Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI, OTT inquired - Part IV

[g00n]

go on...

(last here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2193809 )

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[IslandersFan17]

Goin to be insane to see how much worse this gets when Sakic waits until the draft.

 

[CodeE]

I don't know much about Pulock tbf, but from what it sounds like he's very similar to Barrie. And that wouldn't make sense to add another defender that's more offensive minded than defensively minded.

I mean, you can keep qualifying what you want, a defensive defensman over an offensive one, no not Hamonic he's too old for our rebuild, doesn't mean you'll get it.

I'm reminded of asking Oiler fans about Taylor Hall last year. They insisted:

1. He wouldn't be traded
2. If he was to be traded, it would have to be for a Subban/Doughty/Pietrangelo level player
3. Any offer you made less than that would be dismissed because why on earth would they take what we were offering instead of Subban from Montreal?

I understand that you guys are setting the price high for Duchene, absolutely. But you're also making all these assumptions about other offers that can apparently only be beat on our end by some Barzal+Hamonic/Pulock+1st package.

Yet I don't see much twitter chatter connecting Duchene with any of these other teams, or hearing that Ottawa is willing to give up Chabot or Boston is willing to give up McAvoy to bring Duchene to their teams. As lovely as it is to assume that Sakic is juggling all these high-value returns deciding which one he likes best, it's more realistic that a lot of teams have found Duchene's asking price far too high for their liking, and Snow is one of the only GMs trying to acquire Duchene by the deadline.

You're essentially creating leverage for yourself based on nothing more than messageboard assumptions. The only real leverage you have is "we don't have to trade Duchene if we don't get a return we like", not "we don't have to trade Duchene when there are much better offers from other teams".

 

[PredsHabs]

We need him in Nashville

 

[Pacman33]

Were wasting so much time on this. Sakic is not going to pull the trigger till offseason at earliest. Dont know if i agree with it or not but hes just not a very aggressive gm. Nobody knows what actual offers are right now but it sounds like even it his price gets met he still is going to hold off. It wont effect his value much because there will be more teams vying for him at the draft. The expansion draft really does complicate things

 

[JoemAvs]

I mean, you can keep qualifying what you want, a defensive defensman over an offensive one, no not Hamonic he's too old for our rebuild, doesn't mean you'll get it.

I'm reminded of asking Oiler fans about Taylor Hall last year. They insisted:

1. He wouldn't be traded
2. If he was to be traded, it would have to be for a Subban/Doughty/Pietrangelo level player
3. Any offer you made less than that would be dismissed because why on earth would they take what we were offering instead of Subban from Montreal?

I understand that you guys are setting the price high for Duchene, absolutely. But you're also making all these assumptions about other offers that can apparently only be beat on our end by some Barzal+Hamonic/Pulock+1st package.

Yet I don't see much twitter chatter connecting Duchene with any of these other teams, or hearing that Ottawa is willing to give up Chabot or Boston is willing to give up McAvoy to bring Duchene to their teams. As lovely as it is to assume that Sakic is juggling all these high-value returns deciding which one he likes best, it's more realistic that a lot of teams have found Duchene's asking price far too high for their liking, and Snow is one of the only GMs trying to acquire Duchene by the deadline.

You're essentially creating leverage for yourself based on nothing more than messageboard assumptions. The only real leverage you have is "we don't have to trade Duchene if we don't get a return we like", not "we don't have to trade Duchene when there are much better offers from other teams".

Avs have EJ and Barrie on the right side. So if we trade for a RHD he has to be good enough or have atleast enough potential that trading one of those to make room for that player or prospect has to make sense.

Neither Hamonic nor Pulock fit the bill in that regard. We also have a guy like Meloche coming up playing in the AHL next season and a guy from Russia coming
in Mironov who we probably had to promise a spot to come and who also plays RHD.

Avs have Zadorov and maybe Bigras on the left side. Nothing else really.

So yeah. Isles and Avs make terrible trading partners. We will see if Sakic and Snow will make something work regardless but I have a feeling that there won't be a win-win kind of deal available..

Needs and surplusses simply don't line up well between those two teams...

 

[Hunn]

After reading all of this, I'm curious what Avalanche fans would accept as a "realistic fair deal" with the Isles.

I do understand that many would answer "we need nothing from them because they don't have pieces", but imagine – for the sake of discussion – there is a deal. What would you accept?

For example, how would you tweak "Hamonic OR Pulock + Strome OR Nelson + 1st + midround pick" to make it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild?

 

[TheTwelfth]

You're too kind, we'll trade a 1st line center for your perma-injured #4 D.

So swap Maatta for Dumoulin, but Colorado retains.

My post was more in response to the other person that thought Kunitz, Sheary and Pouliot + picks was fair for Duchene.

 

[AvsGuy]

After reading all of this, I'm curious what Avalanche fans would accept as a "realistic fair deal" with the Isles.

I do understand that many would answer "we need nothing from them because they don't have pieces", but imagine – for the sake of discussion – there is a deal. What would you accept?

For example, how would you tweak "Hamonic OR Pulock + Strome OR Nelson + 1st + midround pick" to make it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild?

There's just not a lot from the Islander's roster or prospect list that makes it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild.

For the sake of discussion, we'd expect players in return that your fans claim are untouchable. Not sure what there is to discuss there.

 

[JoemAvs]

After reading all of this, I'm curious what Avalanche fans would accept as a "realistic fair deal" with the Isles.

I do understand that many would answer "we need nothing from them because they don't have pieces", but imagine – for the sake of discussion – there is a deal. What would you accept?

For example, how would you tweak "Hamonic OR Pulock + Strome OR Nelson + 1st + midround pick" to make it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild?

That deal simply would not be acceptable to me.

Hamonic/Pulock + Barzal + 1st is the bare minimum I personally might accept given that those pieces all really don't fill our needs.

And even then I would only do it if this is the best offer on the table by far and if I am sure that I can't get a better deal in the offseason.


Avs really need to adress their defense longterm. Especially on the left side.
And this really does not help that much with it and that is why it would have to be a big overpayment for me to consider it...

 

[Wintersun]

I mean, if Hamonic could play the left side as well as the right side, I'd be all in on Hamonic, Barzal, 1st. But adding a RHD as the main piece doesn't make sense, especially if the secondary pieces are Dal Colle and Nelson. Dal Colle looks like he may or not be a NHL player and Nelson seems like a guy you guys don't even want to protect, so that's not exactly a great package, especially when it doesn't fill a need. Hold onto Duchene for sure if that's the best you can get.

 

[triggrman]

That deal simply would not be acceptable to me.

Hamonic/Pulock + Barzal + 1st is the bare minimum I personally might accept given that those pieces all really don't fill our needs.

And even then I would only do it if this is the best offer on the table by far and if I am sure that I can't get a better deal in the offseason.


Avs really need to adress their defense longterm. Especially on the left side.
And this really does not help that much with it and that is why it would have to be a big overpayment for me to consider it...

Well, that would definitely be a "big overpayment"

 

[CodeE]

Brian Lawton on Duchene



60% chance he gets moved before the deadline, lot of Isles/Avs chatter on Duchene.

But hey let's keep overriding verified NHL insiders with statements like "There's just not a lot from the Islander's roster or prospect list that makes it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild".

As long as we say we can do much better, everyone else will have to start giving us better offers. That's the way it works.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I mean, you can keep qualifying what you want, a defensive defensman over an offensive one, no not Hamonic he's too old for our rebuild, doesn't mean you'll get it.

I'm reminded of asking Oiler fans about Taylor Hall last year. They insisted:

1. He wouldn't be traded
2. If he was to be traded, it would have to be for a Subban/Doughty/Pietrangelo level player
3. Any offer you made less than that would be dismissed because why on earth would they take what we were offering instead of Subban from Montreal?

I understand that you guys are setting the price high for Duchene, absolutely. But you're also making all these assumptions about other offers that can apparently only be beat on our end by some Barzal+Hamonic/Pulock+1st package.

Yet I don't see much twitter chatter connecting Duchene with any of these other teams, or hearing that Ottawa is willing to give up Chabot or Boston is willing to give up McAvoy to bring Duchene to their teams. As lovely as it is to assume that Sakic is juggling all these high-value returns deciding which one he likes best, it's more realistic that a lot of teams have found Duchene's asking price far too high for their liking, and Snow is one of the only GMs trying to acquire Duchene by the deadline.

