Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI, OTT inquired - Part IV

[Makar Goes Fast]

Why is it funny? If you look at my following posts in this thread, you'll see where I am saying/implying the price was NOT likely met. I'm in agreement with that.

But that's neither here nor there. My point had NOTHING to do with the price being met or not met. The point was simply that what Canes fans have been saying all along (the concern about 2 years left), in which multiple Avs fans called it ridiculous, non-issue, and something only fans worry about has now been indeed stated as an issue by a respected media person. Nothing more, nothing less.

fair but my point is, literally everyone is clueless (not just avs fans) and has no idea what is going on behind closed doors, because frankly even the best insiders dont know the meat of the conversations.

however i took this stance with ror, and ill take it here with carolina, if they feel they only get duchene for only 2 years, that is their problem, colorado will not be lowering their asking price for their concerns of resigning him. Duchene isn't a rental until the deadline, Duchene is a VERY RARE talent that just doesn't go UFA and until that final deadline of his deal, i would not lower his asking price a substantial amount because someone will get desperate.

now of course all of that is my opinion but if i was gm, that is my stance, and of course if you were gm of carolina, i would understand why you wouldn't like that plan and would be reluctant to give the pieces.

 

[ThunderBird]

Exactly right. All 1st round picks are not equal. All "young defensemen" are not equal. All prospects are not equal.

My tin foil hat conspiracy theory thinks that the Canes and Avs have a deal for Duchene agreed upon in principle but one side or the other is wanting to pull the trigger after ED. Rumors were out about 3-4 days before TDL that Sakic wasn't going to move Duchy until after the ED unless he was blown away by a deal. There were rumors that Montreal kept calling and Sakic wouldn't pick up the phone.

That is basically all I have and have been reading between the lines, but it is fun to speculate.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

My tin foil hat conspiracy theory thinks that the Canes and Avs have a deal for Duchene agreed upon in principle but one side or the other is wanting to pull the trigger after ED. Rumors were out about 3-4 days before TDL that Sakic wasn't going to move Duchy until after the ED unless he was blown away by a deal. There were rumors that Montreal kept calling and Sakic wouldn't pick up the phone.

That is basically all I have and have been reading between the lines, but it is fun to speculate.

please substantiate this..... PLEASE......

 

[GoldiFox]

My tin foil hat conspiracy theory thinks that the Canes and Avs have a deal for Duchene agreed upon in principle but one side or the other is wanting to pull the trigger after ED. Rumors were out about 3-4 days before TDL that Sakic wasn't going to move Duchy until after the ED unless he was blown away by a deal. There were rumors that Montreal kept calling and Sakic wouldn't pick up the phone.

That is basically all I have and have been reading between the lines, but it is fun to speculate.

Lebrun and local media have already stated that the Canes aren't interested in moving a guy like Hanifin or Faulk for only 2 years of Duchene. Simply not worth it.

The only reason these murmurs still exist is because Colorado fans desperately want one of the Canes young defenseman. It isn't happening.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

fair but my point is, literally everyone is clueless (not just avs fans) and has no idea what is going on behind closed doors, because frankly even the best insiders dont know the meat of the conversations.

Yep, fair enough. Which is why when certain fans called it silly, ridiculous and something "only fans worry about", I disagreed. They don't know any more than anyone else, so to call it ridiculous, etc..is over the top. While I agree that even insiders don't know the meat of the conversations, it does lend some credence to the idea that it is at least a consideration to be taken into account and definitely not just something fans worry about, which is all we were saying to begin with.

however i took this stance with ror, and ill take it here with carolina, if they feel they only get duchene for only 2 years, that is their problem, colorado will not be lowering their asking price for their concerns of resigning him.

Agree. It doesn't affect what the Avs would get for Duchene, and I've never argued differently. There are 28 other teams and I was only looking at it from my team's standpoint, and his contract very well could affect what Carolina would offer. It may then mean the Canes won't get Duchene because the don't offer enough and Sakic will look to other teams.

