Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects- Early Off Season time

[Prodigy MayD]

Can you tell me why he's playing in the 2nd tier league?

He is playing in the 2nd tier league because the Czech league is overflowing with players. Think about it this way. You have a full league of players, all teams are full. Both the parent and tier 2. Now, you have all the CHL and AHL players importing and trying to get into your league. The fact he is even getting ice time is massive right now. Lots of guys are struggling to even find a team.

 

[meefer]

Would be interesting to see how Liljegren would do with Muzzin for a 20 game stretch. Putting him with a competent veteran could do wonders for him.

It's what most teams do with young OFD.

Hainsey was constantly talking with Rielly when they were paired, look what it did for Mo. One thing the Leafs have consistently done badly is pair their young D with less than quality partners. We wonder why they rarely pan out. Muzzin would reduce the anxiety Timothy would be feeling, could confirm decisions on the bench, talk him through stuff on the ice, help him succeed.

 

[justashadowof]

This is spot on. When he skipped playing junior and went straight to the AHL, people lost sight of where he actually was in his development.

He's going to be a solid player. Is he going to be a top pair? Highly unlikely. Could he be a really good 4? Probably. Think Stralman.

Just to point out that Stralman was a much better player at the same age Liljegren is now. Liljegren also isn't a cocky little punk like a 21 year old Stralman was either. Liljegren however could be well worth the patience. Not every prospect's improvement curve is steep and not every future NHL player brims over with confidence and bravado at a young age. He may be the type of player who repays the organization with loyalty for their patience and care in nurturing his development.

 

[TML Dynasty]

Hainsey was constantly talking with Rielly when they were paired, look what it did for Mo. One thing the Leafs have consistently done badly is pair their young D with less than quality partners. We wonder why they rarely pan out. Muzzin would reduce the anxiety Timothy would be feeling, could confirm decisions on the bench, talk him through stuff on the ice, help him succeed.

Id like to stick Lehtonen there for same reason. But agreed on them not giving our young guys a responsible vet partner

 

[Canada4Gold]

Just to point out that Stralman was a much better player at the same age Liljegren is now. Liljegren also isn't a cocky little punk like a 21 year old Stralman was either. Liljegren however could be well worth the patience. Not every prospect's improvement curve is steep and not every future NHL player brims over with confidence and bravado at a young age. He may be the type of player who repays the organization with loyalty for their patience and care in nurturing his development.

I don't recall how Stralman's 20 year old season in the SEL went but it's hard to compare across leagues and 13 year gaps. At the age Liljegren is now Stralman was just coming over to the NHL/AHL so we'll see how Liljegren does this season...

 

[supermann_98]

Anyone think we see Bracco on the Leafs next year?

I think the chances are zero

 

[Cor]

Anyone think we see Bracco on the Leafs next year?

Probably the biggest mystery of the off-season. There's a few ways this can go (in order of likelihood, IMO)

1. He signs in Europe (ala Ho-Sang) and Leafs qualify him to retain his rights, and maybe some time away will help.
2. Dubas sends him to a team like Detroit, Ottawa, Arizona that could give him an opportunity for a 4th or 5th.
3. Dubas sends him to a team for another disgruntled prospect. Perhaps Borgstrom from FLA. Andersson in NYR.
4. Dubas uses the Kapanen departure to give Bracco a "put up or shut up" opportunity on the third line.
5. Leafs don't qualify him and walk away.

 

[justashadowof]

I don't recall how Stralman's 20 year old season in the SEL went but it's hard to compare across leagues and 13 year gaps. At the age Liljegren is now Stralman was just coming over to the NHL/AHL so we'll see how Liljegren does this season...

You're right on the alignment of their ages. Stralman's 20yo season in Sweden was very good. He was a starter at the World Championships. But no, Stralman wouldn't have played in NA pros yet. I'm judging from viewing the players. Stralman was a confident standout immediately who was only demoted due to the NHL roster situation (the team had Kubina, McCabe and White on the right side). Stralman looked as confident as Sandin only with better skating, more solid build and playing the right side.

 

[Canada4Gold]

You're right on the alignment of their ages. Stralman's 20yo season in Sweden was very good. He was a starter at the World Championships. But no, Stralman wouldn't have played in NA pros yet. I'm judging from viewing the players. Stralman was a confident standout immediately who was only demoted due to the NHL roster situation (the team had Kubina, McCabe and White on the right side). Stralman looked as confident as Sandin only with better skating, more solid build and playing the right side.

That's fair, but if you're looking at how Stralman did in the NHL that's a comparison to Liljegren's next season so you don't have that data set there for Liljegren yet. So if you're using the NHL/AHL viewings from when Stralman was 21 you can't say he was better at the same age as Liljegren hasn't played that season yet.

If you want to say his 20 SEL season was better than Liljegren's 20 AHL season that's fair game. I didn't watch Stralman in the SEL so I have no idea.

 

[natephil]

The thing with Liljegren is
- due to the pre draft hype (and resultant post draft hype) he's being judged against the curve expected of a top 3 pick rather than mid round
-3 year development at the AHL level makes him look stagnant vs. getting flashy numbers in a junior league before jumping the the AHL at 20
-he missed his U20 WJC to injury which tends to be a coming out party/ litmus test for public consensus
-Sandin is absolutely crushing it

But when you actually look at his performance as a U21 player in the AHL it charts solidly as a player that has 2-3 upside and if is likely to be a 4-5 .

I still feel Liljegren ends up the more valuable player to this leafs team than Sandin and I love sandin. He fits what we need. You watch him play all situations in the AHL and look like a steady veteran. I’ll take that from a 21 year old over a CHL standout. I think he just needs the chance to get regular time in the NHL and be given a leash to make mistakes in the NHL to get the confidence to succeed. Long term I think he will be a great asset and would hate moving on from him early.

 

[Fogelhund]

Probably the biggest mystery of the off-season. There's a few ways this can go (in order of likelihood, IMO)

1. He signs in Europe (ala Ho-Sang) and Leafs qualify him to retain his rights, and maybe some time away will help.
2. Dubas sends him to a team like Detroit, Ottawa, Arizona that could give him an opportunity for a 4th or 5th.
3. Dubas sends him to a team for another disgruntled prospect. Perhaps Borgstrom from FLA. Andersson in NYR.
4. Dubas uses the Kapanen departure to give Bracco a "put up or shut up" opportunity on the third line.
5. Leafs don't qualify him and walk away.

If the Leafs could find a Bigger than average, solid defensive C, who is good on draws, it might be interesting to see Bracco on a line with Robertson.... If Bracco's ability to set people up, works with Robertson's shooting in the NHL, they could make an interesting pairing.

 

[Fogelhund]

I still feel Liljegren ends up the more valuable player to this leafs team than Sandin and I love sandin. He fits what we need. You watch him play all situations in the AHL and look like a steady veteran. I’ll take that from a 21 year old over a CHL standout. I think he just needs the chance to get regular time in the NHL and be given a leash to make mistakes in the NHL to get the confidence to succeed. Long term I think he will be a great asset and would hate moving on from him early.

The biggest lesson in Stralman discussion, should be, don't give up on young D, they take time to develop fully, and that development isn't linear, or predictable. I don't know what Liljegren or Sandin end up as, but we need to let this play out, as I hope that both end up being contributors to this organization, down the road.

 

[Canada4Gold]

The biggest lesson in Stralman discussion, should be, don't give up on young D, they take time to develop fully. I don't know what Liljegren or Sandin end up as, but we need to let this play out, as I hope that both end up being contributors to this organization, down the road.

I would say the same thing about Dermott too TBH. A lot of people seem to want him traded and I don't get it. Not a prospect anymore but a roster player, but he's still only 23 and has done well in a 3rd pairing role. Has done good up the lineup when Rielly and/or Muzzin were hurt as well. We need defence, we've got a solid one, let him develop into what you need rather than trade him because he's a LD and not top 4 yet by the time his ELC runs out only to try to sign a guy about the same level for 4 million dollars because he's 30 and can play the right side. If that's how you develop D we'll be getting our top 4 from UFA or trade for the rest of eternity.

