Salary Cap: Marner Deal Discussion Part V

[TheDoldrums]

This is a concept I've been wondering about lately. In the NBA, fans don't complain when players demand and recieve the Max contract. However, in the NHL, when players want to get compensated for what they bring to the team, people have a fit.

The NBA doesn't have a hard cap. No one complains when their players demand money because they never have to lose any players if the owners are willing to pay the luxury tax.

 

[ORRFForever]

If he waits until July 1st and does NOT get an offer sheet, his leverage drops - does he really want to hold out?

If I was Marner, I would take the 8 x 11 and be happy.

 

[ORRFForever]

The NBA doesn't have a hard cap. No one complains when their players demand money because they never have to lose any players if the owners are willing to pay the luxury tax.

Yes. The NHL needs a luxury tax.

 

[MapleLeafs77]

And this is the best I can do with marner at 11M:

View attachment 238257

 

[MapleLeafs77]

Here is something I just made up. I think this looks pretty good and we have extra space during the year to get someone else for one year as well.

View attachment 238255

And this is the best I can do with marner at 11M.
I personally like the one without marner as it is more depth.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yep, its a shame. Nobody is talking about how much Kawhi is going to cost to keep. Its just give him the max 190 million rainbows and kittens. Meanwhile, NHL stars are having to toss their reputations into the dumpster just to claw and scratch an extra 500k.

Yeah, as leaf fans, we should all be cheering for a ridiculously rich 0.001 percenter to be slightly more rich, than cheering for our team to have the cap space to put together a contending team.

I don’t even look at the nhl standings throughout the season. I just look at player salaries on capfriendly. I don’t even watch the hockey games themselves. Instead, I follow the utterly rich millionaires on social media, and follow how many new sports cars they buy per month.

I mean... come on. It’s just so silly to cheer for players to squeeze every last penny at the expense of the team. They’re going to be FILTHY rich regardless, and nobody should pity them.

Our young core isn’t fighting tooth and nail for market value. They’re not not accepting market value. They’re fighting tooth and nail to reset the entire market and get unprecedented numbers. It’s inexcusable.

 

[Sypher04]

The NHL badly needs a soft cap. The fans deserve better.
It's taken 3 years for us to go from dumpster fire to cap hell.

 

[Havoc]

And that’s when the 2 young stars made 2 million between them. Not 22 million.

I think it's pretty amazing a team lead by youth was able to compete with the Caps and Bruins x2. Literally a few bounces here and there and they win those series.

Just imagine when these kids are in their prime. They'll dismantle the East.

 

[MyBudJT]

Bottom line, it's 50% or very close and yes, we're in trouble if we have no cap left for an actual TEAM.

We do have cap space to have an actual team.

Clearly you don't have interest in backing up your claim with numbers, so I'll go ahead an do it for you.

Lets take Boston for an example:

Boston spent ~41.5M on their bottom 19 players. Thats about the number we'd need to be at to fit under the cap.

That gives the average player ~ 2.2 AAV

With our cap structure, it can fit!

1) 6M (Acquisition)
2) 5M (Andersen)
3) 5M (Rielly)
4) 4.5M (Kadri)
5) 4.5M (Acquisition)
6) 2.25 (Hyman)
7) 2M (Acquisition)
8) 1.6M (Acquisition)

For the top 12 players, we'd spend ~ 71.5M Leaving us with ~10M to sign the bottom 11 players.

9) 1.5M (Acquisition)
10) 1.5M (Acquisition)
11) 0.925 (Mikheyev)
12) 0.925 (Kivihalme/Korshkov/Engvall)
13) 0.863 (Dermott/Liljegren)
14) 0.842 (Bracco)
15) 0.775 (Moore)
16) 0.775 (Petan)
17) 0.750 (Rosen)
18) 0.750 (Sparks/Back-up)
19) 0.675 (Gauthier/Holl)

These 19 players + Matthews + Marner + Nylander + Tavares = ~ 81M in cap space.

 

[MyBudJT]

For Me.

Team.

Player.

Always. in that order. I don't care if you are a superstar or a guy on a PTO. I cheer for the Crest. not the name on the back.


I have zero qualms paying Mitch 11.5 million dollars. Hell. if the boy wanted 15m. i'd do that. Why? because the leafs are rich.

