Proposal: Matt Duchene to OTT

[Avs44]

It's amazing that the Avs, despite being one of the worst non-expansion teams of all time, have so many elite players.

Well it's a good thing that suggested package doesn't even sniff an elite player - or the jockstrap of an elite player. Then what you just said might be relevant.

 

[Avsblitzkrieg]

It's amazing that the Avs, despite being one of the worst non-expansion teams of all time, have so many elite players.

There is many reasons why this so.

 

[Foppberg]

At the time of the Bobby Ryan Trade he was a consistent 30 goal guy, and closer to 60 points.

Matt Duchene has hit 30 goals once. While also being closer to a 60 point forward.

Its alot closer then you think!

It's not.

 

[dahrougem2]

At the time Ryan was dealt, not really.

Ryan was 26. Duchene is 26.

Ryan was coming off a 30 pt in 46 gp season. Duchene currently has 28 pts in 40 gp.

Ryan's previous year saw him score 31G and 56 pts. Duchene scored 30G and 59 pts last year.

The two years before that, Ryan had 69G and 135 pts combined. Duchene, 2 and 3 seasons ago, combined for 44G and 125 pts.

I'd be willing to bet NHL GM's see Duchene now in a superior light than they did Ryan before he was dealt

At the time of the Bobby Ryan Trade he was a consistent 30 goal guy, and closer to 60 points.

Matt Duchene has hit 30 goals once. While also being closer to a 60 point forward.

Its alot closer then you think!

It really isn't.

It's amazing that the Avs, despite being one of the worst non-expansion teams of all time, have so many elite players.

Maybe if you watched Avs games, you'd realize the problem on the team isn't the young players.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

I'd be willing to bet NHL GM's see Duchene now in a superior light than they did Ryan before he was dealt

It really isn't.



Maybe if you watched Avs games, you'd realize the problem on the team isn't the young players.

I actually do watch the Avs, and thats how I know that Ceci, Barrie and Zadorov are all on a similar level.

 

[Avs44]

I have rarely seen a fanbase push a player so hard on another one.

 

[Real Smart Sens Fan]

I have rarely seen a fanbase push a player so hard on another one.

I have very little desire to trade Ceci. I think he could be a career Senator in a mould of Chris Phillips with more offense, and if not for the impending expansion draft, I would almost rather trade Chabot and a medium plus instead of Ceci and a big plus.

Duchene is a great player; I'd trade Ceci for him, especially in light of expansion. What bothers me is fans who have no clue about Ceci's game tearing him down for the sake of "winning the trade".

 

[Foppberg]

Just keep him dude, we don't want him for Duchene.

 

[strictlyrandy]

It's amazing that the Avs, despite being one of the worst non-expansion teams of all time, have so many elite players.

Where did I say they were elite?

Nothing offered in that package is incentive to move one of those players. It doesn't offer an upgrade on any of them.

Moving Duchene for a guy that isn't as good as Zadorov or EJ as the main piece is bad asset management.

 

[AMDZen]

I have very little desire to trade Ceci. I think he could be a career Senator in a mould of Chris Phillips with more offense, and if not for the impending expansion draft, I would almost rather trade Chabot and a medium plus instead of Ceci and a big plus.

Duchene is a great player; I'd trade Ceci for him, especially in light of expansion. What bothers me is fans who have no clue about Ceci's game tearing him down for the sake of "winning the trade".

You mean like Sens fans are doing with Duchene? This is coming from both sides.

You know what the difference is? Plenty of Sens fans want Duchene, it's the minority who wouldn't want him on the Sens. Whereas the Avalanche fans don't want Ceci, apart from a very small minority who might be interested in him as part of a huge package.

These threads are about the team who wants Duchene "tearing him down for the sake of winning the trade" not the other way around. It's ALWAYS the other team tearing him down, usually with the pretense of offering a package that is clearly not good enough. So yes, Avalanche fans do respond in kind.

It's not always just one set of fans, it's many. But once again, it's pretty annoying to have this same discussion over and over again.

