Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part V

[ULF_55]

I think Dubas' best option at this point is to let him sign an offer sheet. If he does and it's more than 11x8, the Dubas is redeemed because its out in the open what kind of over payment he was asking for... we get 4 1sts and go hard after Panarin. I'd also make sure to leak as many rumors as possible about the leafs reaching out to Panarin's agent to make Marner sweat a little....

Looking at this with a reasonable perspective, there is a point coming up in the next two weeks where the leverage Marner has can flip on its head and that is if he chickens out on signing an offer sheet or he doesnt get one thats worth as much as he is claiming to be worth. If I'm Dubas i'd basically say this offer is only on the table until that point, then 10 x 8 or GTFO and sit out.

Leafs can meet with all free agents after the draft so won't be a secret.

Maybe even move him before July 1st. if someone makes a good enough offer.

 

[TheDoldrums]

The best teams have game breakers though... getting to middling people to replace that cap space does not make us a better team unfortunately. We need a replacement big piece on the wing.

Taylor Hall next year would be an option.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

I'm just astonished how this fanbase is willing to give up on a superstar so easily.

Marner has given up on winning with the Leafs. Why would any Leafs fan want to cripple our team to accommodate for his ridiculous demands?

 

[hotpaws]

By judging what he would get in the ahh, actual market?

Why would he sign based on comparables when he thinks he can more testing RFA?

if he wanted to throw out comparable's to base his contract on then he should have gone that route like MM is saying he's going to do

and i'd much prefer the 12,5m x 7 yr offer sheet you threw out he could get like it was somehow worse than what he actually signed for , still an overpayment but i'd take the extra 2 yrs of term for just over 700k per

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Which ones?

It's funny that marner is way over priced but someone will give us a young #1D for him.

 

[Kiwi]

I guess you don't follow the Marlies all that much, eh?

2018-19:
U22 Bracco: 75GP 22G 79P
U22 BraccoEV: 75GP 14G 40P

U24 Moore: 46GP 23G 39P
U24 MooreEV+PK: 46GP 15G 26P

2017-18:
U24 Johnsson: 54GP 26G 54P
U24 JohnssonEV: 54GP 18G 36P

U22 Kapanen: 28GP 12G 24P
U22 KapanenEV+PK: 28GP 7G 14P

In many ways, Bracco is comparable to Kapanen (minus PK ability), and Moore is comparable to Johnsson (plus PK ability)

I watch the Marlies, I seen what all those players were

Johnsson was the AHL playoffs MVP and was significantly better than any Marlies forward and it wasn't close and Bracco isn't close to what Kapanen is defensively or 5v5

Bracco is a very average 2 way player 5v5 and he's going to do it tough

The funny thing is I have Moore in my top 9 and Bracco on my team because there dirt cheap even though I don't think it will go well

The longer Marner remains unsigned the more egg on Dubas' face. He said Marner was his #1 priority yet here we are. BTW I do not think MLSEL lets it get to the point where he sits out. They caved on Nylander, they will surely cave with Mitch, just sooner than the start of the season due to the additional cap hit.

So? I don't care what Dubas looks like I only care about what Marner's contract comes in at and if that contract sucks (which is almost a given at this point) the teams going to suffer

They can't just cave, they've tried that and there cap situation sucks so bad they can't anymore

 

[MyBudJT]

You are astonished because you love Marner more than the Leafs.

If a player's greed is pricing them off the team then they have to go. It's about winning and not just a pretty collection of names. You can't win if you can't afford to put a full team on the ice. If Marner was willing to sign a sensible deal and try to win with this team then people would love to have him around. But Marner isn't more important than the Leafs. It's a sad part of the cap system, but there you have it. Can't give everyone a blank check.

Was Ryan O'Rielly insensible when he wanted to sign for 10.4% of the cap after only one season > 55 pts?

I don't think Marner is being insensible. He's trying to take advantage of this opportunity to make money... like the majority of other players in the NHL.

This is a concept I've been wondering about lately. In the NBA, fans don't complain when players demand and recieve the Max contract. However, in the NHL, when players want to get compensated for what they bring to the team, people have a fit.

 

[MyBudJT]

Marner has given up on winning with the Leafs. Why would any Leafs fan want to cripple our team to accommodate for his ridiculous demands?

Its not any more ridiculous than Nylander's or Matthews'.... Why give up on Marner but not the other two?

