Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion Part XIX - Bert's Back in the Thread Title Game

Which would you choose


  • Total voters
    248
Status
Not open for further replies.

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,789
1,695
The Darkest Timeline
Add another month (November). What if we are at .500 (or slightly below that) at the end of November?

Dubas knows how much he can pay Marner and fit the caphit in under his plan. Therefore, whether its today, September, or the signing deadline, you cant give him more than that.

Can you budge a couple hundred K or give more signing bonuses? Of course. But caving .5m+ beyond what you thought was your limit is not a good idea.


If we are below .500 at November and Marners asking price is still Matthews contract, you cant give him 11.5m over 5 years. You are screwed for improving the team over the next 1-2 years and in 5 years you have to give 3 of our top forwards new deals at the same time.
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,623
2,227
Yes I would be fine with trading him. It's now 100% his fault if that happens. The Leafs still need to fit a team around his salary.

OK. So Marner shoulders all (100%) the blame here? Nothing to do with Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, or Dubas?

Its OK be me if that's what you think. I'm just curious about how people see this .....
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,789
1,695
The Darkest Timeline
So, in your opinion there's no connection between the two e.g. Marner sitting out & not getting past the 1st round?

No way to know if Nylander not sitting out could have changed the outcome this year so why bother thinking about "what if?". The fact of the matter is that we didnt win in the playoffs, not that because Nylander didnt sign in september we lost in the playoffs.
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,623
2,227
Dubas knows how much he can pay Marner and fit the caphit in under his plan. Therefore, whether its today, September, or the signing deadline, you cant give him more than that.

Can you budge a couple hundred K or give more signing bonuses? Of course. But caving .5m+ beyond what you thought was your limit is not a good idea.

If we are below .500 at November and Marners asking price is still Matthews contract, you cant give him 11.5m over 5 years. You are screwed for improving the team over the next 1-2 years and in 5 years you have to give 3 of our top forwards new deals at the same time.

Could you trade a roster player that isn't (nearly) as good as Marner and free up sufficient cap space?
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,789
1,695
The Darkest Timeline
OK. So Marner shoulders all (100%) the blame here? Nothing to do with Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, or Dubas?

Its OK be me if that's what you think. I'm just curious about how people see this .....

Marner and Rielly are my favourite 2 players ao I want him back.

Him signing last did 2 things:
- Give him leverage based on the other contracts
- Leave only so much of the "pie" left

Whether fair or not, his fault or Dubas's, the fact is that there isnt an unlimited amount of caphit and I doubt Dubas is willing to move any more significant salary to fit in Mitch considering the $ from Ceci and Muzzin seems earmarked for Barrie and Dermott next year.
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,623
2,227
No way to know if Nylander not sitting out could have changed the outcome this year so why bother thinking about "what if?". The fact of the matter is that we didnt win in the playoffs, not that because Nylander didnt sign in september we lost in the playoffs.

Is Nylander as good as Marner? If the answer is no, then it seems like the impact of a season (or partial season even) without Marner is a question worth asking. No?
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,623
2,227
Marner and Rielly are my favourite 2 players ao I want him back.

Him signing last did 2 things:
- Give him leverage based on the other contracts
- Leave only so much of the "pie" left

Whether fair or not, his fault or Dubas's, the fact is that there isnt an unlimited amount of caphit and I doubt Dubas is willing to move any more significant salary to fit in Mitch considering the $ from Ceci and Muzzin seems earmarked for Barrie and Dermott next year.

Yes, the part I bolded that you mentioned is worth considering. It makes it tricky but also dispels the earlier notion some had that we are walking on easy street once we get past this year.
 

kb

Registered User
Aug 28, 2009
15,289
21,735
OK. So Marner shoulders all (100%) the blame here? Nothing to do with Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, or Dubas?

Its OK be me if that's what you think. I'm just curious about how people see this .....
That's like blaming your parents for the type of person you become. His decisions and the outcomes are now his fault, plain and simple.

If Mitch wanted the biggest piece of the pie, he shouldn't have shown up after it's been sliced and all served.

And let's face it. Playing with Tavares blew up his numbers
 

Marshy

Behind Enemy Lines
Oct 3, 2007
8,148
9,212
Ottawa
What am I missing here. I thought bridge contracts were a massive undercut for the players and were a team friendly deal. I would assume bridge contracts these days run for anywhere between $4-$6 mil for 2/3 years. Not $10 mil per. Mitch's agent really is in la la land.


There really isn't a big enough font for the bolded.

