Dreger: Matt Duchene Mega-thread:Habs, NSH, NYI, OTT inquired - Part IV

EdAVSfan

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 28, 2009
7,431
4,472
I mean, in the end, the media announcing that asking prices were met has worked beautifully for the fans of those franchises. Neither of the isles or pens fans are that upset for not trading for duchene, and everything seems to be sakic's fault.

It's interesting. 2 weeks ago, the asking prices were totally ridiculous.
Now all of sudden, the islanders had 2 variations of the ridiculous asking price, the pens met the ridiculous asking price, and the habs met the ridiculous asking price.

Well, except apparently, Barzal, hamonic, sergachev, sprong, guentzel seem to all be off the table.
 

falconski

Unregistered User
Jan 21, 2008
11,973
2,041
I mean, in the end, the media announcing that asking prices were met has worked beautifully for the fans of those franchises. Neither of the isles or pens fans are that upset for not trading for duchene, and everything seems to be sakic's fault.

It's interesting. 2 weeks ago, the asking prices were totally ridiculous.
Now all of sudden, the islanders had 2 variations of the ridiculous asking price, the pens met the ridiculous asking price, and the habs met the ridiculous asking price.

Well, except apparently, Barzal, hamonic, sergachev, sprong, guentzel seem to all be off the table.
There's a reason that sakic subtlety called out the GMs trying to manipulate the media with leaks yesterday
 

linusandvarlamov

GO AVS GO !
Apr 2, 2014
1,477
72
Paris, France
Jost - MacKinnon - Rantanen
Landeskog - '17 1st - '18 1st
Greer - Compher - Morrison
Nieto - Beaudin - Andrighetto
Nantel - Henley - Barron

DutchyTrade - EJ
Zadorov - Barrie
Bigras - Meloche
Boikov - Mironov
(Clurman)

Varlamov
Martin
Pickard

As a homer, I'm pretty impressed by how that line-up looks !! :handclap: It would most certainly give us a better chance at making a regular playoff appearance !

However if we don't manage to win the #1 pick in either 2017 or 2018, I think that could decelerate the re-build quite a bit.

Imagine having to draft #4 this year and having to take Mittelstadt and then the following year having one of those "Magic" (don't know where it came from years) that screw us for the 2018 draft :laugh::laugh:.
 

Syckle78

Registered User
Nov 5, 2011
14,585
7,824
Redford, MI
Yeesh if sakic would of taken that pens trade he should be drawn and quartered. Maatta a late ass first and jarry for Duchene? Lolol that's horrrrrible! How dare he turn that down?
 

CodeE

step on snek
Dec 20, 2007
9,938
4,996
Los Angeles, CA
You guys view the issue in shades of black and white instead of grey. "Sakic had a firm asking price and nothing you offered was ever good enough" - then why spend so much time negotiating with multiple teams? Why were there so many twitter rumors? Twitter rumors about Snow meeting Sakic's asking price, not the asking price of Avs fans on a messageboard, but the general manager of the Colorado Avalanche's asking price.

You can default back to crapping on guys like Maatta and DeHaan for being "pretend" pieces of value, but then answer me this one question: why didn't Sakic simply move on? Why would he spend the hours leading up to the deadline entertaining offers for Duchene instead of trying to move Tyutin to a contender? If the price is as firm and unchangeable as you all claim it to be, what good does it do for Sakic to negotiate at all?

In fantasy hockey, if someone offers me Mikko Koivu & Cam Ward for Alex Ovechkin, I tell them they're not close. If they then counter with Ryan Nugent-Hopkins & Cam Ward for Alex Ovechkin, I metaphorically "hang up the phone" on them. It's only when they give a halfway respectable offer do I start to negotiate - not mashing accept trade, but seeing if the two sides can come to an agreement.

If what you're claiming is true - Sakic truly had zero interest whatsoever in the packages that Montreal, Pittsburgh, the Isles, and whoever else were offering up - then honestly that leaves us with one of two options, neither of which are good for Colorado:

1. Teams met Sakic's asking price, but Sakic either increased the offer at the last minute or refused to make the deal.

2. Teams didn't come close to meeting Sakic's asking price, yet Sakic still dangled them along right up until the last minute with no intentions of ever actually moving Duchene.