Problem. there is a Salary Cap (something i've ranted and raved that i hate. it punishes good teams who make money it punishes good teams who DO draft well into not keeping their talent, and people want it because "parity" and "it punishes dumb Gms." - which it doesn't just look at Philly and Hayes).

So in this Hard Cap Salary World (where we are really tight up against it) you can't pay everything whatever they demand. the Leafs in good conscience can not sign Mitch Marner to 11-11.5 (where i will point out that the guy who just won the Hart trophy, and has been better than Mitch, makes 9-9.5). when you are already paying a crap load of resources up front.

Now. Someone screwed up if the reports were that they could have signed Mitch for 8.5 for whatever. that's on them. but at the same time I don't agree that Mitch (in the economic world we live in) is worth 11.5 for short years. andI was honest that if i had to choose between Nylander/Mitch, Nylander would have gone, we get the resources from that trade you pay Mitch 8.5 (or less). and call a day a day. IF we had to choose.

Well guess what. Now we have to choose, and they chose Nylander, Tavares and Matthews. mitch thinks he's worth the moon (his right), we can't give him the moon. the Team's priority should be to ensure they have enough resources to be competitive next season (including cap space for trades) make sure their back end is tight, get a back up goalie, and fill in other holes.

I personally wouldn't even wait for the offer sheet. i'd be trying to make a blockbuster deal to get the 2nd overall pick, featuring Marner. OR. let the guy sign the offer sheet. because the Leafs would match anything under 10. and anything over 10. we get first 4 round picks). then if I were Dubas i'd flat out say Mitch wanted this, I have to do what's best for my team and making sure this organization wins a cup which trumps having a super star.

but that's just me.

With all due respect, thats why I'm glad you're not the GM!

You can't give up on your superstar players so easily.

 

[Havoc]

And this is the best I can do with marner at 11M.
I personally like the one without marner as it is more depth.

View attachment 238259

lol what's the issue here. This team is filthy good. That D is better than the current stanley cup champs.

 

[IPS]

Yeah, as leaf fans, we should all be cheering for a ridiculously rich 0.001 percenter to be slightly more rich, than cheering for our team to have the cap space to put together a contending team.

I don’t even look at the nhl standings throughout the season. I just look at player salaries on capfriendly. I don’t even watch the hockey games themselves. Instead, I follow the utterly rich millionaires on social media, and follow how many new sports cars they buy per month.

I mean... come on. It’s just so silly to cheer for players to squeeze every last penny at the expense of the team. They’re going to be FILTHY rich regardless, and nobody should pity them.

Our young core isn’t fighting tooth and nail for market value. They’re not not accepting market value. They’re fighting tooth and nail to reset the entire market and get unprecedented numbers. It’s inexcusable.

FWIW you're seeing similar things throughout the league. Average 2nd liners like Brock Nelson and Kevin Hayes getting 6 and 7 million, Jeff Skinner making 9 million, etc etc...

But I'm in no way defending the Leafs RFA's demanding extreme $'s.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I think it's pretty amazing a team lead by youth was able to compete with the Caps and Bruins x2. Literally a few bounces here and there and they win those series.

Just imagine when these kids are in their prime. They'll dismantle the East.

We can’t compare people like Matthews and Marner to players like Crosby and Kane on the one hand, and then on the other hand say they’re too young to be decent in the playoffs. Both Crosby and Kane lead their teams to cups on their elc’s.

 

[Havoc]

With all due respect, thats why I'm glad you're not the GM!

You can't give up on your superstar players so easily.

Dude if we left the team in your hands we'd literally have Marner on every line and in net.

 

[MyBudJT]

Again, I was told repeatedly in the nylander vs Pastrnak thread that players get paid on their total elc points, not their final elc year.

Nylanders total elc points were better than Pastrnaks... but their final elc year was 20 goals/60 points vs 34 goals/70 points. They signed for same cap percentage, but Nylander is much more front loaded and more in bonuses with one less ufa year. Gross.

Now with Marner it’s just the final elc year that counts. Everything that rationalized Nylander’s overpayment is just thrown out the window, and a new narrative forms.

My problem is this lack of consistency that leaf fans show in these threads, and Dubas shows with the actual contracts.

If the leaf player has the better total elc points, then THAT is what's used to determine his contract. But if the leaf player has just a better final elc year, now it’s THAT that determines his contract.

If a leaf player has less points but more goals, then it’s GOALS that are more important. When the leaf player has less goals but more points, then it’s the POINTS that are more important.