This is basically what it's like in here:

"We want Duchene, and we aren't willing to part with X - but don't fret, Y is awesome and you guys will love him" in this example x is Chabot and Y is Ceci

"We actually don't want Y, but thanks anyway "

"Yes you do want Y, Y is awesome you guys just don't know about him and his awesomeness"

"Many Avs fans may be slightly unfamiliar with Y's awesomeness, however that awesomeness isn't relevant because he is an RD and we need LD. Age is also a variable and the younger the better, again thanks anyway "

" No you just don't know what you are talking about and yes you do need Y, because I say so"

By which time, yes we are probably going to start tearing Y apart just to try to get it through your thick skulls what the Avalanche need and what they would want in a return for Duchene. And yet people like you continue to carry on because it's you who need to win the trade. The Avalanche WILL WIN THE TRADE, you know how I know that? Because we won't make the trade unless we do. It's as simple as that. Now what is a win in Sakics mind isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as the fanbase, but Sakic isn't here, so you're just going to have to get by with what Avs fans universally expect to happen and assume we know what we're talking about, or move along and discuss it amongst yourselves in the senators forums about how unreasonable Avs fans are

 

[BurgoShark]

Top shelf tastes.
Bargain bin budget.

Methot is massively underated. Colorado came looking for him last year and Duchene's name was brought up. Ottawa just simply doesnt have the assets to get this deal done. Maybe in a 3 way deal it could happen but they cant afford to give up a top 4 D man, they dont have the depth to replace a player like Methot. The sens looked worse without him than they have missing any other player this year.

A 3 way deal involving Brassard is the only way Ottawa lands Duchene, as clearly Colorado has no interest in a player like Brassard and his age.

This is why Methot is a good player to put on the table. It wuld suck losing him but it is *possible* that they have to expose him and that would be a horrible scenario. Ceci should have more trade value in the real world but is apparently a non starter for Avs fans. Methot is exactly what the Avs need. He could be a perfect partner to stabilize Barrie. Methot + White + 1st is a very good offer for Lando IMO. Top 3 defenseman, pick in the low 20's and a blue chipper. That's the best offer they can put together. It wouldn't happen if the expansion draft wasn't looming, but it is conceivable this May.

 

[bert]

Thanks for the laugh.


A Sens fan of all people should remember how hyped Silfverberg was back then...
Ceci is not even in the same universe right now...


But yeah. Whatever fits your agenda, right?


Too funny....

NHL trades arent based on hf hype. Ceci has shown more at this level than Silf at this age. Silf played a perimiter game at the time and was a winger compared to an already top 4 d man.

Obviously that deal turned out aweful for the sens. I dont want to see a repeat. Big d men that can skate and eat minutes like ceci that are 22 and are former firsts are valuable players no matter how much you discredit them.

Like i said earlier they are bad trading partners due to upcoming expansion, Ottawas current playoff position and lack of d depth right now. Im not saying Duchene isnt worth ceci plus or chabot he absolutely is but it doesnt make sense for the sens right now. Ottawa should be going after less expensive rental.

The only way this works for Ottawa is a 3 way deal with Ottawa giving up Brassard and White for Duchene.

Something with Anaheim maybe?

 

[simon IC]

You mean like Sens fans are doing with Duchene? This is coming from both sides.

You know what the difference is? Plenty of Sens fans want Duchene, it's the minority who wouldn't want him on the Sens. Whereas the Avalanche fans don't want Ceci, apart from a very small minority who might be interested in him as part of a huge package.

These threads are about the team who wants Duchene "tearing him down for the sake of winning the trade" not the other way around. It's ALWAYS the other team tearing him down, usually with the pretense of offering a package that is clearly not good enough. So yes, Avalanche fans do respond in kind.

It's not always just one set of fans, it's many. But once again, it's pretty annoying to have this same discussion over and over again.

This is basically what it's like in here:

"We want Duchene, and we aren't willing to part with X - but don't fret, Y is awesome and you guys will love him" in this example x is Chabot and Y is Ceci

"We actually don't want Y, but thanks anyway "

"Yes you do want Y, Y is awesome you guys just don't know about him and his awesomeness"

"Many Avs fans may be slightly unfamiliar with Y's awesomeness, however that awesomeness isn't relevant because he is an RD and we need LD. Age is also a variable and the younger the better, again thanks anyway "

" No you just don't know what you are talking about and yes you do need Y, because I say so"

By which time, yes we are probably going to start tearing Y apart just to try to get it through your thick skulls what the Avalanche need and what they would want in a return for Duchene. And yet people like you continue to carry on because it's you who need to win the trade. The Avalanche WILL WIN THE TRADE, you know how I know that? Because we won't make the trade unless we do. It's as simple as that. Now what is a win in Sakics mind isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as the fanbase, but Sakic isn't here, so you're just going to have to get by with what Avs fans universally expect to happen and assume we know what we're talking about, or move along and discuss it amongst yourselves in the senators forums about how unreasonable Avs fans are

Wow! Good post!