Which is it?
 

bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
36,346
22,389
Visit site
This is misleading to the point of being flat-out misinformation.

Pulock is only in the AHL because the Islanders have one of the deepest defenses in the league:

Leddy
Boychuk
Hamonic
de Haan
Seidenberg
Hickey
Pelech
Mayfield
Pulock

He's NHL ready now with 10-17-27 and +8 in 33 AHL games. He's had success in his previous call-ups to the NHL with the Islanders and just because he isn't full time in the NHL at 22 doesn't mean he can't be a top 4 guy in the future, because that's likely what he can become with his skillset.

Deep maybe, with a bunch of 5,6,7's etc but Ceci is playing 25 minutes a game on a playoff team right now. He probably sits in the 4 spot on that roster no worse than 5 thats for sure.
 

Avs44

Registered User
May 16, 2011
21,740
10,350
Yeesh if sakic would of taken that pens trade he should be drawn and quartered. Maatta a late ass first and jarry for Duchene? Lolol that's horrrrrible! How dare he turn that down?

It appears the entire Pens board has their pitchforks out because their anonymous internet message board poster who knows all told them that was what was offered, the Pens had the best offer on the table, and Sakic weaselled out.
 

Syckle78

Registered User
Nov 5, 2011
14,585
7,824
Redford, MI
It appears the entire Pens board has their pitchforks out because their anonymous internet message board poster who knows all told them that was what was offered, the Pens had the best offer on the table, and Sakic weaselled out.

Half the pens board doesn't even want maatta in the starting line up for the playoffs but they expect two out of three major pieces for Duchene to be him and a late first. Gotta love it...
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,611
19,415
w/ Renly's Peach
As a homer, I'm pretty impressed by how that line-up looks !! :handclap: It would most certainly give us a better chance at making a regular playoff appearance !

However if we don't manage to win the #1 pick in either 2017 or 2018, I think that could decelerate the re-build quite a bit.

Imagine having to draft #4 this year and having to take Mittelstadt and then the following year having one of those "Magic" (don't know where it came from years) that screw us for the 2018 draft :laugh::laugh:.

Mittelstadt is a huge talent who could well end up the best to get taken in this draft; I'd only complain if we end up with Tippett.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,611
19,415
w/ Renly's Peach
I like how teams are b****ing about having offered up what was asked even though they didn't even have the piece needed to make a Duchene trade possible.
 

falconski

Unregistered User
Jan 21, 2008
11,973
2,041
I like how teams are b****ing about having offered up what was asked even though they didn't even have the piece needed to make a Duchene trade possible.

Considering McKenzie said nobody met the asking price, I'm going to go with 'trying to assuage their own fanbase for not getting him'
 

EdAVSfan

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 28, 2009
7,431
4,472
You guys view the issue in shades of black and white instead of grey. "Sakic had a firm asking price and nothing you offered was ever good enough" - then why spend so much time negotiating with multiple teams? Why were there so many twitter rumors? Twitter rumors about Snow meeting Sakic's asking price, not the asking price of Avs fans on a messageboard, but the general manager of the Colorado Avalanche's asking price.

You can default back to crapping on guys like Maatta and DeHaan for being "pretend" pieces of value, but then answer me this one question: why didn't Sakic simply move on? Why would he spend the hours leading up to the deadline entertaining offers for Duchene instead of trying to move Tyutin to a contender? If the price is as firm and unchangeable as you all claim it to be, what good does it do for Sakic to negotiate at all?

In fantasy hockey, if someone offers me Mikko Koivu & Cam Ward for Alex Ovechkin, I tell them they're not close. If they then counter with Ryan Nugent-Hopkins & Cam Ward for Alex Ovechkin, I metaphorically "hang up the phone" on them. It's only when they give a halfway respectable offer do I start to negotiate - not mashing accept trade, but seeing if the two sides can come to an agreement.