I would love to hear what other agents think of this clown. It wouldn't surprise me if it was discovered that the guy is a fraud and bluffed his way through to becoming an agent. He does the same ridiculous stuff with all his clients. Threaten holdout. Threaten Europe. The guy isn't a good faith negotiator. The GMs are wise to this guys shtick now and I would bet there have been some closed door discussions on how to deal with this shyster.
 

Community

44 is Rielly good
Oct 30, 2010
6,789
1,695
The Darkest Timeline
Is Nylander as good as Marner? If the answer is no, then it seems like the impact of a season (or partial season even) without Marner is a question worth asking. No?

I just personally think that is too short sighted (caving so he plays more of one season) and impossible to tell if it was the direct reason for any difference or not by the end of the year.

For example, we actually did better points wise without Nylander, but I would not say it was his fault when he came back that we got worse.
 

HoweHullOrr

Registered User
Oct 3, 2013
11,623
2,227
That's like blaming your parents for the type of person you become. His decisions now are his fault, plain and simple.

If Mitch wanted the biggest piece of the pie, he shouldn't have shown up after it's been sliced and all served.

And let's face it. Playing with Tavares blew up his numbers

I honestly don't know what to think, nor do I have all of the answers.

Not that it matters for this discussion, but who you are is heavily influenced by your parents. That is a well known fact. That's an aside, and doesn't have a lot to with this discussion. But, I wouldn't have used that analogy.

More relevant would be wondering about management's role in this. They needed to try to project the future and possible outcomes (salaries, impact of free agent acquisitions, etc.). That's called risk management and you have to consider less than ideal scenarios when doing risk management.

Its human nature to want to get paid what you feel your worth relative to your peers. Whether its right or wrong to wait, its still something that I think management needs to consider. Especially when you parachute a guy in from the outside and pay him $11 m/year.

And, you can't say Marner was the first to think of a short term contract. That precedent was already set by the other 2/3rds of the big three.

I would pose the question, would losing one of the big three not be a relatively expected future outcome given that our big three would need new contracts within a short timeframe? Was this outcome considered by our management? Would that not be even more likely after signing Tavares to $11 m contract? Is this just a cap reality?

Maybe Dubas & company did think of this for all we know. But, if true, did he anticipate it would be Marner that would need to be subtracted? Again, its all part of the risk management process that you hope management goes through. Its fair to ask these kind of questions you'd think.
 

4thline

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
14,394
9,722
Waterloo
What am I missing here. I thought bridge contracts were a massive undercut for the players and were a team friendly deal. I would assume bridge contracts these days run for anywhere between $4-$6 mil for 2/3 years. Not $10 mil per. Mitch's agent really is in la la land.

Bridge contracts generally aren't signed by players that have proven themselves elite. The only one in recent years is Panarin, and it cap adjusts to $6.7M, was 2 years instead of 3, and had a career high of 77 points vs 94.
 

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,526
2,882
As mentioned above, there is no way Marner's signed past, say, October 15th. Even that's a stretch, since whatever the base AAV is, it's going to get upped due to pro-rating on the first year (remember, Nylander's contract wound up being around $10.3M on the cap last year). We won't be able to do much to make signing him possible on the cap even through mid-October.

If I am not mistaken the reason for getting the Clarkson contract back solves that problem. Essentially if Marner not signed then Dermott and Hyman put on LTIR to start season. Team is cap compliant right before start of season and then Clarkson and Horton are put on LTIR. Its a loophole that will allow their cap space to accumulate. So 30% of the way through season there is $3M accumulated that can offset the bump in notional cap hit from Marner signing late. The reason to reacquire Clarkson was that. Only works if you can get yourself right to the cap with the injured guys on roster and then move them onto LTIR.
 

nobody

Registered User
Aug 8, 2017
3,723
3,304
Bridge contracts generally aren't signed by players that have proven themselves elite. The only one in recent years is Panarin, and it cap adjusts to $6.7M, was 2 years instead of 3, and had a career high of 77 points vs 94.
I get that. Traditionally it's a prove it to me contract and it's not like Mitch has a track record of multiple 90+ point seasons or any significant personal accomplishments. So it does kinda work here, otherwise we are looking at a 2 year discount and Mitch cashing in when the cap should be theoretically around 85++ mil in 2 years once the TV deals kick in. Not to mention his agent is notorious for getting bridge deals for his clients.
 

4thline

Registered User
Jul 18, 2014
14,394
9,722
Waterloo
I get that. Traditionally it's a prove it to me contract and it's not like Mitch has a track record of multiple 90+ point seasons or any significant personal accomplishments. So it does kinda work here,

It works, but at 7+ for 3 years. He's still a 94 point player, he's not signing for 4-6 on any term.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Gr8 Dane

CDN24

Registered User
Jun 17, 2009
3,526
2,882
I doubt either side feels any pressure after 14 games unless we have won/lost something ridiculous like 85% of the games so far.

