Proposal: Matt Duchene to OTT

[Liver King]

interesting.. theres not a chance in hell id move Chabot++ for Landeskog.

IMO Ceci + Dzingel + 1st (whoever offered it I dont know) is a fairly valuable package, but I completely understanding how it doesn't really fit your team needs and thus doesnt make any sense.

The difference I guess is we know Landeskog and Duchene are on the market (Barrie too? I dont know) so most assume they are gonna be dealt. I am not sure what it is like in Avs media, is there a decent chance they are not moved? because from my perspective it seems like the writing is on the wall.

Chabot on the other hand has already been declared untouchable by Dorion, so it makes sense for Sens fans not to include him in any proposals because we know he wont be moved...although it is completely reasonable for Avs fans to ask for him.

I still think Carolina is a good fit for a trade, maybe the Ducks too...not sure if you'll get a prospect as good as Chabot but definitely a LHD with big upside

 

[Xspyrit]

It was a terrible trade and I knew it the moment it was made.

Conacher was eating up the post lockout NHL and was sliding hard a few weeks before he was picked up. I wanted Johnson or Killorn not Conacher.

What about the rest of the sentence?

"If Bishop for Conacher (ROTY candidate) + 4th was a bad trade, what was Ottawa acquiring him for a single 2nd round pick 14 months earlier?"

Bishop was acquired for a 2nd round pick 14 months earlier and posted those numbers with Ottawa : 11-8-2, 0.917, 2.47, 1 SO (good but nothing to write home about)

He was 26 y/o and had 36 games under his belt... Were you really expecting the moon? Everybody knows unproven goalies don't have a ton of value

Bishop found his groove for a few years with an elite team, and look what happens when the team in front of him is not as good.

The mistake they made is not giving up on Lehner earlier. If they did at that time, they could have traded Lehner for a good return and extend Bishop.

Is it just me, or are we avs fans constantly force-fed players from other fan bases?

Let's repeat. We are not "forcing" Ceci. It's pretty simple :

Avs fans : "we want Chabot + for Duchene/Landeskog"

Sens fans : "sorry we want to keep Chabot and need him. But Ceci could be available because we can only protect 3 D at the expansion draft (losing one of Methot, Dzingel, Pageau or Smith isn't appealing), so we offer Ceci ++"

Avs fans : "stop forcing Ceci to us "

It's the constant force-feeding of other players that's just downright annoying. We are all more than willing to move on from chabot. But then don't turn it around on us, tell us another package that we don't want, tell us why it's good for us, when we never asked for it in the first place.

I suggest you don't come to this section of the boards for a while because that's exactly what is happening here (proposals), and it's going to happen for a while. Not every hockey fan follows everything all the time. Some new people who haven't participated in those debates yet will come.

For my part, I understood from the beginning that the Avs only want Chabot, but when I read things that are not accurate or even totally wrong, like "Ceci + Dzingel + 1st is an horrible package", I am of course going to argue it.

So all you guys have to do is not saying stupid things and "politely" refuse. Debates will be less complicated then. Keep in mind you are not talking to "Ottawa", you are talking to a bunch of different random fans on a message board at different times...

And even the Ottawa media speculates it's going to take Chabot, we aren't just asking for the moon here.

I have read all the recent Avs-Ottawa threads and I haven't read that once from a Sens fan IIRC.

This is why those Ceci, Dzingels, 1st kind of proposals are so infuriating.

Why?

Nobody is an expert here... I don't remember who proposed that exactly but I'm pretty sure it was a casual hockey fan "trying something". If you are not interested in explaining/repeating/etc, just don't come to the thread and leave the honor to somebody else to address it.

Saying that it is a crap package just because it doesn't fit your needs is childish and stupid. That RIGHT THERE is the problem. It breaks the lines of discussion and turns into a pissing contest.

 

[cgf]

It's usually more like:

Sens fan: What would it take to get Duchene/Landeskog on our team?

Avs fan: Chabot+ as a start otherwise it doesn't make sense for us to move them

Sens fan: yeah, i don't wanna give up Chabot, but I still want Duchene/Landeskog; how about Ceci? He's really awesome, you guys just don't know how awesome he is, so you should accept him instead of Chabot

Avs fan: No thanks, Chabot or bust

Sens fan: You can't ask us for Chabot, he's off the table; but Ceci isn't...have I mentioned that he's awesome and you'd love him if you actually watched him play

Avs fan: Nah, Ceci doesn't have that high end potential that we'd need to make a core player trade. So if Chabot is off the table, so are Duchene/Landeskog.

