Mat Barzal WILL take a huge step back next season

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LeafGrief

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It shows "differences" that amount to a few seconds a game against top players, IOW is shows QoC had negligible impact on their relative performance last year.

A few seconds a game? Just by the eye test (lol) on the graph, Tavares plays about 20% more than average against the #1 forwards. It looks to be about 20% for #1 defencemen too. 20% a game against one player might be a few (30ish) seconds a game against one particular player, over the course of an 82 game season that's 41 minutes against #1 forwards and #1 defensemen. And there's nothing in that graph that actually indicates any real numbers where you can tell me that it's only seconds per game. There's also nothing in that graph that suggests anything correlating performances to TOIQoC. You would actually need to provide some additional analysis to prove or disprove that link, Barzal and Tavares' relative % of icetime against opponents as a standalone stat does nothing to link or disprove the effect it had on their production. You've only made half an argument (tbh, it's a quarter of an argument because there's no real numbers) by posting one stat and doing no work to correlate it to production.

After writing the above paragraph, I even opened up paint to add some context, it looks to be slightly higher than 20% above average against first line forwards for Tavares


Auston Matthews played against only slightly higher competition than Barzal in his rookie season (29.1) and then did extremely well against top competition (29.71) as a sophomore. I believe that Barzal will improve and take on heavier minutes as well, especially since he's a young player and improving with an already elite skillset. But it IS harder to put up numbers against better players and Tavares did play against harder competition than Barzal did this year. What Barzal will do next year and in the years beyond is conjecture.
 

Swedish Gretzky

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Too soon to say imo for the first three. I’d say Matthews has clearly been better than Eichel but Barzal just put up the best NHL season in terms of points of all of them. Matthews was on pace for a similar point total if he hadn’t been injured.

People are sleeping on all these centres including Strome.
 
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lomiller1

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I'll admit my ignorance with QoC, but it looks like for most top players that there's little variance in QoC. How important is it really?

We've also yet to establish that Barzal's scoring rate is worse when the QoC is higher. By my viewings I didn't see him shutdown when he was focused on.

It matters when there is actual differences, but over the course of a season it turns out most QoC differences are small. Even "sheltered" vs "tough min" players end up facing somewhat similar QoC and the difference top players face is basically negligible.

Over shorter samples, a line can (for example) end up facing Bergeron all game and only a handful of lines in the NHL can handle that, the rest get beaten or outright annihilated. But this tends to even out over the season as coaches try to avoid bad matchups.
 
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LeafGrief

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I'll admit my ignorance with QoC, but it looks like for most top players that there's little variance in QoC. How important is it really?

We've also yet to establish that Barzal's scoring rate is worse when the QoC is higher. By my viewings I didn't see him shutdown when he was focused on.

I don't have a great answer for exactly how important it is, but as a stat it correlates quite well to who the top forwards and top defensemen are. If you think a guy is sheltered by your coach, it's generally reflected in their TOIQoC. For example, it does a really great job explaining Jake Gardiner. As a 50 point defenseman who plays 22 minutes a night, Gardiner is a top pairing defenseman by most normal metrics and puts up similar points and corsi compared to a player like Spurgeon. But when you look at TOIQoC, it's clear that Spurgeon is putting up his numbers against much better players than Gardiner is. Spurgeon tilts the ice against top lines and star players, while Gardiner is tilting the ice against second and third lines. Both are great hockey players, but Spurgeon is clearly better. The differences may be small by raw numbers, but when you look at context of where players fall in the league, it's clear that the small numbers mean much bigger things. Your top pairing on defence might have 29.6, while your second pair is 29.1, and your third pair is sheltered with 28.5. The difference between Tavares and Barzal is the same as the difference between Barzal and Ho-Sang.

You are correct that we have not established how well Barzal will do against tougher QoC. In my opinion, Barzal will do just fine next year when he faces tougher competition, he's a fantastic player. To be honest, I don't think he would have got 85 points this year if he was playing Tavares' minutes, but there's no reason that he can't improve over the summer. I don't think Matthews would have scored 40 goals as a rookie if he played Tavares' minutes either, but he's improved as a player and was very close in QoC to Tavares this year. Barzal could do the same.
 