 

[Parliament]

Chabot for Wood & Duchene?

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Ottawa's speed would be scary with the addition of Duchene... Battle of Ontario would be fun

 

[falconski]

Chabot for Wood & Duchene?

both arizona and colorado would need more coming back

 

[Step]

I want Duchene but you're crazy if you think we'll give up Chabot.

 

[bert]

What about something along the lines of?

To Anaheim: Brassard, White

To Colorado: Vatanen, and one of Lazar/Paul/Perron and one of Chlapik/Dahlen

To Ottawa: Duchene

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I want Duchene but you're crazy if you think we'll give up Chabot.

How would you ever expect to get Duchene? It wouldn't just take Chabot either. There would be more added to him.

 

[BurgoShark]

You mean like Sens fans are doing with Duchene? This is coming from both sides.

You know what the difference is? Plenty of Sens fans want Duchene, it's the minority who wouldn't want him on the Sens. Whereas the Avalanche fans don't want Ceci, apart from a very small minority who might be interested in him as part of a huge package.

These threads are about the team who wants Duchene "tearing him down for the sake of winning the trade" not the other way around. It's ALWAYS the other team tearing him down, usually with the pretense of offering a package that is clearly not good enough. So yes, Avalanche fans do respond in kind.

It's not always just one set of fans, it's many. But once again, it's pretty annoying to have this same discussion over and over again.

This is basically what it's like in here:

"We want Duchene, and we aren't willing to part with X - but don't fret, Y is awesome and you guys will love him" in this example x is Chabot and Y is Ceci

"We actually don't want Y, but thanks anyway "

"Yes you do want Y, Y is awesome you guys just don't know about him and his awesomeness"

"Many Avs fans may be slightly unfamiliar with Y's awesomeness, however that awesomeness isn't relevant because he is an RD and we need LD. Age is also a variable and the younger the better, again thanks anyway "

" No you just don't know what you are talking about and yes you do need Y, because I say so"

By which time, yes we are probably going to start tearing Y apart just to try to get it through your thick skulls what the Avalanche need and what they would want in a return for Duchene. And yet people like you continue to carry on because it's you who need to win the trade. The Avalanche WILL WIN THE TRADE, you know how I know that? Because we won't make the trade unless we do. It's as simple as that. Now what is a win in Sakics mind isn't necessarily going to be the same thing as the fanbase, but Sakic isn't here, so you're just going to have to get by with what Avs fans universally expect to happen and assume we know what we're talking about, or move along and discuss it amongst yourselves in the senators forums about how unreasonable Avs fans are

The market will pay what the market will pay. Yashin got a King's ransom. Spezza got spare parts. Duchene will get something in between and only time will tell who wins.

 

[Xspyrit]

Add in Spezza,s 7.5 mil per and a NMC and generally that would kill most of his worth ,Somewhat the same for Bishop as he was expected to become a UFA the next season

Well, you know like me that some people refuse to understand context and a pragmatic approach. What about these questions?

- If Bishop for Conacher (ROTY candidate) + 4th was a bad trade, what was Ottawa acquiring for a single 2nd round pick 14 months earlier? Bishop was basically what Condon is right now. He didn't have a ton of value at the time of the trade and like you said, they had to trade somebody (he was going to be UFA) and it was not going to be Anderson (starter) or Lehner (starter of the future)

- Spezza said he would not re-sign in Ottawa and had 1 year left on his contract. He had declined quite a bit already and was going to ask huge $. So the team acquiring him knew he wouldn't come cheap if they could re-sign him. Not to mention his back problems... The Sens were able to get a good package for Nashville but he refused like every star player in this league can. When you gather all these facts, were people really expecting much more for Spezza?

Hoffman + Ceci for Duchene.

I wouldn't make that trade. Hoffman is an Elite talent (shot, skating, puck skills) like Duchene. He is currently on pace for 35 goals and 68 points... He is also signed to a very good contract (4 years x 5.187). 1 v 1 is already fair value (and I wouldn't make that move), adding Ceci means a quick no from Ottawa.

Well Team Canada's brass figured in 2014 and this last year that they would rather have Duchene on their team than Hall, so there is that. I doubt they flipped a coin both times, clearly they felt that Duchene - however small his impact in the 11th / 12th forward role - would be more valuable than Hall in the 11th / 12th forward role.

Yeah but that was 3 years ago and Duchene regressed since... Not saying I put a lot of stock in HF's opinion but when it's lopsided... but people seem to think that Hall is a better player... I made a poll out of curiosity and the results aren't close.