Sens fan: Ceci's awesome though, he'd be great on your terrible defense that you should improve by adding more players who are incapable of locking up a spot on the top pairing; and your forwards suck & are over-rated anyways. So Give us Duchene/Landeskog for Ceci

Avs fan: I think we'll just keep them until somebody actually offers what we'd need to make a core player trade...

Sens fan: But Ceci...[avs fan exits thread]

 

[SNES]

It's usually more like:

Sens fan: What would it take to get Duchene/Landeskog on our team?

Avs fan: Chabot+ as a start otherwise it doesn't make sense for us to move them

Sens fan: yeah, i don't wanna give up Chabot, but I still want Duchene/Landeskog; how about Ceci? He's really awesome, you guys just don't know how awesome he is, so you should accept him instead of Chabot

Avs fan: No thanks, Chabot or bust

Sens fan: You can't ask us for Chabot, he's off the table; but Ceci isn't...have I mentioned that he's awesome and you'd love him if you actually watched him play

Avs fan: Nah, Ceci doesn't have that high end potential that we'd need to make a core player trade. So if Chabot is off the table, so are Duchene/Landeskog.

Sens fan: Ceci's awesome though, he'd be great on your terrible defense that you should improve by adding more players who are incapable of locking up a spot on the top pairing; and your forwards suck & are over-rated anyways. So Give us Duchene/Landeskog for Ceci

Avs fan: I think we'll just keep them until somebody actually offers what we'd need to make a core player trade...

Sens fan: But Ceci...[avs fan exits thread]

Wow, thrilling novel. You must be new to HF boards. Hint: you could interchange the team names with any from any of the trade threads in here and they would read the same.

 

[Sakics Snowblower]

Doesn't make him wrong.

 

[guyzeur]

Wow, thrilling novel. You must be new to HF boards. Hint: you could interchange the team names with any from any of the trade threads in here and they would read the same.

26k post vs .6 post

Don't insult HF nobility please

 

[Foppberg]

Wow, thrilling novel. You must be new to HF boards. Hint: you could interchange the team names with any from any of the trade threads in here and they would read the same.

Maybe, but it doesn't make him wrong. What he said is 100% accurate.

 

[Qward]

Avs fans have every right to demand Chabot+ for either Landy or Duchene.

The reason Sens fans are so hesitant is for a couple reasons.
Besides his outstanding play in the Q this year, he was a dominating presence on Team Canada. We have not been this excited about a prospect in some time.

The other reason is because we have made only a few big trades in the past few years and they all have turned out poorly for the Sens.

Bobby Ryan for Silfverberg + Noessen + 1st (Ritchie)
The plan was to bring in that key piece that could be our 40+ goal scorer. Someone that we haven't had since Heatley left. Ryan has not lived up to that hope and now the fans have turned on him, Silfverberg (Whom has always been a personal fav) has done extremely well in Anaheim, especially for his price. Noessen had a major injury that put him off course and true he did just get put on waivers but at the time he high potential. That first we were hoping it would be a late round pick with our high aspirations for a deep playoff run.

Add that whole trade deal with the Spezza and Heatly trades that did not help us and you can see why we don't want to be on the short end of the stick again.

You guys have some strong talent and are in the right position to ask a high price.
I hope you guys get a solid return.

 

[KevinRedkey]

I don't see any team giving up a Chabot (or better) dman prospect for Landy or Duchene, so I think the Avs will have to settle. Whether that's with Ottawa or not, IDK.

 

[Foppberg]

At this point Ceci is reaching "Bozak + 2nd" levels.

 

[Upgrayedd]

I don't see any team giving up a Chabot (or better) dman prospect for Landy or Duchene, so I think the Avs will have to settle. Whether that's with Ottawa or not, IDK.

Personally I am of the opinion that high end young d-men even unproven, are the most valuable commodity in the league right now by quite a bit and really nobody is going to be moving them at all.

There are not many players in the league that I would be willing to move Chabot straight up for at this time.