 

[Trapper]

Now keep in mind these tweets are "beliefs".
It might be the very situation Nylander took so much heat over.
If Nylander asked for 8-8.5 and came in at 6.96, then Marner could start the ask at 11.

Now that being said, I don't pay Marner 11. I get a winger and a D plus whatever other additions I now have the money for.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

Was Ryan O'Rielly insensible when he wanted to sign for 10.4% of the cap after only one season > 55 pts?

I don't think Marner is being insensible. He's trying to take advantage of this opportunity to make money... like the majority of other players in the NHL.

This is a concept I've been wondering about lately. In the NBA, fans don't complain when players demand and recieve the Max contract. However, in the NHL, when players want to get compensated for what they bring to the team, people have a fit.

Very true... I think both sides know that the time to make a deal is next week and so a lot of this is posturing for now. At crunch time there will need to be some compromise... for now Dubas will line up some deals just in case.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Its not any more ridiculous than Nylander's or Matthews'.... Why give up on Marner but not the other two?

Yes it is. The other two were far more reasonable and are actually signed now

 

[MyBudJT]

Yes it is. The other two were far more reasonable and are actually signed now

Lets go through this excercise, yet again. How many U22 players have scored 94+ points in the last 25 years?

 

[ashs]

11m for 8 years is the most id offer him. he is my favourite leaf but 4 1st round picks can get us a lot in return.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Now keep in mind these tweets are "beliefs".
It might be the very situation Nylander took so much heat over.
If Nylander asked for 8-8.5 and came in at 6.96, then Marner could start the ask at 11.

Now that being said, I don't pay Marner 11. I get a winger and a D plus whatever other additions I now have the money for.

Only thing is the Marner camp has been vocal - Mitch has been "low-balled", "doesn't care about comparables" , he's been the underdog all his life etc

 

[MapleLeafs77]

Was Ryan O'Rielly insensible when he wanted to sign for 10.4% of the cap after only one season > 55 pts?

I don't think Marner is being insensible. He's trying to take advantage of this opportunity to make money... like the majority of other players in the NHL.

This is a concept I've been wondering about lately. In the NBA, fans don't complain when players demand and recieve the Max contract. However, in the NHL, when players want to get compensated for what they bring to the team, people have a fit.

Its pretty simple:

Matthews and tavares are signed and are centers. You are keeping them.

Marner at the same price as them kills your cap. I would rather nylander at 7 than marner at 11m.

You cant have 3 players at 11 mill. You cant have 3 players over 10 mill.

Leafs chose to go with centers. As would most of the league. Matthews and tavares are who the money is going to.

 

[4thline]

if he wanted to throw out comparable's to base his contract on then he should have gone that route like MM is saying he's going to do

and i'd much prefer the 12,5m x 7 yr offer sheet you threw out he could get like it was somehow worse than what he actually signed for , still an overpayment but i'd take the extra 2 yrs of term for just over 700k per

It's very likely he did and the Leafs evaluated that it would be better to make a deal within that framework rather than call his bluff and be sitting here today with a deal not done.

And I didn't throw it out there "like it was somehow worse". I threw it out as a likely batna he could have used in negotiation to say "I think I can get this on the market, for me to not test the market you have to make it worth my while"

 

[ShaneFalco]

If a player's greed is pricing them off the team then they have to go. It's about winning and not just a pretty collection of names. You can't win if you can't afford to put a full team on the ice. If Marner was willing to sign a sensible deal and try to win with this team then people would love to have him around. But Marner isn't more important than the Leafs. It's a sad part of the cap system, but there you have it. Can't give everyone a blank check.

This exactly

 

[Plub]

The longer Marner remains unsigned the more egg on Dubas' face. He said Marner was his #1 priority yet here we are. BTW I do not think MLSEL lets it get to the point where he sits out. They caved on Nylander, they will surely cave with Mitch, just sooner than the start of the season due to the additional cap hit.

There's no egg on his face when he offered 11mill over 8 years. That's a serious offer. He can't force Mitch Money to sign. It is even more difficult when Mitch wants to be the highest payed player in NHL history.