And none of this is fixed. In the off-season, Francis may look at it differently and change his tune, particularly with the expansion draft and other moves coming. Wouldn't surprise me at all. The point is still valid though, that his contract status IS a concern to Carolina and will be a consideration for them. It's not something that is just a figment of Fan's imagination.

EDIT: Personally, I'd love to have Duchene on Carolina and would love for him to be here for years. Would fit the Canes very well IMO and I'm sure Francis will be interested going forward.

 

[ThunderBird]

please substantiate this..... PLEASE......

It was posted in one of the threads on the Avs boards but I don't remember where it came from and I am not ready through 2000 posts to try and find it. I put rumor which means it absolutely might not be true, it could be exaggerating, but who knows.

 

[Captain Mountain]

It was posted in one of the threads on the Avs boards but I don't remember where it came from and I am not ready through 2000 posts to try and find it. I put rumor which means it absolutely might not be true, it could be exaggerating, but who knows.

LeBrun, Freidman et. al. already made it clear that Carolina isn't interested in Duchene without an extension in place. And they can't negotiate it for 16 months.

 

[Jaynki]

It was posted in one of the threads on the Avs boards but I don't remember where it came from and I am not ready through 2000 posts to try and find it. I put rumor which means it absolutely might not be true, it could be exaggerating, but who knows.

They traded Martinsen for Andrighetto on TDL day.

Unless they did it via phonograph, i am pretty sure that COL answer MTL is phoning

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

It was posted in one of the threads on the Avs boards but I don't remember where it came from and I am not ready through 2000 posts to try and find it. I put rumor which means it absolutely might not be true, it could be exaggerating, but who knows.

its complete bs because, unless i dreamt it, colorado and montreal made a trade.

anddddd even if it was true (IT ISNT), if anyone in the news were to report that, they would be blacklisted immediately

 

[Cherpak]

That's semantics though. Sakic threw out a category of what he needs, but there's wide variation within that. For example, which high potential, young defenseman (a NEED) could Pittsburgh even offer?

Semantics? Seriously?

Need: Something you REQUIRE

Want: Something you DESIRE


Sakic's NEEDS were met according to sources. His WANTS apparently were not.

Just as well. If the reported WANT from the Pens was really Guentzel+Sprong+Jarry+ Maatta then I'm glad JR walked away.

 

[CanadienShark]

Galchenyuk, Sergachev, 1st

Duchene, Grigorenko

Sergachev + 1st is an awful lot for Grigorenko.

 

[Makar Goes Fast]

Semantics? Seriously?

Need: Something you REQUIRE

Want: Something you DESIRE


Sakic's NEEDS were met according to sources. His WANTS apparently were not.

Just as well. If the reported WANT from the Pens was really Guentzel+Sprong+Jarry+ Maatta then I'm glad JR walked away.

not according to friedman, who is actually one of the best.

30 thoughts:

Colorado dug in, even more determined to hold strong on its high price for Matt Duchene and Gabriel Landeskog. It’s tough to tell at this time if anyone even came close, but the Avalanche certainly did not budge

 

[Captain97]

please substantiate this..... PLEASE......

Eklund made the claim a week before the deadline. I'm not gonna link it cause:

a) Im lazy
b) it was eklund do we need to talk about it more

 

[falconski]

Semantics? Seriously?

Need: Something you REQUIRE

Want: Something you DESIRE


Sakic's NEEDS were met according to sources. His WANTS apparently were not.

Just as well. If the reported WANT from the Pens was really Guentzel+Sprong+Jarry+ Maatta then I'm glad JR walked away.

Friedman and McKenzie both say sakics asking price wasn't met, so I'm going to say, no his needs weren't met

 

[IranCondraAffair]

Friedman and McKenzie both say sakics asking price wasn't met, so I'm going to say, no his needs weren't met

I think a few people are missing the "crux" of the argument being put forth by Cherpak. Then again, it is only a slight variation of the same argument that has been going on for months now to no foreseeable end.