You're essentially creating leverage for yourself based on nothing more than messageboard assumptions. The only real leverage you have is "we don't have to trade Duchene if we don't get a return we like", not "we don't have to trade Duchene when there are much better offers from other teams".

I mean you can qualify what you think we need, but Pulock and Hamonic are not at the top of that list. If you are right and none of the prospects that we want are available for Duchene than I don't see the point of making a trade with the Islanders for pieces that we don't really need. I mean it just doesn't make sense to give up someone like Duchene for pieces that are not going to fill a big gap. And yes I know we suck ass right now and have a lot of holes to fix, but LD needs to be the position that is taken care of immediately.

 

[Wintersun]

Brian Lawton on Duchene



60% chance he gets moved before the deadline, lot of Isles/Avs chatter on Duchene.

But hey let's keep overriding verified NHL insiders with statements like "There's just not a lot from the Islander's roster or prospect list that makes it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild".

As long as we say we can do much better, everyone else will have to start giving us better offers. That's the way it works.

We're not saying the pieces from the Islanders aren't good, but we are looking to improve our defense, and our RD side is already filled and Islanders only have RHD to offer. It just doesn't fit.

 

[Ivan13]

So swap Maatta for Dumoulin, but Colorado retains.

My post was more in response to the other person that thought Kunitz, Sheary and Pouliot + picks was fair for Duchene.

How about we don't trade Duchene for spare parts?

 

[Ice Crusher]

Brian Lawton on Duchene



60% chance he gets moved before the deadline, lot of Isles/Avs chatter on Duchene.

But hey let's keep overriding verified NHL insiders with statements like "There's just not a lot from the Islander's roster or prospect list that makes it acceptable from the viewpoint of the Avalanche rebuild".

As long as we say we can do much better, everyone else will have to start giving us better offers. That's the way it works.

What makes you think that Barzal ain't in that deal...?

 

[Wintersun]

Sakic could be as much as a moron as Chia, who the **** knows.

A LHD Larsson would be interesting. That's not what the Islanders want to give us though.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Sakic could be as much as a moron as Chia, who the **** knows.

Hey if we could get a top pairing shutdown dman that's 24 I'd be stoked as ****.

 

[TheTwelfth]

How about we don't trade Duchene for spare parts?

Don't know in what world #2D (Dumoulin) and young mid-6F (Guentzel) are spare parts. Also said Tristan Jarry (top goalie prospect) could be in the discussion.

Penguins are fine without the trade. I think Colorado fans overestimate the current market realities if they think they will get anything more than the above offer.

 

[JoemAvs]

A LHD Larsson would be interesting. That's not what the Islanders want to give us though.

Yeah at this point I gladly take a left-handed Larsson (maybe a tad younger) over all of these offers...

 

[AvsGuy]

Brian Lawton on Duchene

He just admitted he's posting while very high

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yeah at this point I gladly take a left-handed Larsson (maybe a tad younger) over all of these offers...

I would, him and Barrie would work great together. Than put EJ and Zads together and that's the best top 4 we've had in a decade.

 

[Pure Slaughter Value]

He just admitted he's posting while very high

That's how I read it as well lol.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

We're not saying the pieces from the Islanders aren't good, but we are looking to improve our defense, and our RD side is already filled and Islanders only have RHD to offer. It just doesn't fit.

I don't understand this narrative. Weren't there two rumoured deals with RDs in them already; one being COL talking to Boston regarding Landeskog with Carlo coming back and the other being COL and OTT talking about something around a package that had Ceci in it?

I don't think COL will have any issues with taking a huge package that has a player in a position they don't need. Maybe I am out to lunch, but they seem to be trying to get the BPA type package in order to help rebuild their team through these two (and maybe three if they eventually move Barrie) trades a few years down the line.

COL isn't a team who is one piece away from getting over that hump so I don't think there is urgency for them to get specific positions in return for Duchene. Maybe if someone has a great LD prospect like Sergachev or Chabot on the table that takes priority, but I hardly think they are in a position where they will turn down a high value package that allows them to walk away with more than the started with just because it doesn't get them their coveted LD right away. They can try to get 3-5 really good pieces for Duchene and then use that added value to try and find the other pieces they need as their young guns progress.