 

[JoemAvs]

I don't see any team giving up a Chabot (or better) dman prospect for Landy or Duchene, so I think the Avs will have to settle. Whether that's with Ottawa or not, IDK.

Or they could just wait till the draft and see what they can get there and if the offers improve.

Maybe Liljegren falls to a team loaded with defenseman that would rather have Duchene and add something nice to Liljegren to get it done.

Maybe after the expansion draft. teams will be more willing to trade young, expansion draft exempt pieces.

Avs are not in any rush. Duchene has 2.4 years left on his contract and Landeskog 4.4 years.

That is plenty of term.

2018 draft looks great when it comes to Dmen. So why not hold off on trading Landeskog until then and see what kind of high pick he could land in that draft?


There is 0 benefit for the Avs to settling for a bad return right now...

 

[Xspyrit]

Doesn't make him wrong.

Wrong or not, here are some posts made by Avs fans in THIS thread (only )

I think Brassard would go the Avs way + Chabot + 1st with the Avs adding Beauch @50% (if the rumors are true) or a guy like Grigorenko...

It's Chris Wideman, who's actually worse than Dennis but at least youngish. His offer is a pile of junk for a top line center/wing.

As good as Duchene is Ottawa can't afford to trade Chabot, their d core is bad now and not looking good for the future. They need Chabot to play in their top 4 as soon as next season.

Yeah...no. Moving a top 20 center in the NHL will surely get us more than a large group of trash. We moved RoR ...

Chabot, Dzingel, Francis Perron and a 2017 1st. This realistically in the ballpark of what it'd take to even get Colorado considering.

Ceci + Dzingel + 1st is a laughable offer. Absolutely horrible.

How much money do you want to bet that the deal Duchene does get, if he is traded, won't be the pile of trash you just offered?

Duchene is a RW and Duchene is an upgrade on everything you have.

Laughable...

This was in response to somebody comparing Turris and Duchene

Ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.
...
I probably wouldn't even do my own proposal. Brassard is basically a capdump because he is not needed in Ottawa with Duchene / Turris down the middle...

Scraps for two good players....

This was in response to somebody proposing

Chabot + 1st (2017) + 1st (2018) + Perron + Claesson + Lazar + Borowiecki for Duchene + EJ

Sure that might not be the right package, but scraps?

Players on the Avs this won't get you:

Duchene, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, EJ, Zadorov, and Barrie.

It's a drastic overpayment for anyone else.

This was in response to this proposal :

Cody Ceci + Chlapik/Perron + 1st

This is why those Ceci, Dzingels, 1st kind of proposals are so infuriating.

It's funny that Avs fans think that Sens are "insulting" with their Ceci push. With posts like that, of course you can expect some arguments. If you can't stomach discussing trade proposals on a message board, then just don't come to this section. Of course not all proposals will be good/accurate, it's made by random hockey fans... Personally, I have made a lot of posts in this thread because there is so much wrong, but that doesn't stress me a lot. I do it because I enjoy it (talk about hockey)

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

I know theres been alot of them but I wanna have my own & talk about this

Ottawa feels like a good bet for final destination... honestly I'm not too impressed by a guy that isn't a 30 goal scorer... Is reaching the age where he will start to slow down... is so close to ufa

I think Ottawa has been known to take other players that fit this description... as for trade pieces?

I'm guessing it will end up being a dman like ceci maybe... a forward like Huffman... a pick...

Colorado fans could hope for more but I cant see anyone giving up a proven top pair dman for duchesne

 

[strictlyrandy]

Ceci is to Ottawa as Bozak and a 2nd was to Toronto.

Avs won't move high end forwards for anything other than high end talent in return.

 

[Xspyrit]

At this point Ceci is reaching "Bozak + 2nd" levels.

Ceci is the only D-man of value available in Ottawa.

Karlsson is untouchable
Methot is EK's best friend and is super super solid.
Phaneuf doesn't have a lot of value because of his cap hit. And he was acquired recently to solidify the defense, which he did.
Wideman is decent but doesn't have a ton of value
Borowiecki has toughess value, like maybe a 4th or 5th
Claesson isn't proven and doesn't have much potential, maybe #4 down the road.

Chabot is EXEMPT from the expansion draft

If there wasn't the expansion draft coming up, Ceci wouldn't be in trade talks. Some Sens fans are ready to trade him to NOT LOSE Methot for nothing...