To compete for the playoffs, the Avs probably need a top pairing defense man and a couple of quality top-6 forwards. Will they get all that for Duchene? Of course not. What I think Cherpak was trying to say was that the Avs have too many needs to ever be met with Duchene alone. So meeting their "needs" were never going to be achievable.In other words, Cherpak seems to believe the Avs were unrealistic with what holes could be addressed in a Duchene trade and should have settled for getting the best available return for him.

On the flip side, Avs fans keep arguing the same thing over and over as well, that trading Duchene for a "value" that doesn't fill any holes is pointless since no "needs" are met. Getting 6 first rounders won't necessarily help the Avs win, so why bother?

 

[webersshot]

Friedman and McKenzie both say sakics asking price wasn't met, so I'm going to say, no his needs weren't met

No...because his asking price was ridiculous and other GM's were smart enough to realize in the cap era they better off keeping their young assets like Chabot, Sergachev, Hannifin + etc

 

[LaF16]

This is a Kovalchuk junior thread now

 

[AllAboutAvs]

here are my comments I posted on the Avs' board. Just my two cents.

I don't want to defend Sakic as a GM because like all people here I think he had a horrible day at the TDL. However when it comes to the Duchene trade he absolutely did the right thing by not trading him. If he didn't like the offers, demands met or not, then you wait. Could he have been more accurate on his demands? Most likely yes. He could have probably be better off identifying specific players instead of level of players. I'm sure he did directly to the GMs he was talking to. If he did moved the goalposts I can see why the other GMs would be upset. However market change sometimes forces you to move those goalposts. For example he might have started given indications that he was going to cave and then the return on the Hanzal trade might have changed his mind and "reset" his goalposts to the original place. Again if it is true he did move them. Don't tell me other very respected GMs haven't done that in the past in these circumstances. I'm sure it happened.

Now with regard to the accusations that other teams (NYI and PIT for example) did meet the Avs' demands and the trade was not accepted...well since when does a GM has to accept such an offer. The seller GM is still in control as a trade is not finalized until it is. There are many reasons why a GM could still refuse a trade that meets his demands. Here are a few:

1. Very good value but bad due to ED. The value could meet everything and be very very good and even great but if it leaves the Avs with a big risk of losing one of these pieces to ED then it makes the return a lot less desirable. Same can be said if they lose another important players for their existing roster due to that particular trade. Yes they can turn around and address this issue later prior to the ED but why accept a trade that forces you to make another trade. What if you cannot unload that player and lose him in the ED? The end result is again the same: a reduced and less desirable return.

2. Most pieces coming back meet the parameters of the demands but they are in the bottom portion of the spectrum. Why should a GM accept that offer when other teams could most likely beat that? Remember here that it was very clear from the Avs that the main piece had to be either an already established top-pair NHL dman (the other pieces could then be less value) or a non-established dman but with top-pair potential (other pieces would need to be more value). This was a MUST. If that main piece just barely meet that parameter the Avs might prefer to refuse even though the other team includes a very very high-end FWD as another piece. For example (and this is just an example as we don't know what the offer were): NYI take Hamonic off the table and offer Pulock and to compensate Barzal is offered as another piece. To the Avs' point of view it doesn't matter how good the Bazal piece is, the main piece's potential might be too low or too risky to achive for them.

3. Perceived value. To stay with the NYI example...NYI value Pulock to have top-pair potential but the Avs only sees him having second-pair potential. It doesn't matter who is right. It only matters how the Avs sees him. No GM will accept a trade based on how the other GM value his player. It doesn't matter if the buyer thinks he is meeting the demands because the seller thinks he does not. It is his prerogative to refuse. A GM can scream bloody murder all he wants, there still won't be a trade. In this case Snow would do the same thing the other way around.

4. Injuries. If a team meets the parameters with a player that is often injured, it might affect the seller's decision. This is especially true if it is the main piece of the deal. For example PIT offering Maatta whom has had a lot of health issue. Again they shouldn't be forced to accept a trade because that team meets the demands.

5. Not a good fit. The offer could be great value-wise but not a good fit. For example ANA offers Vatanen but the Avs already have Barrie.It doesn't matter ANA GM thinks that Vatanen is better. It only matters how Sakic sees the return and if he thinks it is not a good fit then there won't be a trade unless ANA changes the offer to still meet the parameters of the trade with players that fit the Avs better.

Etc.....

None of us were part of these negotiations so we don't know if Sakic backed out of a deal or he moved the goalposts or if a team really met their demands. This could be all posturing by other GMs. To me, and this is only my opinion, it would make sense that it was posturing by the other GMs as bothBob MacKenzie and Friedman said the demand s were not met.

Sakic never went public saying something like "Here are my demands and the first team that meets them will have a deal". You take all offers, reject the ones that don't meet the parameters and take as long as you want to decide which one of the remainders you will accept keeping in mind that the longer you wait closer to the deadline other teams might turn to other solutions and drop their offer.

Sakic is accused by Avs' fans of being way too passive. This certainly appears to be true but one thing is sure: he cannot screw up a Duchene/Landy trade so he is unlikely to change the trade parameters.

 

[Byrddog]

Sakic did not get the offer he wanted period. Why should he sell Duchene short when the guy can be a 1C on many teams and a top 2C on the rest. People contend that 1 and 2 C's are just laying around and can be had for scraps and on the other side top pairing D guys are just flooded in the league both of these are falsehood. In fact the league is really too large at this point and mediocre players are elevated to star status. And the league is adding another team to further dilute the talent. Don't get me wrong there is some of the best talent in the league to ever play the game but it is spread out so thin other than two or three teams per season the remainder are equal.

So Sakic is perfectly right to not trade until he gets the player or package he wants.

 

[Boud]

Sakic did not get the offer he wanted period. Why should he sell Duchene short when the guy can be a 1C on many teams and a top 2C on the rest. People contend that 1 and 2 C's are just laying around and can be had for scraps and on the other side top pairing D guys are just flooded in the league both of these are falsehood. In fact the league is really too large at this point and mediocre players are elevated to star status. And the league is adding another team to further dilute the talent. Don't get me wrong there is some of the best talent in the league to ever play the game but it is spread out so thin other than two or three teams per season the remainder are equal.

So Sakic is perfectly right to not trade until he gets the player or package he wants.

The problem is not that Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

It's that what Sakic wants is beyond the value of Duchene by a country mile.

So yes, it's perfectly fine to wait, but Duchene's value is the same. No team will suddenly give up significantly more than what Duchene is worth just because Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

 

[Goulet17]

The problem is not that Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

It's that what Sakic wants is beyond the value of Duchene by a country mile.

So yes, it's perfectly fine to wait, but Duchene's value is the same. No team will suddenly give up significantly more than what Duchene is worth just because Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

The last time I checked, Colorado has a contract with Duchene for another couple of years after this season. Sakic has every right to ask whatever he wants for his organization's asset.

If I want to sell my house and I place it on the market at a particular price, it is my right to do so, as it is my asset. If I price it too high, I won't receive offers close to my asking price and I would have to decide whether or not to lower my asking price. But it would be bizarre and frankly unjustifiable for someone to be angry or indignant that I am asking too much for my asset.

It is analogous to this situation in my opinion. If the market won't support Sakic's asking price, he will lower his demand if he has the motivation to do so.

This indignation over Sakic asking too much is a bit rich, particularly considering that it is largely coming from the fan bases of teams reportedly in the market for Duchene.

Perhaps Sakic is asking too much for Duchene, but based on historical precedent, it is likely that teams trading for Duchene, and/or Landeskog for that matter, will have to give up some piece that they do not want to give up.

I think the issue on these boards is that Avs fans are probably aiming too high in their expectations while fans of other teams are too low. Avs fans are expecting a windfall while fans of other teams want to give up what they deem as expendable assets that won't hurt.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Semantics? Seriously?

Need: Something you REQUIRE

Want: Something you DESIRE


Sakic's NEEDS were met according to sources. His WANTS apparently were not.