 

[hotpaws]

I watch the Marlies, I seen what all those players were

Johnsson was the AHL playoffs MVP and was significantly better than any Marlies forward and it wasn't close and Bracco isn't close to what Kapanen is defensively or 5v5

Bracco is a very average 2 way player 5v5 and he's going to do it tough

The funny thing is I have Moore in my top 9 and Bracco on my team because there dirt cheap even though I don't think it will go well



So? I don't care what Dubas looks like I only care about what Marner's contract comes in at and if that contract sucks (which is almost a given at this point) the teams going to suffer

They can't just cave, they've tried that and there cap situation sucks so bad they can't anymore

good post

and to the bolded , what else can they do ? if they did already offer 11m x 8yrs they've already caved just like they did with the rest of our high priced players

and i doubt MM's camp is taking the leak about Dube exploring deals seriously since he didn't have the balls to trade Nylander and Dube leaked that he was exploring trades during that contract negotiation as well

Dube f***ed up right from the get go with our cap , he should have made JT a 9,9.5m offer and then walked away if he didn't accept instead of giving him 11m and having the kids use him as an internal comparable .

 

[Kiwi]

It's funny that marner is way over priced but someone will give us a young #1D for him.

That's why we should let him sit and not give into his reported demands

 

[MyBudJT]

Its pretty simple:

Matthews and tavares are signed and are centers. You are keeping them.

Marner at the same price as them kills your cap. I would rather nylander at 7 than marner at 11m.

You cant have 3 players at 11 mill. You cant have 3 players over 10 mill.

Leafs chose to go with centers. As would most of the league. Matthews and tavares are who the money is going to.

I disagree, if you have a good prospect / development /recruitment system, you can have 3 forwards/players at 11M.

Not only that, the three players at 11M will be less of an issue NEXT season, AND the season after that, AND the season after that, AND even the season after that!!

 

[Kurtz]

Panarin is not happening. He's going to Florida.

Even if he wanted Toronto, the timing is too difficult to make it realistic to accept an offer sheet and land a top free agent this year. The top guys will already know where they're going July 1st.

Having said that I'm still fine with not matching, the cap space can be used in a lot of ways.

We don't know where Panarin is going. Florida is an early favourite, but he's yet to talk to any teams, as CBJ hasn't granted any team that permission. When he was coming over, rumour was we were high on his list, right behind Chicago. As we've seen recently, this management team has had a penchant for signing Russian players.

We have options. We can give Mitch a June 30th deadline - if he doesn't sign, we can go all in on Panarin. If Mitch signs an offer-sheet, then 4 1sts + Panarin >> Mitch. If he doesn't get an offer sheet, then he's welcome to sit the season or be traded for a haul.

 

[MapleLeafs77]

I disagree, if you have a good prospect / development /recruitment system, you can have 3 forwards/players at 11M.

Not only that, the three players at 11M will be less of an issue NEXT season, AND the season after that, AND the season after that, AND even the season after that!!

Lets rephrase this properly.

I would rather have nylander + kapanen + johnsson + 1rhd + free agent signings than marner.

I like depth. Especially for our defence.

Your more than welcome to show me a lineup with marner at 11 mill for next year with the cap at 82 mill.

 

[hotpaws]

Its pretty simple:

Matthews and tavares are signed and are centers. You are keeping them.

Marner at the same price as them kills your cap. I would rather nylander at 7 than marner at 11m.

You cant have 3 players at 11 mill. You cant have 3 players over 10 mill.

Leafs chose to go with centers. As would most of the league. Matthews and tavares are who the money is going to.

JT was a luxury not a necessity , Kadri was more than fine as a num 2 and if we're forced to trade an elite 22 yr old winger because mgmt decided to sign an elite ufa C who's 6 yrs older then that's huge failure in judgement on their part imo .

 

[biotk]

I thought Werenski can play right but no matter.
It’s value in for value out.

Werenski has always played on the left - either with Jones (almost all the time) or with Savard.
How much is Werenski going to sign for? 7M?
How much is Anderson going to demand in a year?

Babs doesn't want Rielly on the right, and Rielly doesn't want to be on the right either. If he did, he would have done so this year and played with Muzzin.

You aren’t getting Marner value with Pesce,Manson,etc.

Don't need to. Instead they get a really good return and loads of cap space. Manson is a great D, who excels in exactly the areas the Leafs need - on a cheap contract for the next three years. If they got Comtois as well then that is a young very physical player who also scores, has two years left on his ELC, as is a left winger - a much bigger need for the Leafs (unlike Anderson who is a right winger - a really good one who is also physical and can score)