How narratives do change...

What narratives? I never ever participated in that RoR debate at that time, nor do I care

O'Reilly was an impending UFA demanding 8 million per year from the Avs, after a relationship destroyed by him signing for 2 years in the KHL, an offer-sheet, and the brink of arbitration. The Avs had to trade O'Reilly, and everyone knew that, and I imagine that GM's less bold than Tim Murray were wary of putting in a good offer for a player wanting a lot of money that could go to UFA on them. The Avs don't have to remotely trade Duchene, and there are no contract issues. I see a significant gulf in value.

I also comfortably take Zads over Ceci. Do Avs fans expect him to be a beast? In a sense, yes. If you come to our Nikita Zadorov thread on our board you'll see some fun videos and gifs scattered through it. He makes many mistakes, but he's not remotely being sheltered - the team has been missing EJ for a while now, and Barrie for the past two games to boot - and he's looking really, really good. He manhandles opposing forwards, and of late he's playing over 20 minutes a game every night. When he was traded to the Avs he was 19 years old I believe. He's 21 now. Ceci is 23. I'll be surprised if Ceci is more than a good second pairing defender in his career. I doubt that was the ceiling that the Avs, and certainly not this board and Sabres fans, had put on a then 19 year old Zadorov.

Ok even if I give you that Duchene has more value than RoR had (can't be that much since RoR is a more useful player), and that Zadorov HAD more value than Ceci has today... Dzingel vs Compher and mid 1st vs early 2nd isn't remotely close...

And if I was you, I wouldn't be too quick in saying Zadorov > Ceci... Ceci plays more than Erik Karlsson at times and is 2nd OA in ice-time (1st on PK) on a top-10 team with good defensive metrics (despite missing their N.1 goalie)

So you're just trolling?

Me? The guy is super entitled to his opinions, so I know that the only thing that can actually "change his mind", is the cold reality... so I'm taking a wait and see approach... What else can I do? He won't come closer to reality

He said "Ceci + Dzingel + 1st is a laughable offer. Absolutely horrible."

So he is saying that Larsson (at the time of the trade) >>>>> Ceci + Dzingel + 1st even though Hall > Duchene

Do you guys get that?

Yes, in case you failed to realize, everything is relative. JT Compher isn't a crap prospect. Nor is Meloche. Nor is the Avs 2nd rounder a bad pick, it will likely be 32nd. But if I combined a bunch of pieces like that and offered them for Erik Karlsson (and no, I'm not comparing Duchene and Karlsson, it's an example), they would be, yes, relative crap. I'm sorry calling a pathetic offer of a career bottom 6 forward in Lazar, and pieces like Harpur and Wideman, trash, when discussing Matt Duchene, offended you so badly. Give me a break.

What are you talking about? Did I ever say that Compher is a crap prospect? You can propose a super bad deal for Karlsson if you want but I won't get offended and call your prospects/depth players trash. You know why? Because I am an adult and know that we are just hockey fans discussing hockey. The point is not that the offer was super bad, which is true, is that no NHL players are a pile of trash to begin with. Only teenagers talk like that in my books.

Wideman is actually pretty good for a 3rd pairing D-man. Claesson is also looking good for the 3rd pair. Englund is a good/great prospect that could even be a 2nd pairing D-man. Lazar is a good 4th liner, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like he will be much more, maybe a 3rd liner down the road. A pick is relative, who knows which pick that poster was talking about?

Super underhwelming offer? Yes.

Pile of trash? No.

People on here love speaking up about things they know nothing about.

"ROR was an RFA to be" is this thread in a nutshell. Bold proclamations that aren't based at all in reality.

Calm down here. Micklebot is by far the best poster I have read regularly on HF and I have read a lot of stuff. He made a mistake, big deal. If more posters were as rational and pragmatic, it would make for an adult discussion on HF... which is not always the case.

Zadorov is becoming a beast this season. Grigorenko is one of those guys who needs to play with talented players to be of use, but isn't good enough for a regular top 6 spot, so probbaly won't work out; but Compher is playing extremely well in his first pro-season and looks to be well on his way to being a very effective middle 6er...as is that pick which you're trying to write off; given that AJ Greer is having an excellent first pro season next to Compher, as he's earned himself a spot on the AHL Allstar team.

The ROR return was a killer deal when you consider ROR's contract situation (1 year from UFA with huge demands + a history of difficult negotiations) and that the avs had to trade him that offseason, while with Landy & Duchene they are in no rush to make a move...nevermind that Duchene is simply the better player and should hold more value from that fact alone, even before factoring in their contract statuses. ROR's awesome, I'm glad he went to my second favorite team, I wish we had another ROR on the team now, and seeing him finally getting recognized since leaving the avs has been neat; but Duchene is still the better player.