LOL...Yes, semantics, "seriously". It's really not that complicated. Sakic put out a broad category for his asking price. Calling it needs or wants, or asking price, or whatever is just semantics. Simply put, it was his asking price at this point in time, and only he can determine if the value offered was sufficient. Thus..SEMANTICS. That doesn't mean every offer meets that, nor does it mean that other teams are going to pay it, but for now, it's what his price is. It may change in the off season, or next year, or some other time. Just because a team marks off a check in one of the boxes, doesn't mean they met what he was asking for.

For instance, a young, high potential defenseman. From my own team, does that mean Jaccob Slavin? Noah Hanifin? Brett Pesce? Justin Faulk? or Haydn Fluery? Because ALL of those guys are/could be considered young, high potential defensemen, but they are not all equal and I would argue, would not all fit Sakic's asking price. If I was in Sakic's shoes, I certainly wouldn't bank on Maatta being that guy. His skating is a concern, as is his health, and frankly, his play has been pretty poor recently as well.

Another example...a 1st round pick. Again, a broad category. Is a Top 10 1st rounder the same value as Pittsburgh's 1st rounder? Of course not. So depending where that pick resides, it may not have fit Sakic's asking price. Sakic put out a broad set of requirements for his asking price. Each offer has to be looked at in totality to see if the value matches what his requirements were. Just because a team offered a young defenseman, a late 1st rounder, and a prospect, it doesn't mean it fit the bill. If the offer you are referring to was Maatta, a late 1st in 2017 and another prospect, then that offer doesn't meet his asking price IMO. Not enough value coming back.

As others have already posted, respectable people in the media have come out and said his needs weren't met so not sure why you are even arguing it.

Now, if you want to argue that his asking price is way too high and he'll never get that, well, that's a different story. You may very well be right on that front and only time will tell, but if I'm Sakic, I'm holding on to Duchene for the best possible offer, which likely isn't occurring at a trade deadline (for a guy with 2+ years left).

 

[Byrddog]

The problem is not that Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

It's that what Sakic wants is beyond the value of Duchene by a country mile.

So yes, it's perfectly fine to wait, but Duchene's value is the same. No team will suddenly give up significantly more than what Duchene is worth just because Sakic is waiting to get what he wants.

How so the last I heard He wanted a top 4 d guy a prospect and a pick. For a 1C that is pretty cheap. Just look at the Jones Johanson trade last year a top pairing defenseman (some say Generational) for Johanson who has numbers that are inferior to Duchene. SO Apples to Apples it is not out of the question what he is asking for Duchene. While Duchene is not top 5 in the league at center its still reasonable. I do not recall seeing Sakic demand Eckblad, Trocheck and a pick he just wants a solid top 4 guy a prospect preferably defense and a pick from a draft that is not the best year.

 

[trentmccleary]

How so the last I heard He wanted a top 4 d guy a prospect and a pick. For a 1C that is pretty cheap. Just look at the Jones Johanson trade last year a top pairing defenseman (some say Generational) for Johanson who has numbers that are inferior to Duchene. SO Apples to Apples it is not out of the question what he is asking for Duchene. While Duchene is not top 5 in the league at center its still reasonable. I do not recall seeing Sakic demand Eckblad, Trocheck and a pick he just wants a solid top 4 guy a prospect preferably defense and a pick from a draft that is not the best year.

Johansen was 23yo and coming off of 70 & 60 point seasons.

At the end of this season:
- Johansen will have four 60+ point seasons by the age of 24yo.
- Duchene will have two 60+ point seasons by the age of 26yo.

 

[nhlfan9191]

They traded Martinsen for Andrighetto on TDL day.

Unless they did it via phonograph, i am pretty sure that COL answer MTL is phoning

That rumour is BS. Sakic wasn't interested in negotiating. He asked for a ridiculous price and wasn't budging. The talks ended over Duchene. Why would Sakic be the one not answering the phone when he had the balls to ask for Galchenyuk, Sergachev, and a 1st?