There’s no consistency. And I’m getting really ****ing sick of it.

I've never bought into the notion that "full ELC prodcution" counts for the contract. These are prospects that should improve in years 3 as compared to year 1. Why penalize them for what they've done in their rookie season?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

FWIW you're seeing similar things throughout the league. Average 2nd liners like Brock Nelson and Kevin Hayes getting 6 and 7 million, Jeff Skinner making 9 million, etc etc...

But I'm in no way defending the Leafs RFA's demanding extreme $'s.

Ufa’s have always been payed like that. Every offseason ufa’s sign outrageous contracts that are heavily debated. None of that is new.

But what the leafs players are doing to the rfa market is unprecedented. They are unwilling to sign for fair market value.

 

[MyBudJT]

Dude if we left the team in your hands we'd literally have Marner on every line and in net.

Okay

 

[IPS]

Ufa’s have always been payed like that. Every offseason ufa’s sign outrageous contracts that are heavily debated. None of that is new.

But what the leafs players are doing to the rfa market is unprecedented. They are unwilling to sign for fair market value.

It's exactly why I wanted to see where Rantanen, Aho, Point etc... sign for before Marner signs.

Doesn't sound like that's going to happen though. Sounds like an imminent overpayment is happening no matter what.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I've never bought into the notion that "full ELC prodcution" counts for the contract. These are prospects that should improve in years 3 as compared to year 1. Why penalize them for what they've done in their rookie season?

My criticism is this:

Nylander was paid the same as Pastrnak, and this was rationalized as total elc points. Pastrnaks much better final elc year “didn’t matter”.

It now it’s an entirely different narrative with a Marner. It’s now “the final elc year matters by far the most”.

So if you agree that final elc year is what matters the most, I take it you agree that Nylander was heavily overpaid?

 

[MapleLeafs77]

lol what's the issue here. This team is filthy good. That D is better than the current stanley cup champs.

Its great! But I think the below is pretty solid throughout the lineup:

 

[MyBudJT]

My criticism is this:

Nylander was paid the same as Pastrnak, and this was rationalized as total elc points. Pastrnaks much better final elc year “didn’t matter”.

It now it’s an entirely different narrative with a Marner. It’s now “the final elc year matters by far the most”.

So if you agree that final elc year is what matters the most, I take it you agree that Nylander was heavily overpaid?

Yes, I believe he was overpaid. Highest I would have gone was 6.5M, and that would have been for 7 years.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yes, I believe he was overpaid. Highest I would have gone was 6.5M, and that would have been for 7 years.

Yes, he’s most certainly overpaid.

And as I said the very second that contract was signed... this will have a rippling effect on Matthews and marner.

 

[JayfromNB1219]

Flyers fan coming in peace. If it comes to Dubas having to make a trade, I think the Flyers match up well and here are some of the main pieces I could see being available from the Flyers POV.

Gostisbehere
Oskar Lindblom
Farabee
Frost
11th overall
2020 Picks
Large Group of prospects with NHL futures.

gostisbhere that 11th overall a prospect or two and a 1st and 2nd in 2020 and I would remotely consider it, all I know is that if Dubas trades him he better be getting the other teams kitchen sink in return (aka: RHD 1 pick this year 1 pick next year and 2 upper echeleon prospects...I don't know if Philly has the assets to make that happen honestly...Marner would be EXPENSIVE lol think Anthony Davis Pelicans to Lakers)

 

[Havoc]

We can’t compare people like Matthews and Marner to players like Crosby and Kane on the one hand, and then on the other hand say they’re too young to be decent in the playoffs. Both Crosby and Kane lead their teams to cups on their elc’s.

I haven't come across one person that compared our young guys to Crosby. Crosby-Malkin-Staal down the middle is the whole reason the 3C deep hype started. No team has come close to replicating the massacre of having C-M-S down the middle. Crosby didn't even have to win the conn smythe that year. Malkin played out of this world.

Even with generational talent like crosby and malkin, pens still only won once with them as youth. You speak as if pens mopped the floor every season.

Also, youth aside that Hawks team was deep from every angle. Defence 100x better than ours. Our youth can't even get our 3C to not get suspended. It's not a fair comparison. Marner and Matthews aren't gods.

Their time is coming.

 

[hamzarocks]

Why do we have 2 marner threads going at the same time. Should lock this one up if the discussion has been shifted to the other thread?