What am I trying to write off? I'm saying that a mid 1st round pick has more value than an early 2nd round pick. And picks remain crap-shoot lotto tickets. You actually have to make a good selection and develop the prospect well to make it a success. It also implies luck regarding injuries, etc.

And about RoR vs Duchene, it's a matter of opinion but in the last few years my opinion is that RoR > Duchene.

That's what the website says, but that's complete misreporting. They are referencing an article by Ken Warren, in which he mentions Chabot and White. Here is the passage:

...

Seems like danslescoulisses.com is taking Warrens speculation, misinterpreting it, and reporting it as a rumour.

Dang, that's very poor journalism. Can't even report a simple quote correctly.

 

[Liver King]

maybe this hasn't been asked in here, with all the whining from both sides, but what is the difference in price to acquire Landeskog? 16 pts on the season and has seen some decline in production each year

if Duchene is gonna cost us Chabot++, whats Landeskogs asking price?

 

[Engineer]

delete

 

[Xspyrit]

Thanks for the laugh.

A Sens fan of all people should remember how hyped Silfverberg was back then...
Ceci is not even in the same universe right now...

Fans hyping him has nothing to do with how scouts and GMs evaluated the player

Silf was 22 y/o and posted 19 pts in 48 games. 4 years later he still hasn't cracked 40 pts. That's what I was thinking back then : looks like he'll become an elite 3rd liner. This year he looks a bit more but he didn't look that he'd turn into a world beater. Not enough speed and quickness.

That being said I would say his comparison was a bit off

Ceci => Silfverberg
2017 1st > 2014 1st (very weak draft)
Dzingel >> Noesen (Dzingel is proven, super fast and is not dealing with the injuries Noesen had to)

How is Noesen's value today remotely comparable to his value back when he was traded in 2013?? Terrible logic. Also, talk about a ridiculous overrating of Ceci there.

Noesen had little value back then. He was dealing with career threatening injuries. He basically missed the 2 most important years for his development.

Matt Duchene is a much, much better player than Bobby Ryan.

Maybe but they produce close to the same. You also missed the point as the comparison was back in time.

Ummm..

Players on the Avs this won't get you:

Duchene, MacKinnon, Rantanen, Landeskog, EJ, Zadorov, and Barrie.

It's a drastic overpayment for anyone else.

Wow I'm lost for words.

It's amazing that the Avs, despite being one of the worst non-expansion teams of all time, have so many elite players.

I have rarely seen a fanbase push a player so hard on another one.

I don't see anybody "pushing Ceci". We're just trying to avoid Avs fans to say that he is trash.

Offers? Yes, you can expect to receive offers on a message board and you can't expect everyone to have read previous threads/offers. So new Sens fans might eventually ask again.

It's not always just one set of fans, it's many. But once again, it's pretty annoying to have this same discussion over and over again.

You are not obliged to come again though.

The only way this works for Ottawa is a 3 way deal with Ottawa giving up Brassard and White for Duchene.

This. Ottawa has Turris and Brassard. If they want to upgrade to Duchene, they have to use Brassard value (because Turris is too close to Duchene) because that would create a logjam at Center, unless they want to play Duchene on the Wing?

What about something along the lines of?

To Anaheim: Brassard, White

To Colorado: Vatanen, and one of Lazar/Paul/Perron and one of Chlapik/Dahlen

To Ottawa: Duchene

Ok I am NOT giving up Brassard, White, Perron and Dahlen for Duchene

That's crazy overpayment. Maybe Duchene has more value than Brassard but Derick has a better contract for the Sens (in terms of $) and his production is very similar to Duchene in the last few years. I am not sacrificing White, Perron and Dahlen for that upgrade.

And I don't think Vatanen value is close to Brassard + White either

 

[Benttheknee]

I'll be waiting for a post of me calling Ceci worthless. And by all means, keep him - I'm not saying he's garbage. We want Chabot, and in every single proposal of Duchene or Landy to the Avs, including over on your board, Ceci's name is brought up, incessantly, by Ottawa fans - nonstop. Not seeing any Avs fans pining for the guy, just Sens fans doing their best salesman impression in every single thread to sell the guy to Avs fans.

You are missing the point. Sens fan would trade Ceci before Chabot because of the Vegas draft. They actually have similar value other wise