If what you're claiming is true - Sakic truly had zero interest whatsoever in the packages that Montreal, Pittsburgh, the Isles, and whoever else were offering up - then honestly that leaves us with one of two options, neither of which are good for Colorado:

1. Teams met Sakic's asking price, but Sakic either increased the offer at the last minute or refused to make the deal.

2. Teams didn't come close to meeting Sakic's asking price, yet Sakic still dangled them along right up until the last minute with no intentions of ever actually moving Duchene.

Which is it?

Yes, and then there's the, to use your own words, shades of grey between 1 and 2.

Perhaps teams were somewhat close to his asking price but wouldn't take the extra step that Sakic wanted. There's a whole slew of different scenarios that don't need it to be 1 or 2 among your options. It doesn't seem right that those are the only 2 possibilities.

If Sakic never said yes to any of those GMs, then they're just as much at fault for trying to hang onto the deal til the last minute.

If Mckenzie says no one met the asking price, I tend to believe him.

Either way, I go back to my original statement.

IMO, there's no way the GMs, 2 weeks ago, were complaining that Sakic's asking price was ridiculous...and now at the deadline, all of sudden several teams met the ridiculous asking price.

It just all sounds like posturing to me and trying to appease their fans that it's not their fault.

I'd bet money that Snow and JR will be right back in the mix with trying to get him in the off-season.
 

lindroshomer

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
372
0
Ontario
Let's just get this out in the open here...Joe Sakic may be a great hockey player, and a better person. His team is dead last in the NHL and he's the GM...SO he's not a good GM, it's that simple. 0 playoff appearances since he's officially been GM. He is living off his accomplishments as a player and person in Colorado.

So people giving Joe Sakic some benefit of the doubt that the twitter rumors are in no way possible, that they aren't valid speculation, are just being ridiculous. Joe Sakic is as good of a GM as the guy who's team is dead last all season can be good. This would then seep into things like trade discussions/decisions and how he generally goes about his business...that of the worst performing team in the league. ******...

It's not that far fetched to speculate that Sakic **** the bed and was acting a fool, key word is speculate. As far as Joe Sakic being a good guy goes, I am sure loads of people in the media are doing him a solid if the time comes. To me, it's cut and dry, Sakic all season was trying to move Duchene and Landeskog...and didn't, if nobody was going to meet his asking price, it would have been a non issue. It would have been "they're on the market, but nobody will make a move because Sakic has too high of an asking price"...back in December. Not the day after the trade deadline.

tl;dr Nice job Joe Sakic, your team is dead last in the NHL and you've got the same group next season. Same group of losers and their crappy mentality. Bring those top end prospects into that "winning" culture.
 

Ncit3

Registered User
Oct 19, 2011
3,362
3,790
Colorado
Let's just get this out in the open here...Joe Sakic may be a great hockey player, and a better person. His team is dead last in the NHL and he's the GM...SO he's not a good GM, it's that simple. 0 playoff appearances since he's officially been GM. He is living off his accomplishments as a player and person in Colorado.

So people giving Joe Sakic some benefit of the doubt that the twitter rumors are in no way possible, that they aren't valid speculation, are just being ridiculous. Joe Sakic is as good of a GM as the guy who's team is dead last all season can be good. This would then seep into things like trade discussions/decisions and how he generally goes about his business...that of the worst performing team in the league. ******...

It's not that far fetched to speculate that Sakic **** the bed and was acting a fool, key word is speculate. As far as Joe Sakic being a good guy goes, I am sure loads of people in the media are doing him a solid if the time comes. To me, it's cut and dry, Sakic all season was trying to move Duchene and Landeskog...and didn't, if nobody was going to meet his asking price, it would have been a non issue. It would have been "they're on the market, but nobody will make a move because Sakic has too high of an asking price"...back in December. Not the day after the trade deadline.

tl;dr Nice job Joe Sakic, your team is dead last in the NHL and you've got the same group next season. Same group of losers and their crappy mentality. Bring those top end prospects into that "winning" culture.