LeafGrief

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LOL 10%, which translates into a difference of ~one shift per game.
40 seconds (one shift) x 82 is 54 minutes and 40 seconds a season.

And I even posted a picture that shows it's 20 percent. At two shifts a game, that's 109 minutes 20 seconds over a season. That's between five and six entire games, assuming 18-20 minutes a game, where you're playing against top pairs instead of middle pairs.
 

Price is Wright

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I think I watched Barzal 10 times last season, every game was on the road, and every game he played either the best or second best line. Looked great every time. Maybe takes a bit of a step back due to sophomore year and new coach, but otherwise he should still be well on his way to 1C status.
 

eviohh26

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I doubt it. Even if he fails to match his point total. Is that really a step back ? Yikes. Kid is gonna be killing it for years. Exciting player to watch.
 

blueberrie

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Tavares' hype was on a different level, but in terms of how they played as rookies, Barzal was a vastly superior rookie to Tavares in his rookie year.

And the comparable is that both (now with Barzal) have to be the 1C on a team with no one to shelter them. Tavares handled it just fine, and IMO, so will Barzal.

Come on, lol. Tavares draft year PPG was 1.86 vs Barzal at 1.30. 1st overall vs 16th. Tavares was by far a better prospect which is why he had more hype. It's not too surprising Barzal's D+3 rookie year was better than Tavares's D+1.

Their situation is a D1 player moving into their D2 on largely the same roster vs a D3 moving into a D4 after losing their best player. As prospects or as young NHL players their situations couldn't seem more different.
 

4thline

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Re- QoC, Tavares vs. Barzal is pretty immaterial. Tavares got light matchup/ heavy neutral, Barzal and Cizikas neutral, with Nelson getting sheltered. The issue isn't so much that "Barzal will flounder without Tavares sheltering him" because the difference really was minimal. The problem that may arise is that Tavares departure could create a vacuum that prevents the tough minutes from being so evenly shared, given Barzal a much worse situation than either of them had last year.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Come on, lol. Tavares draft year PPG was 1.86 vs Barzal at 1.30. 1st overall vs 16th. Tavares was by far a better prospect which is why he had more hype. It's not too surprising Barzal's D+3 rookie year was better than Tavares's D+1.

Their situation is a D1 player moving into their D2 on largely the same roster vs a D3 moving into a D4 after losing their best player. As prospects or as young NHL players their situations couldn't seem more different.

You basically reinforced what I said. Tavares' only edge was PRIOR to entering the league. As NHL players, Barzal had a superior rookie season.
 
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buud

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Re- QoC, Tavares vs. Barzal is pretty immaterial. Tavares got light matchup/ heavy neutral, Barzal and Cizikas neutral, with Nelson getting sheltered. The issue isn't so much that "Barzal will flounder without Tavares sheltering him" because the difference really was minimal. The problem that may arise is that Tavares departure could create a vacuum that prevents the tough minutes from being so evenly shared, given Barzal a much worse situation than either of them had last year.
it certainly will be tougher for Barzal next year. but i think most of us are assuming that the Isles stick with the current roster, and i think it will change. they have about $11 mil in cap space, and i think that LL will spend, if a decent value addition could be had.
 

blueberrie

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You basically reinforced what I said. Tavares' only edge was PRIOR to entering the league. As NHL players, Barzal had a superior rookie season.

Well no, you said Tavares' only edge was hype. Tavares increasing his NHL output from his D1 to D2 is meaningless when it comes to Barzal's situation though.
 

Sidney the Kidney

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Well no, you said Tavares' only edge was hype. Tavares increasing his NHL output from his D1 to D2 is meaningless when it comes to Barzal's situation though.

Hype surrounding what he did in junior. Which is what I said.

The point is, once they actually both reached the NHL, Barzal has the edge in how their rookie seasons went. Tavares' edge ended the minute their NHL careers began.