12-0-2 Or 2-0-12

Something around .500 doesnt make Dubas cave at 14 games in (look at STL last year).

Even 4-2-8 (8 losses, i cant remember the correct order right now for w-OTL-L for some reason) shouldnt be enough to make Dubas significantly overpay to get Marner back IMO.

Not all teams in last place on jan 1 will come back and make the playoffs let alone the cup. I think that if Nov 1 the Leafs are around 500 and sitting in 6th place in the Atlantic, Dubas will be under immense pressure.

Atlantic will be tougher this year and playoffs are no given.
Bolts and Bruins are still good
Habs only were 4 pts behind Leafs last year
On paper FLA is much better
Buffalo should be better

Leafs only made playoffs by 4 points last year. I don't think they can afford to have marner miss to many games. Those saying let him sit out all year may change their minds when team is on outside looking in
 

nobody

Registered User
Aug 8, 2017
3,723
3,304
Not all teams in last place on jan 1 will come back and make the playoffs let alone the cup. I think that if Nov 1 the Leafs are around 500 and sitting in 6th place in the Atlantic, Dubas will be under immense pressure.

Atlantic will be tougher this year and playoffs are no given.
Bolts and Bruins are still good
Habs only were 4 pts behind Leafs last year
On paper FLA is much better
Buffalo should be better

Leafs only made playoffs by 4 points last year. I don't think they can afford to have marner miss to many games. Those saying let him sit out all year may change their minds when team is on outside looking in
We were a borderline .500 team second half of the season after being comfortably in the top 3-4 in the ENTIRE LEAGUE for the first like 35-40 games. I think coaching is responsible for the team's lack of preparedness along with Willy coming on and messing up team chemistry.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,254
33,003
St. Paul, MN
8 years is a big freaking deal. Matthews got McDavid money when you factor that in. Not team friendly at all.

Again, no he didn't.

McDavid earns more real money and carries a higher aav (even taking into account just the first 5 years of his contract).
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
Apparently. The Matthews contract is the one that reset the market IMO. It is holding up Marner and the other elite RFAs (PointéRantannen/Laine/conners etc) are all waiting on Marner as they are expecting or hoping for another overpayment.
Ok. now your original response has me confused as I had said in comparison it would suggest Matthews got overpaid.
 

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
oof a pretty steep for only 3 years. Nylander signed 6 years at $7M so if marner wants 3 years imo it doesn't go higher than nylander.
7x6
7x3
that's probably the difference between the 2 in all honesty, same pay but half the term for marner pretty much is the gap in their talent

edit: 5+ years then we can talk about 8,9,10M for him

That all seems reasonable. But if things were reasonable...he'd be signed.lol It seems on the Leafs, if you are a star, be unreasonable.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,254
33,003
St. Paul, MN
spin/deflect/shift the goal posts all you like but it's obvious your on an island all your own

there's no comparable to what Mathews signed for , Dubas **** himself at thought of having another a long protracted holdout or an offer sheet and basically dropped his pants and bent over , everyone sees this but you and a few others

Simply replying "there is no comparable" for Matthew's until you're red in the face doesnt make it any more true. Folks have already posted int this thresd and earlier incarnations of it the various ones since the formation ofnthebsalary cap. He earns more than a guy like Toews and less than Crosby/McDavid tiers. Which seems to be perfectly in line with where he should be.

That's also ignoring the variable that hes arguably the best goal scorer in the NHL at the moment and played the 1c position from his post draft year onwards
 
  • Like
Reactions: TML Dynasty and kb

RLF

Registered User
May 5, 2014
3,303
890
Again, no he didn't.

McDavid earns more real money and carries a higher aav (even taking into account just the first 5 years of his contract).

That is just contract structure. McDavid is giving up 3 more UFA years, so the overall contract should be more. If Matthews signed for 8 years, do you think it would have carried an AAV of $11.6M or more?
 

Suntouchable13

Registered User
Dec 20, 2003
43,463
18,889
Toronto, ON
Apparently. The Matthews contract is the one that reset the market IMO. It is holding up Marner and the other elite RFAs (PointéRantannen/Laine/conners etc) are all waiting on Marner as they are expecting or hoping for another overpayment.

These guys are slimy. They are waiting for an over payment, while they ignore Aho's contract. They reject that as a comparable.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad