Salary Cap: Marner Contract Discussion Part XIX - Bert's Back in the Thread Title Game
- Thread starter BertCorbeau
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Maple Leaf
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LeafChief
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A month ago Bob McKenzie said he didnt expect any of the big name RFAs to sign until September. Hes half way there
@Notsince67
"Size is a bit over rated in projecting players. It helps but a lot of projections were made on size alone and they were wrong."
I didn't say a thing about making projections on size alone. You decided to compare Marner to Jagr. I said that it was a bad comparison. I also said that your claim that Jagr came into the NHL as a tank was wrong. He was big, but didn't use his size. He relied on talent and finesse when he entered the NHL - which had been more than enough to bring him success before he made it to the NHL. It took him several years to both develop strength and learn how to use his size.
I watched almost every NHL game Mario played. I watched almost every game Jagr played for the Pens. I have watched almost every game Matthews has played in the NHL. Lots of people made the claim - for each of them - that because of their size when they entered the NHL that they were near full potential (although oddly the opposite claim was made for Laine). That claim was completely wrong for Mario and Jagr (and I suspect will be just as wrong for Matthews) who were actually further from their peak potential than most other stars who are able to step into a big role in their D+1.
"Gretzky was 145 lbs soaking wet when he played his first pro game, in a much more physical era. Crosby is a lot smaller than Matthews. Players who aren't big just play a different game."
This has nothing to do with what I said. I never said that smaller players couldn't play in the NHL. I said that a small player like Marner shouldn't be compared to a big player like Jagr when it comes to development. Just as you shouldn't compare Marner to a late developing player when it comes to development.
"Size is a bit over rated in projecting players. It helps but a lot of projections were made on size alone and they were wrong."
I didn't say a thing about making projections on size alone. You decided to compare Marner to Jagr. I said that it was a bad comparison. I also said that your claim that Jagr came into the NHL as a tank was wrong. He was big, but didn't use his size. He relied on talent and finesse when he entered the NHL - which had been more than enough to bring him success before he made it to the NHL. It took him several years to both develop strength and learn how to use his size.
I watched almost every NHL game Mario played. I watched almost every game Jagr played for the Pens. I have watched almost every game Matthews has played in the NHL. Lots of people made the claim - for each of them - that because of their size when they entered the NHL that they were near full potential (although oddly the opposite claim was made for Laine). That claim was completely wrong for Mario and Jagr (and I suspect will be just as wrong for Matthews) who were actually further from their peak potential than most other stars who are able to step into a big role in their D+1.
"Gretzky was 145 lbs soaking wet when he played his first pro game, in a much more physical era. Crosby is a lot smaller than Matthews. Players who aren't big just play a different game."
This has nothing to do with what I said. I never said that smaller players couldn't play in the NHL. I said that a small player like Marner shouldn't be compared to a big player like Jagr when it comes to development. Just as you shouldn't compare Marner to a late developing player when it comes to development.
Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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I met Jagr when he was 18 years old. I even had a couple of drinks at a bar in PA with him after the cops ignored the fact he was underage.
Anything else?
edit. Bar was called the sports garden in station square if you are at all interested
4 first round picks.
socko
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Irrelevant. If you think he was a tank or played like a tank when he entered the NHL you didn't watch him play. Jagr was great at deking around players. But he was manhandled by players half his size.
LaPlante94
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Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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Irrelevant. If you think he was a tank or played like a tank when he entered the NHL you didn't watch him play. Jagr was great at deking around players. But he was manhandled by players half his size.
(although when Tocchet and Wregget joined the Pens Jagr was already 20 - so that blows a hole in your made up story)
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Notsince67
Papi and the Lamplighters
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It was late winter of 92. If anything, he just turned 20. I only remember 18 because that is what they said he was. I know he was built like a tank because I was bigger than Tocchet and Jagr made me look smallish
LeafalCrusader
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Looking forward to his holdout next summer.
Is he going to hold out for 3 mil AAV? lol
LeafalCrusader
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Hope I'm wrong but IMO. Not going to happen any time soon. I'll be surprised if this is done by training camp.
Bomber0104
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It sure is looking like it.
There's one person to blame that on and that's the GM.
In the past calendar year, he's shown he's quite OK with breaking precedents with both contracts (Matthews) and holdouts (Nylander) ....
If you're Marner's agent, why wouldn't you try to exploit the same weakness Dubas has shown already?
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CantLoseWithMatthews
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it sure is lucky the guy you hate is the only person to blame for a negotiation involving several people
Bomber0104
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I wouldn't blame Dubas for the Zaitsev and Marleau contracts.
But under your logic maybe I can?
This is where you went off the tracks.
Even though Dermott was injured late, he still managed to throw up around 1000 minutes which is a solid sample size for to evaluate any NHL which is the good thing.
TOI QoC% has a very narrow range though so lets see where Girard and Dermott rank league wide among all dmen who played 900 minutes or more last year:
Out of the 147 players who met this criteria:
Girard: 43rd out of 147: Started solidifying top pairing minutes on the Avs against the other teams best players.
Dermott: 146 out of 147: Just edged out Mackenzie Weeger for the lowest in the league among regulars.
Now take into account that Dermott is skirting the top ten in offensive zone starts and you are looking at probably the favorite nominee for the most sheltered dman in the NHL.
Thats not to say Im down on him but I just find him wildly overrated around here. The Leafs ran their top 4 harder than almost any other team in the league which is why you had guys like Zaitsev and Gardiner have higher TOI QoC% than other teams top usage guys as they ran more balanced systems.
Making things even more maddening is the fact Dermotts numbers plummeted when he was moved up the lineup for some top 4 duty so his bottom pairing numbers were even more impressive.
Sadly, his last year was pretty much a disappointment but he could finally make the jump to tougher minutes this year and we better hope he does as we lost two of the toughest minute players in the league in Hainsey and Zaitsev and I'm hoping another year of Dermott's development plus Ceci having experience playing those minutes can close the gap for this cap crunch year.
If I had to hand out a contract now, 2.75 bridge for a couple of years? He's got to show stronger top 4 potential before we should hand out crazy contracts to (probably)the most sheltered regular minutes D in the NHL.
Mickey Marner
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