I'm not a fan of Sakic as a GM. But to be fair, this mess has been a long time coming. We've had terrible asset management for years. We've had bad drafts for nearly 15 years. Our depth has always had a problem. The reason we're in this mess is not just because of Joe Sakic. Our team has been a dumpster fire for over a decade.
 

jdpitt05

Registered User
Jan 10, 2009
2,060
8
Pittsburgh
Any concern how Duchene and Landeskog take this? AVs clearly in a rebuild mode and they are young enough to realistically stick around through it. However they are being shopped. Doesn't that send the message that the front office doesn't believe in them? Just wondering if it will create some bad blood between them and the FO.

That said maybe they deserve being put on the trading block with the season they are going through. And maybe they get dealt in the offseason and it won't matter.
 

Ncit3

Registered User
Oct 19, 2011
3,362
3,790
Colorado
Any concern how Duchene and Landeskog take this? AVs clearly in a rebuild mode and they are young enough to realistically stick around through it. However they are being shopped. Doesn't that send the message that the front office doesn't believe in them? Just wondering if it will create some bad blood between them and the FO.

That said maybe they deserve being put on the trading block with the season they are going through. And maybe they get dealt in the offseason and it won't matter.

We believe in them. I'm sure the front office does too. We just have a lot of holes. They know that.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,611
19,415
w/ Renly's Peach
Let's just get this out in the open here...Joe Sakic may be a great hockey player, and a better person. His team is dead last in the NHL and he's the GM...SO he's not a good GM, it's that simple. 0 playoff appearances since he's officially been GM. He is living off his accomplishments as a player and person in Colorado.

So people giving Joe Sakic some benefit of the doubt that the twitter rumors are in no way possible, that they aren't valid speculation, are just being ridiculous. Joe Sakic is as good of a GM as the guy who's team is dead last all season can be good. This would then seep into things like trade discussions/decisions and how he generally goes about his business...that of the worst performing team in the league. ******...

It's not that far fetched to speculate that Sakic **** the bed and was acting a fool, key word is speculate. As far as Joe Sakic being a good guy goes, I am sure loads of people in the media are doing him a solid if the time comes. To me, it's cut and dry, Sakic all season was trying to move Duchene and Landeskog...and didn't, if nobody was going to meet his asking price, it would have been a non issue. It would have been "they're on the market, but nobody will make a move because Sakic has too high of an asking price"...back in December. Not the day after the trade deadline.

tl;dr Nice job Joe Sakic, your team is dead last in the NHL and you've got the same group next season. Same group of losers and their crappy mentality. Bring those top end prospects into that "winning" culture.

Sakic deserves some benefit of the doubt solely because of how he did the only previous time he had to trade a core piece; as he got his asking price for ROR who was a year closer to UFA, had a much more difficult negotiation history, who was much more certain to leave Colorado in UFA, and who simply wasn't as good as Dutchy is. As Zadorov is that potential top pairing dman we need, Compher is coming along beautifully as a young middle 6er, and that pick was turned into AJ Greer & Cam Morrison; two very intriguing PWF prospects with top 6 potential. If he gets a similar package...only with a safer or higher ceiling'd defensive piece...we'lol all be thrilled.

Joe may have a crap record in UFA, he may be too gunshy to wheel n deal like a stud, and he's yet to kill it during a TDL; but so far he's earned a little faith that he won't pull the trigger on a core player trade without getting the pieces he needs...and maybe not even then given the trades he passed on last summer...and neither the Isles nor Pens have the piece he needs to make a duchene trade; while MTL, BOS & OTT don't appear to have put that piece on the table, and the Canes collapse knocked them out of the race in-season.

Also this narrative that Joe has been trying heavily to move these guys all year is a little off. He's been taking calls on Duchene and Landy going back to at least early last season; but he's in no rush to move them and has little reason not to wait until after the expansion draft if nobody was willing to knock his socks off.

Ultimately this coming trade will greatly effect his legacy and either establish that despite his flaws on deadline day and July 1st, he can nail the biggest moves; or show that he just got lucky that GMTM was so desperate for ROR and hates Russians.