Obviously we don't know yet if Barzal can keep this up. But based on what we have to compare the two, Barzal's been the better NHL player (at the same point in their careers). The only time Tavares surpassed him was in junior.
 

izzy

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You basically reinforced what I said. Tavares' only edge was PRIOR to entering the league. As NHL players, Barzal had a superior rookie season.
tavares was a lot younger and also led his team in scoring by 1-2 points, he had a lot more to work on at that point compared to someone in their d+3

its not difficult to comprehend different scenarios
 

Sidney the Kidney

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tavares was a lot younger and also led his team in scoring by 1-2 points, he had a lot more to work on at that point compared to someone in their d+3

its not difficult to comprehend different scenarios

Tavares is a late birthdate. He played in the NHL at age 19, while Barzal didn't play until the year he turned 20. One year difference in actual age doesn't exactly fit the "a lot younger" argument.

Barzal also lead his team in scoring, including *ahead* of a prime Tavares. So I'm not sure what the bolded was meant to imply.
 
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blueberrie

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Hype surrounding what he did in junior. Which is what I said.

The point is, once they actually both reached the NHL, Barzal has the edge in how their rookie seasons went. Tavares' edge ended the minute their NHL careers began.

Obviously we don't know yet if Barzal can keep this up. But based on what we have to compare the two, Barzal's been the better NHL player (at the same point in their careers). The only time Tavares surpassed him was in junior.

None of which has to do with Barzal taking a step back next year or not.. I thought we were talking about if their situations were comparable and if Tavares' development indicates Barzal increasing his point totals next year?
 

Sidney the Kidney

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None of which has to do with Barzal taking a step back next year or not.. I thought we were talking about if their situations were comparable and if Tavares' development indicates Barzal increasing his point totals next year?

We were? And I was basing my comparison on the fact a rookie Tavares jumped from 54 points to 67 as a sophomore, despite having to face the other team's top defensive units. Just like a rookie Barzal is going to have to do next year.

If a rookie Tavares could make the improvement, why wouldn't someone who had a better rookie season be able to, is my point.
 
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blueberrie

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We were? And I was basing my comparison on the fact a rookie Tavares jumped from 54 points to 67 as a sophomore, despite having to face the other team's top defensive units. Just like a rookie Barzal is going to have to do next year.

If a rookie Tavares could make the improvement, why wouldn't someone who had a better rookie season be able to, is my point.

And my point is that 21 yo Barzal losing a superstar from his team and going from shadow to spotlight is a totally different scenario than 19 yo Tavares developing. I don't think comparing the two can tell you much at all about Barzal's upcoming season other than 'good players generally get better'.

Then again it's not like I can think of any better direct comparable either, it's not often superstar forwards change teams, especially with another star forward developing.
 

izzy

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Tavares is a late birthdate. He played in the NHL at age 19, while Barzal didn't play until the year he turned 20. One year difference in actual age doesn't exactly fit the "a lot younger" argument.

Barzal also lead his team in scoring, including *ahead* of a prime Tavares. So I'm not sure what the bolded was meant to imply.

its still years of development
 

boredmale

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1. Why? Maybe he'll have fewer zero point games too.

I love the he won't have 5 point games argument. People seem to have 0 problems including the first 6 games of the season he got 0 points(should we argue Barzal really had 85 points in 76 not 82 games?), beyond that if he doesn't have 5 point games that also doesn't rule out him having a bunch of 2 or 3 or 4 point games
 

boredmale

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no, you're the one trying to pretend a D+1 rookie season and a D+3 rookie season is an apples to apples comparison. don't act like others are in the wrong for recognizing the advantage Barzal had

Technically Tavares started int he NHL as a 19 year old, Barzal a 20 year old(or if you want to get real technical Barzal was 1 year and 4 months older)
 

Icebreakers

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Come on, lol. Tavares draft year PPG was 1.86 vs Barzal at 1.30. 1st overall vs 16th. Tavares was by far a better prospect which is why he had more hype. It's not too surprising Barzal's D+3 rookie year was better than Tavares's D+1.

Their situation is a D1 player moving into their D2 on largely the same roster vs a D3 moving into a D4 after losing their best player. As prospects or as young NHL players their situations couldn't seem more different.

Lol even if you compare both players draft +3 , Barzal still had the better season. Why don't you compare them both at age 21?

Tavares definitely has more to give with the amount of hype he received pre draft. He hasn't really lived up to most of it.
 
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