bring in a player of his value this summer. Just stings we collapsed but the original deal was the type of few fans wanted to push us over the top … or the small market version of that.

He had a great year with us and that type of player (The UFA version of him) would look great with Stutzle.

 

[foggyvisor]

MD was one of the leagues top centers -

An offensive centre who hadn't put up 60pts in any of the previous 3 seasons was one of the league's top centres?

Ok.