 

[Cor]

I would say the same thing about Dermott too TBH. A lot of people seem to want him traded and I don't get it. Not a prospect anymore but a roster player, but he's still only 23 and has done well in a 3rd pairing role. Has done good up the lineup when Rielly and/or Muzzin were hurt as well. We need defence, we've got a solid one, let him develop into what you need rather than trade him because he's a LD and not top 4 yet by the time his ELC runs out only to try to sign a guy about the same level for 4 million dollars because he's 30 and can play the right side. If that's how you develop D we'll be getting our top 4 from UFA or trade for the rest of eternity.

I don't think people WANT Dermott traded, as much as it just appears he's the odd man out, and his value could be used to acquire someone in a position of need (say a goalie, if Andersen is moved)

 

[Fogelhund]

I would say the same thing about Dermott too TBH. A lot of people seem to want him traded and I don't get it. Not a prospect anymore but a roster player, but he's still only 23 and has done well in a 3rd pairing role. Has done good up the lineup when Rielly and/or Muzzin were hurt as well. We need defence, we've got a solid one, let him develop into what you need rather than trade him because he's a LD and not top 4 yet by the time his ELC runs out only to try to sign a guy about the same level for 4 million dollars because he's 30 and can play the right side. If that's how you develop D we'll be getting our top 4 from UFA or trade for the rest of eternity.

How much does Dermott get on this contract? We are very limited in Cap space at the moment, and have to be careful how we spend.

There is no question that Muzzin and Rielly will be our top two pairing LHD, for some time. Do we have the cap space, to be paying our third pairing LHD, $2-3 million? Whatever he ends up getting?

Does it make sense to send Sandin back to the Marlies full time? Dermott's future here, really is playing the Right Side...and at this point, we have no idea if he can, or not.

He's a valuable player, and if there was no cap, you keep him for sure. Can we afford to "hope" he works out on Right Side, and be wrong? Would it be better, to find a RD, that we know will work out instead? It's a tough call.

 

[Canada4Gold]

How much does Dermott get on this contract? We are very limited in Cap space at the moment, and have to be careful how we spend.

There is no question that Muzzin and Rielly will be our top two pairing LHD, for some time. Do we have the cap space, to be paying our third pairing LHD, $2-3 million? Whatever he ends up getting?

Does it make sense to send Sandin back to the Marlies full time? Dermott's future here, really is playing the Right Side...and at this point, we have no idea if he can, or not.

He's a valuable player, and if there was no cap, you keep him for sure. Can we afford to "hope" he works out on Right Side, and be wrong? Would it be better, to find a RD, that we know will work out instead? It's a tough call.

The only way I'd be ok with it is if Pietrangelo comes here and you absolutely cannot make Dermott's money work, and that's only because I think Pietrangelo should be priority 1 on the back end as I think he's the only realistic option that can fill that hole the way it needs to be filled. If they sign some 30 year old guy for 4-5 million for 3-4 years to plug the 1D hole and move Dermott it's going to upset me. He might not work out on the right side, but you have to see if he does or not before move him and make a different bad decision to fill that hole instead. You don't just develop a guy and trade him because you have too many LD and a RD hole to fill when you've never tried to fill it with him.

Personally I'm not sure how much Muzzin will have left in him in a couple years and view Dermott as the 2 LD long term even if he doesn't work out on the right side. Unfortunately we might not have the manoeuvrability to keep him here until that time comes.

What's the plan with Sandin if he's where Dermott is in 2 years? Blocked by Muzzin needing a new contract, and we have no money. This is the development path of most defenseman. You can't just bail at this point or you'll always be bailing.

 

[Fogelhund]

Two years, $1.6 mil per... might be a measuring stick for Dermott's contract.

 

[Fogelhund]

The only way I'd be ok with it is if Pietrangelo comes here and you absolutely cannot make Dermott's money work, and that's only because I think Pietrangelo should be priority 1 on the back end as I think he's the only realistic option that can fill that hole the way it needs to be filled. If they sign some 30 year old guy for 4-5 million for 3-4 years to plug the 1D hole and move Dermott it's going to upset me. He might not work out on the right side, but you have to see if he does or not before move him and make a different bad decision to fill that hole instead. You don't just develop a guy and trade him because you have too many LD and a RD hole to fill when you've never tried to fill it with him.

Personally I'm not sure how much Muzzin will have left in him in a couple years and view Dermott as the 2 LD long term even if he doesn't work out on the right side. Unfortunately we might not have the manoeuvrability to keep him here until that time comes.

What's the plan with Sandin if he's where Dermott is in 2 years? Blocked by Muzzin needing a new contract, and we have no money. This is the development path of most defenseman. You can't just bail at this point or you'll always be bailing.

Like you say, it all depends on who we can sign, and what they cost. At least it's better to have the problem of too many decent LD, than not enough.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I don't think people WANT Dermott traded, as much as it just appears he's the odd man out, and his value could be used to acquire someone in a position of need (say a goalie, if Andersen is moved)

I get some of the logic. I just don't like it. He's our 3rd best LD, I get that, but he's also our 3rd best D period(or 4th if you think Holl's better, it's close), and we're weak back there with a bunch of holes. If he was a RW a la Kapanen, goodbye. It just feels dumb trading our 3rd best D who's 23 when we're out here looking for D. RD/LD is somewhat important, but given we've never tried him on the right side for an extended period it feels like we're overvaluing that as a fanbase.

I actually don't get the feeling Dubas is considering it at all, but I've read a lot of chatter about it from the fanbase.

 

[Magic Man]

Probably the biggest mystery of the off-season. There's a few ways this can go (in order of likelihood, IMO)

1. He signs in Europe (ala Ho-Sang) and Leafs qualify him to retain his rights, and maybe some time away will help.
2. Dubas sends him to a team like Detroit, Ottawa, Arizona that could give him an opportunity for a 4th or 5th.
3. Dubas sends him to a team for another disgruntled prospect. Perhaps Borgstrom from FLA. Andersson in NYR.
4. Dubas uses the Kapanen departure to give Bracco a "put up or shut up" opportunity on the third line.
5. Leafs don't qualify him and walk away.

You're right. It could go a number of different ways for him.

 

[Magic Man]

Two years, $1.6 mil per... might be a measuring stick for Dermott's contract.

Given how Flyers fans talk about Hagg I was wondering if he might not be qualified and if he could be had for cheap. It looks like a good contract for Philly though.

 

[X66]

Liljegren legit had a great year in the AHL, he took what he learned from his first and 2nd year, and just combined the two this season.

He's young, right handed, cheap and fits the team well.

He exactly the type of players teams would target, and exactly the type of player you need to keep.

 

[Cor]

I had forgotten Korshkov got loaned.

He has 3 points in 6 games so far in the KHL.

 

[kb]

I had forgotten Korshkov got loaned.

He has 3 points in 6 games so far in the KHL.

All 3 were in his first game. lol

 

[Morgs]

I get some of the logic. I just don't like it. He's our 3rd best LD, I get that, but he's also our 3rd best D period(or 4th if you think Holl's better, it's close), and we're weak back there with a bunch of holes. If he was a RW a la Kapanen, goodbye. It just feels dumb trading our 3rd best D who's 23 when we're out here looking for D. RD/LD is somewhat important, but given we've never tried him on the right side for an extended period it feels like we're overvaluing that as a fanbase.

I actually don't get the feeling Dubas is considering it at all, but I've read a lot of chatter about it from the fanbase.

This is exactly what I've been saying all off-season. I get he's the "odd man out" because he's left handed and we already have Rielly & Muzzin (and Lehtonen/Sandin), but he's clearly our best option for 3LD, and potentially our best option for 2RD as I think he's pretty clearly better than Holl.

He's EXACTLY what the fan base wants in a defenseman, strong defensive impact, very good puck skills, very good in transition, and not afraid to throw the body/mix it up, but because he's LH people have kind of wrote him off as a trade piece. It doesn't make sense to me unless his contract demands are insane for what he's done so far because I'd much rather keep him for ~2M or less and trade Holl regardless of what we'd get back (unless someone really wants Dermott and is willing to pay a lotttttttttttttttt).

For me his play actually makes Sandin expandable.