PS this season has been a perfect storm of things going wrong: key injuries, bad puck luck, a roster assembled for one coach being run by a totally different coach, a psychologically fragile team having their confidence wrecked before the season by having their beloved coach bail on them, the goalies that they relied on for confidence going to s*** this season, old guys falling off cliffs even harder than could've been expected, young guys getting injuries right as they were to be afforded opportunities to secure bigger jobs (Zadorov recently and Bigras to start the season), etc.

Everything that could go wrong this season has; so though the roster was flawed, our depth was weak, and the defense still needed a big boost from our kids; this season hasn't been representative of the team assembled. This should be a bottom 10 team, no doubt, but this shouldn't be a historically inept team.
 
Last edited:

CodeE

step on snek
Dec 20, 2007
9,938
4,996
Los Angeles, CA
Yes, and then there's the, to use your own words, shades of grey between 1 and 2.

Perhaps teams were somewhat close to his asking price but wouldn't take the extra step that Sakic wanted. There's a whole slew of different scenarios that don't need it to be 1 or 2 among your options. It doesn't seem right that those are the only 2 possibilities.

If Sakic never said yes to any of those GMs, then they're just as much at fault for trying to hang onto the deal til the last minute.

If Mckenzie says no one met the asking price, I tend to believe him.

Either way, I go back to my original statement.

IMO, there's no way the GMs, 2 weeks ago, were complaining that Sakic's asking price was ridiculous...and now at the deadline, all of sudden several teams met the ridiculous asking price.

It just all sounds like posturing to me and trying to appease their fans that it's not their fault.

I'd bet money that Snow and JR will be right back in the mix with trying to get him in the off-season.

Totally believe the leaks to the media from nearly all parties involved, but that's how things are in 2017. Everyone's got a twitter insider they can give information to in order to hopefully sway negotiations in their favor. Things like complaining that the asking price was ridiculous 2 weeks ago but meeting it on deadline day is all hot air and propaganda, and also tweets that say Barzal & Hamonic aren't part of any Duchene deal. All media these days is fake news and sticking to established narratives.

"Close to the asking price but wouldn't take the extra step Sakic wanted" - what would that extra step be exactly? If it's an NHL 17 "keep adding picks until the trade goes through" scenario, I got to believe a GM would have added that extra sweetener. If that extra step is "include Barzal or no deal, I'm not doing the trade without him" and Snow refuses to trade Barzal, then we've got an impasse where further negotiations are not required. Give up the Barz or don't get the Duch, call me back when you're willing to do that.

So that begs the question: exactly how close did these teams come to landing Duchene? Why would Sakic forgo responsibilities of a selling team (trading veterans for late round picks) to focus on negotiating Duchene deals? Was it perhaps that he felt the potential returns for Duchene were more important than like a 5th or 6th for Tyutin? The inability of Sakic to start aggressively selling UFA like anyone else in his position is expected to do is a red flag - did he spend all deadline day simply answering the phone, rejecting offers, and waiting?
 

Habs 4 Life

No Excuses
Mar 30, 2005
41,036
4,831
Montreal
At the end of the day, I think Sakic did the best thing. Now if he is smart, I'd even start next season with them. There is no rush to move either one, even at the draft.
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,611
19,415
w/ Renly's Peach
Any concern how Duchene and Landeskog take this? AVs clearly in a rebuild mode and they are young enough to realistically stick around through it. However they are being shopped. Doesn't that send the message that the front office doesn't believe in them? Just wondering if it will create some bad blood between them and the FO.

That said maybe they deserve being put on the trading block with the season they are going through. And maybe they get dealt in the offseason and it won't matter.

No worries about Landeskog as he is playing great and has really committed to being part of the rebuild in interviews.

But I worry for Matt; he has always taken the team's struggles really hard, especially when he's slumping as well, and it has been painfully to see just how much the drama this season has worn on him.

