Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI, OTT inquired - Part IV

[cgf]

Yeah, so have the Toronto Maple Leafs...Joe Sakic is to blame.

Sakic is getting free pass after free pass, excuse after excuse...He's been with the front office since 2011? GM since 2014...

If he's not to blame, who is? The captain, goalie, owner? The team has 14 less points than the clearly rebuilding/tanking Coyotes. Just think about that for some time...

Sakic, Roy, this organization's longstanding neglect of youth n development, Pracey's awful post-2009 drafts, the depth players and vets quitting on the coach, injuries, they team wide lack of confidence, the inept PP, etc.; there's a lot of blame to go around. But that doesn't mean Sakic doesn't have any redeeming qualities or deserves all of the blame.

 

[ThunderBird]

Yeah, so have the Toronto Maple Leafs...Joe Sakic is to blame.

Sakic is getting free pass after free pass, excuse after excuse...He's been with the front office since 2011? GM since 2014...

If he's not to blame, who is? The captain, goalie, owner? The team has 14 less points than the clearly rebuilding/tanking Coyotes. Just think about that for some time...

Most Avs fans would love to see Joe go. I don't think many Avs fans are saying he is a good GM. What I think most are saying is that it was good that he didn't give one of our core players up for less than what we need. Also the pipeline was completely dry when he became GM and now we are getting some water in there.

 

[lindroshomer]

Sakic, Roy, this organization's longstanding neglect of youth n development, Pracey's awful post-2009 drafts, the depth players and vets quitting on the coach, injuries, they team wide lack of confidence, the inept PP, etc.; there's a lot of blame to go around. But that doesn't mean Sakic doesn't have any redeeming qualities or deserves all of the blame.

Actually from a contractual standpoint where he's got the final say on the roster, it means exactly that.

 

[Diatomic]

Avs are already dead last and will be 30th overall in the standings by the time the season ends. No rush to trade Duchene or Landy as it won't affect them in the standings and they'll still have the best chance of getting #1st OA. If they were trending way up due to duchene or landy getting hot, trading them would be a more viable option as it would affect their lottery chances.

 

[triggrman]

Zadorov - EJ is not a top pairing on a playoff team, IMHO....

 

[Ice Crusher]

Let's just get this out in the open here...Joe Sakic may be a great hockey player, and a better person. His team is dead last in the NHL and he's the GM...SO he's not a good GM, it's that simple. 0 playoff appearances since he's officially been GM. He is living off his accomplishments as a player and person in Colorado.

So people giving Joe Sakic some benefit of the doubt that the twitter rumors are in no way possible, that they aren't valid speculation, are just being ridiculous. Joe Sakic is as good of a GM as the guy who's team is dead last all season can be good. This would then seep into things like trade discussions/decisions and how he generally goes about his business...that of the worst performing team in the league. ******...

It's not that far fetched to speculate that Sakic **** the bed and was acting a fool, key word is speculate. As far as Joe Sakic being a good guy goes, I am sure loads of people in the media are doing him a solid if the time comes. To me, it's cut and dry, Sakic all season was trying to move Duchene and Landeskog...and didn't, if nobody was going to meet his asking price, it would have been a non issue. It would have been "they're on the market, but nobody will make a move because Sakic has too high of an asking price"...back in December. Not the day after the trade deadline.

tl;dr Nice job Joe Sakic, your team is dead last in the NHL and you've got the same group next season. Same group of losers and their crappy mentality. Bring those top end prospects into that "winning" culture.

Sakic won the division his first year as a GM...

 

[cgf]

Zadorov - EJ is not a top pairing on a playoff team, IMHO....

They wouldn't be an elite top pairing or anything; but Zads-EJ were very effective together this season (with Zads having improved a lot through this season); that second pairing would be very strong and could do some of the heavy lifting; and we'd have a legit third pairing that could eat some real minutes for the first time in ages. Plus the top 9 would be stacked if Radulov joined the party, no one got traded away, and we got some lotto luck; so even if the d didn't give the avs an advantage over other teams it would be strong enough to allow the advantage up front to make a difference.

Either way, my whole point was that that best case scenario was highly unlikely.

 

[cgf]

Actually from a contractual standpoint where he's got the final say on the roster, it means exactly that.

If you just want someone to dump the blame on instead of understanding why the avs are where they are and Sakic's actual abilities as a GM; then sure.

 

[RockLobster]

Sakic won the division his first year as a GM...

I think the use of the word "officially" there is on purpose, as technically Joe was not the GM in title during that season (though he made it clear in his introductory news conference that he, and he alone, had final say over the player personnel decisions).

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Friedman's 30 thoughts.

9. If Duchene was eligible for an extension and the Carolina Hurricanes believed they could get it done, my best guess is he’d be there. But the Hurricanes weren’t paying the price for a two-year gamble.

But wait, I thought the concern over 2 years was only a figment of fans' imagination.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Friedman's 30 thoughts.



But wait, I thought the concern over 2 years was only a figment of fans' imagination.

It's two years for the hurricanes because they're out of it this year. Competitive winning GM's would have seen Duchene as 3 years if they got him at the deadline because it's 3 full playoffs.

I don't blame the Hurricanes for not coughing up what it took to get him. Teams like the Habs on the other hand are different. They haven't had a #1C in two decades and had an opportunity to get one this year who would be around for at least 3 full playoffs. Their window is likely in these 3 years also.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

It's two years for the hurricanes because they're out of it this year. Competitive winning GM's would have seen Duchene as 3 years if they got him at the deadline because it's 3 full playoffs.

Yep...exactly. That's what we Canes fans have been saying (wrt to Duchene for Hanifin based deals). We've been saying all along we weren't a playoff team this year so it was essentially 2 years, yet multiple Avs fans said we were being ridiculous and that was only something fans worry about.

I don't blame the Hurricanes for not coughing up what it took to get him. Teams like the Habs on the other hand are different. They haven't had a #1C in two decades and had an opportunity to get one this year who would be around for at least 3 full playoffs. Their window is likely in these 3 years also.

Agree again, which is consistent with what many of us Canes fans were saying.

 

[Cherpak]

Most Avs fans would love to see Joe go. I don't think many Avs fans are saying he is a good GM. What I think most are saying is that it was good that he didn't give one of our core players up for less than what we need. Also the pipeline was completely dry when he became GM and now we are getting some water in there.

Its my understanding that both the Islanders and Penguins offered what you NEED. That wasn't the issue. At least not with the GMs working the deal.

What the issue here it seems isn't what Colorado actually needed that was offered but what Colorado, their fans included, WANT. Big difference.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

What the issue here it seems isn't what Colorado actually needed that was offered but what Colorado, their fans included, WANT. Big difference.

And thus the long, excruciating march to a land called Mediocrity continued. Funny how a good portion of Avs fans here bashed the Hall-Larsson trade.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Its my understanding that both the Islanders and Penguins offered what you NEED. That wasn't the issue. At least not with the GMs working the deal.

What the issue here it seems isn't what Colorado actually needed that was offered but what Colorado, their fans included, WANT. Big difference.

That's semantics though. Sakic threw out a category of what he needs, but there's wide variation within that. For example, which high potential, young defenseman (a NEED) could Pittsburgh even offer?

 

[EdAVSfan]

And thus the long, excruciating march to a land called Mediocrity continued. Funny how a good portion of Avs fans here bashed the Hall-Larsson trade.

It's be interesting to see what the oilers would have done if mcdavid wasn't part of the picture.

I'm pretty sure if the avs had somehow landed mcdavid, all fans would be happy to overpay for a dman as well.

Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury.

I'm not sure if the oilers pull the trigger in that trade if they don't win the lottery.

Let's not pretend that Maatta, jarry and a 1st was going to cure the avs mediocrity.

 

[ThunderBird]

Its my understanding that both the Islanders and Penguins offered what you NEED. That wasn't the issue. At least not with the GMs working the deal.

What the issue here it seems isn't what Colorado actually needed that was offered but what Colorado, their fans included, WANT. Big difference.

A basic parameter for a deal was put out the Islanders and Penguins filled the parameters but they didn't give us what we needed. The Av's need a top pairing D so we are willing to gamble on a top pairing potential D. The Av's want some younger pieces and picks to make it a better gamble for us.

Name the need piece that Penguins or the Islander offered or could have offered to fit the need.

 

[Jeffrey]

It's two years for the hurricanes because they're out of it this year. Competitive winning GM's would have seen Duchene as 3 years if they got him at the deadline because it's 3 full playoffs.

I don't blame the Hurricanes for not coughing up what it took to get him. Teams like the Habs on the other hand are different. They haven't had a #1C in two decades and had an opportunity to get one this year who would be around for at least 3 full playoffs. Their window is likely in these 3 years also.

If the price was Sergachev I could see that. If the price was Sergachev+Galchenyuk no way in hell. I think Sakic just did not want to trade Duchene at all.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

A basic parameter for a deal was put out the Islanders and Penguins filled the parameters but they didn't give us what we needed. The Av's need a top pairing D so we are willing to gamble on a top pairing potential D. The Av's want some younger pieces and picks to make it a better gamble for us.

Name the need piece that Penguins or the Islander offered or could have offered to fit the need.

Exactly right. All 1st round picks are not equal. All "young defensemen" are not equal. All prospects are not equal.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

Friedman's 30 thoughts.



But wait, I thought the concern over 2 years was only a figment of fans' imagination.

funny how you missed the part where it he says no one knows if the price was met, yet everyone is saying it was

Colorado dug in, even more determined to hold strong on its high price for Matt Duchene and Gabriel Landeskog. It’s tough to tell at this time if anyone even came close, but the Avalanche certainly did not budge

 

[Upgrayedd]

Avs need to clear the deck and tank for Dahlin.....catchphrase= Dahlin in 2018!

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

funny how you missed the part where it he says no one knows if the price was met, yet everyone is saying it was

Why is it funny? If you look at my following posts in this thread, you'll see where I am saying/implying the price was NOT likely met. I'm in agreement with that.

But that's neither here nor there. My point had NOTHING to do with the price being met or not met. The point was simply that what Canes fans have been saying all along (the concern about 2 years left), in which multiple Avs fans called it ridiculous, non-issue, and something only fans worry about has now been indeed stated as an issue by a respected media person. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[strictlyrandy]

And thus the long, excruciating march to a land called Mediocrity continued. Funny how a good portion of Avs fans here bashed the Hall-Larsson trade.

Most of the league bashes that trade.

Trading Duchene for a Larsson wouldn't have been what the Avs need.

That was a bad trade then and it's a bad trade now imo. Don't act like Larsson "fixed" the Oilers. McDavid did.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The other difference is that EDM was 5+ years into a rebuild. They had more of a need to strike a deal like the one they did, and, as you said, they just drafted McDavid.

Colorado is at the start of this and given that Duchene and Landeskog are under contract for longer, they have time to wait. My guess is something will happen this summer.

 

[Pacman33]

It was reported islanders didnt want to include barzal or hamonic. Obviously avs werent going to accept a trade with them. Also maata isnt a top pairing guy and has had way too hard a time staying healthy. Cant expect avs to take a deal with pens or isles