Reality is probably that Sens and Avs don't make a good trade partner right now but HF IS NOT REALITY, so expect people to propose you Ceci since he is the only D-man of value that MIGHT be available...

Once people get that simple fact, everything will be ok

 

[Neiler]

Bro, those offers are terrible. And I'm a Sens fan.

That first "scraps" one there is a #4C, #6D, #6D, 2 low 1sts, a high end prospect and a low end prospect in exchange for a #1C and a #1D. You don't call that scraps?

 

[Foppberg]

We aren't going to deal Duchene with Ceci as the Dman coming back.

 

[Xspyrit]

Ottawa feels like a good bet for final destination... honestly I'm not too impressed by a guy that isn't a 30 goal scorer... Is reaching the age where he will start to slow down... is so close to ufa

I think Ottawa has been known to take other players that fit this description... as for trade pieces?

I'm guessing it will end up being a dman like ceci maybe... a forward like Huffman... a pick...

Colorado fans could hope for more but I cant see anyone giving up a proven top pair dman for duchesne

Wait... Ceci + Hoffman + pick?

But Colorado fans could hope for more?

I wouldn't trade Hoffman for Duchene. Basically the same age, Hoffman signed to a cheaper contract and it wouldn't surprise me if he has a few 35 goals/70 pts seasons. He is an offensive dynamo and a nightmare for goalies as he can score from anywhere in the offensive zone.

Bro, those offers are terrible. And I'm a Sens fan.

That first "scraps" one there is a #4C, #6D, #6D, 2 low 1sts, a high end prospect and a low end prospect in exchange for a #1C and a #1D. You don't call that scraps?

Please quote so I don't miss it.

Like I said, "sure that might not be the right package, but scraps?" (doesn't seem like you read that part...)

- Chabot is not a scrap part (probably best D-man prospect right now)
- a 1st in 2017 is not a scrap part (even if mid/late, that's where the Sens picked Chabot)
- a 1st in 2018 is not a scrap part (even if mid/late, that's where the Sens picked White)
- Perron is not a scrap part (QHJML MVP last year both season and playoffs, I'm high on him)
- even Claesson is not a scrap part (looks like he'll be a solid 3rd pairing D-man)

Maybe Lazar and Borowiecki are "scraps" if you want (even if I believe that no NHL player is, having played against Burrows for example), but all the other parts are great assets. I never said that this was the right package, enough or not enough. I am not even arguing that, I am arguing the choice of words used to answer that proposal, which are childish at best. The accuracy of the language is something important in life and it's the time that the internet changes... If nobody makes an effort, society won't evolve. It goes much deeper than just hockey discussion. All these "pile of trash", "scraps", "garbage" comments are just stupid and does not propel into an intelligible discussion

That being said, would you give Chabot + 1st + Perron for Duchene? Many Sens fans probably wouldn't

Then you have another 1st + Claesson + Lazar (I agree it's really not enough value for EJ, but a great pick and 2 young players is not scrap)

But anyway, it's crazy how people on HF always overvalue the apprehended return for players and when it happens, they cry out loud for being robbed. It's just that people don't study reality enough to predict future reality.

I mean, Hall returned Adam Larsson a few months ago, but Duchene will return Chabot + Brassard + 1st

 

[Neiler]

Just try and look at it from their point of view. What would be acceptable from their roster for Turris? And for Hoffman?

Would you take a couple prospects and some #6D and #4C for either of them?

 

[Daffy]

Lol at Duchene being an upgrade on anyone Ottawa has at rw. Stone is easily the better player.

 

[LudwigVonKarlsson]

So hall (significantly better than duchene/landeskog) gets traded straight up for adam larrson but colorado fans want 2 blue chip prospects, a first and a top 6 roster player for either of these guys that are severely hnder performing...makes sense

 

[Neiler]

Lol at Duchene being an upgrade on anyone Ottawa has at rw. Stone is easily the better player.

Ryan, Dzingel, Lazar, Neil?

I agree Stone is better but your statement is off.

 

[Foppberg]

Bottom line. Making threads of "Duchene to Ottawa" and you don't include Chabot, is an instant no from 99% of Avs fans. So why bother making the thread.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Next weeks thread will be different