That said; I can see Matt putting this behind him, now that the TDL has passed, and finishing the season on high note. Especially if Bednar keeps the top 6 structured the way it is currently...MacK & Duchene get 1 of Landeskog / Rantanen to be their partner in crime and one of Nieto / Andrighetto / Compher / Bourque to be the hard working third wheel on their line.

At the end of the day, I think Sakic did the best thing. Now if he is smart, I'd even start next season with them. There is no rush to move either one, even at the draft.

Eh, for Matt's sake I hope someone offers a Sergachev / Hanifin / Chabot / McAvoy based package for him in the summer. He needs a fresh start to keep his sanity and the time is by the start of next season.

Landeskog should stick around for the rebuild unless Boston offers us McAvoy+ for him and there is a Barrie for Drouin / Puljujarvi / Nylander waiting in the wings...in which case I could get on board with moving our captain as well; though my preference would be to keep him & Tyson as long as Duchene gets us that potential #1 dman.
 
Last edited:

EdAVSfan

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Aug 28, 2009
7,431
4,472
I agree. Far too many unknowns to say who's in the wrong. I guess it's just bothersome that two teams who were clearly interested, seem to putting it all at Sakic's feet.

Either way. I'm pretty sure Joe did work the phones to get rid of some UFAs. But ultimately it was a very weird trade deadline. Far better UFAs did not get moved.

We all know that the avs are terrible. Other than tyutin and MAYBE Bourque, we just didn't have any quality to sell. All the rest have term attached.

It's probably possible that no one wanted the crappy players from the worst team in the league.
 

jdpitt05

Registered User
Jan 10, 2009
2,060
8
Pittsburgh
We believe in them. I'm sure the front office does too. We just have a lot of holes. They know that.

Yeah I don't think you guys are even that far off. High draft pick this year, couple of key FA acquisitions, and a healthy team could be a competitive 2018 season. We know how quickly things can turn around in this league. I would keep both unless you get a stud Dman which his probably what Sakic did. And teams don't typically give those away so just build around them, focusing on the defense.

Zadorov, EJ, Barrie, Free Agent could be a decent top 4. Varlamov will be fine with a decent defense in front of him. Might just take a couple years to build up forward depth.
 

lindroshomer

Registered User
Jan 21, 2016
372
0
Ontario
I'm not a fan of Sakic as a GM. But to be fair, this mess has been a long time coming. We've had terrible asset management for years. We've had bad drafts for nearly 15 years. Our depth has always had a problem. The reason we're in this mess is not just because of Joe Sakic. Our team has been a dumpster fire for over a decade.

Yeah, so have the Toronto Maple Leafs...Joe Sakic is to blame.

Sakic is getting free pass after free pass, excuse after excuse...He's been with the front office since 2011? GM since 2014...

If he's not to blame, who is? The captain, goalie, owner? The team has 14 less points than the clearly rebuilding/tanking Coyotes. Just think about that for some time...
 

cgf

FireBednarsSuccessor
Oct 15, 2010
60,611
19,415
w/ Renly's Peach
Yeah I don't think you guys are even that far off. High draft pick this year, couple of key FA acquisitions, and a healthy team could be a competitive 2018 season. We know how quickly things can turn around in this league. I would keep both unless you get a stud Dman which his probably what Sakic did. And teams don't typically give those away so just build around them, focusing on the defense.

Zadorov, EJ, Barrie, Free Agent could be a decent top 4. Varlamov will be fine with a decent defense in front of him. Might just take a couple years to build up forward depth.

With our UFA record we'd probably end up missing out on Alzner and Radulov, and instead overpaying Kulikov and giving an oldie like Vrbata or Vanek too many years. Sure adding Alzner and Radulov with no key departures could put us back in the playoffs...especially if Bednar was replaced or he learned how to reach guys like Soderberg

Comeau* - Duchene - Radulov
Landeskog - MacK - Rantanen
Greer* - Soderberg - Compher
Nieto* - Patrick - Andrighetto

Zadorov - EJ
Alzner - Barrie
Bigras - Mironov/Barberio

Varlamov
Pickard / Martin

...but why would those guys come to Colorado?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad