Player Discussion Marc Staal

[Mikos87]

Can Smith play the left side as effectively as the right? And I think Poinky and Bear play the left side.

Probably, he was on 3rd pair LHD a lot in DET. It's a faster and safer game with the lefty-righty on their strong side.

Biggest advantages are when keeping pucks in the zone, and not have to turn to your back when retrieving dump-ins.

 

[nyr2k2]

how about the rangers make Marc Staal an offer. Marc retires and the Rangers give him a job in the organization for 4 years and 5.7 M a year. Marc comes off the cap, he learns the business. Rangers have enough $$$ to do this. How about this????

Ignoring the question of whether or not this is kosher under the CBA and bylaws, I haven't seen any indication that Marc Staal no longer has the desire to play. He's only 30, I doubt he'd be willing to hang them up just to do us a solid.

 

[eco's bones]

Pionk is a right handed shot.

Gordie Clark raves about him:

https://sports.yahoo.com/prospect-neal-pionk-start-season-132855247.html

Which isn't to say that Pionk makes the team out of camp--I'm thinking Bereglazov has a better chance. Even so Pionk could turn into a really good top 4 defenseman.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

how about the rangers make Marc Staal an offer. Marc retires and the Rangers give him a job in the organization for 4 years and 5.7 M a year. Marc comes off the cap, he learns the business. Rangers have enough $$$ to do this. How about this????

Why would he want to do that?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I would be shocked if Pionk makes the team. Have to think Bereglazov, DeAngelo and Graves all come before him. Remember John Gilmour's preseason without any AHL games? He was excellent, people were clamoring for him to start in the NHL, still didn't.

Other than guys like Vesey and Hayes who they probably promised NHL spots, I don't think any four year college guys have a chance to come into the Rangers out of college and make the team right away. Maybe if we have like a really good prospect like Stepan was, but not just some random UDFA.

 

[eco's bones]

I would be shocked if Pionk makes the team. Have to think Bereglazov, DeAngelo and Graves all come before him. Remember John Gilmour's preseason without any AHL games? He was excellent, people were clamoring for him to start in the NHL, still didn't.

Other than guys like Vesey and Hayes who they probably promised NHL spots, I don't think any four year college guys have a chance to come into the Rangers out of college and make the team right away. Maybe if we have like a really good prospect like Stepan was, but not just some random UDFA.

Gilmour was a good college player who did 4 years at Providence College (a good team) and started his pro career at 23.

Pionk was a great college player who did 2 years (not 4 years) at UMD (a great team that lost to Denver U in the NCAA final for top college team)--was by far their best defenseman if not best player and is now 21 but will be 22 when the season starts.

Stepan by the way didn't play 4 years for Wisconsin. Hayes and Vesey both played 4 years and made the Rangers out of their respective first training camps.

 

[Levitate]

Probably, he was on 3rd pair LHD a lot in DET. It's a faster and safer game with the lefty-righty on their strong side.

Biggest advantages are when keeping pucks in the zone, and not have to turn to your back when retrieving dump-ins.

Pretty sure I've seen some stats that playing your handedness side isn't really a big deal, it's far more important to just pick a side and stick to it. Guys who always play the right side will be better at it even if they're left handed than righty's who play the left and then switch to the right (as if there are any of those...)

Basically, don't flip flop a guy back and forth. Some players can learn the other side quickly and some can't, but basically no one can handle swapping back and forth.

Saw that a lot last year whenever AV tried to switch Holden back to the left side after he had been playing the right. He was always out of position because his instincts were to play to the right side of the ice.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Gilmour was a good college player who did 4 years at Providence College (a good team) and started his pro career at 23.

Pionk was a great college player who did 2 years (not 4 years) at UMD (a great team that lost to Denver U in the NCAA final for top college team)--was by far their best defenseman if not best player and is now 21 but will be 22 when the season starts.

Stepan by the way didn't play 4 years for Wisconsin. Hayes and Vesey both played 4 years and made the Rangers out of their respective first training camps.

I wasn't saying Stepan played four years, my point was more about players making the NHL without playing minors first.

 

[eco's bones]

I wasn't saying Stepan played four years, my point was more about players making the NHL without playing minors first.

Well when you say people were clamoring for Gilmour to make the team out of camp last year I'm just wondering who you mean? He had an excellent camp--even so I didn't think he was ready and he had a disastrous season in Hartford. And then I'm pointing out that you shouldn't be surprised if Pionk shows he's a grade above (maybe two) Gilmour.

I think Hayes and Vesey proved they were NHL ready in their rookie seasons. Buchnevich did too--though he did play a little in Hartford pretty much for conditioning reasons.

To go back to Staal--if the Rangers don't buy him out and they don't trade Holden the point will be pretty moot whether we're talking about Pionk, Graves or Bereglazov. They'll most likely all be in Hartford--that is unless Bereglazov has an out clause and ****s off back to Magnitogorsk. And if the Rangers move Holden but still hang on to Staal--one of them might be next year's version of McIlrath/Clendening. I don't know which scenario you prefer. I prefer the one where we buy out Staal and move Holden. The cap savings from buying out Staal by the way easily pays the cap salaries of two of the three of Bereglazov, Pionk, Graves and leaves us a little extra too. We could actually pay all three and have some left over too.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Well when you say people were clamoring for Gilmour to make the team out of camp last year I'm just wondering who you mean? He had an excellent camp--even so I didn't think he was ready and he had a disastrous season in Hartford. And then I'm pointing out that you shouldn't be surprised if Pionk shows he's a grade above (maybe two) Gilmour.

I think Hayes and Vesey proved they were NHL ready in their rookie seasons. Buchnevich did too--though he did play a little in Hartford pretty much for conditioning reasons.

To go back to Staal--if the Rangers don't buy him out and they don't trade Holden the point will be pretty moot whether we're talking about Pionk, Graves or Bereglazov. They'll most likely all be in Hartford--that is unless Bereglazov has an out clause and ****s off back to Magnitogorsk. And if the Rangers move Holden but still hang on to Staal--one of them might be next year's version of McIlrath/Clendening. I don't know which scenario you prefer. I prefer the one where we buy out Staal and move Holden. The cap savings from buying out Staal by the way easily pays the cap salaries of two of the three of Bereglazov, Pionk, Graves and leaves us a little extra too. We could actually pay all three and have some left over too.

Go back and read the threads from last preseason. Some wanted him to start in the NHL. He had a good preseason, meanwhile a player like Skjei had a horrific preseason, McIlrath wasn't too good either if I remember correctly, neither had much NHL experience either, yet the guy straight from the NCAA's was the one sent to the AHL. You are probably right that Pionk is better than Gilmour, it would be hard not to, but I still think it's very unlikely he will start in the NHL, especially considering our depth.

 

[eco's bones]

Go back and read the threads from last preseason. Some wanted him to start in the NHL. He had a good preseason, meanwhile a player like Skjei had a horrific preseason, McIlrath wasn't too good either if I remember correctly, neither had much NHL experience either, yet the guy straight from the NCAA's was the one sent to the AHL. You are probably right that Pionk is better than Gilmour, it would be hard not to, but I still think it's very unlikely he will start in the NHL, especially considering our depth.

Well I don't want to go back and read them--I'm sure there were a few who wanted Gilmour and he did have a good preseason but it was all downhill from there.

Pionk was the best college free agent defenseman out there and arguably the best college free agent--so it was a big deal signing. If you look at what Pittsburgh has done the last two years--one year they bring in Sheary, the next Guentzel and next year it's going to be Aston Reese (and no it doesn't hurt to stick them on a line with either Crosby or Malkin) and don't be surprised if ZAR has as much impact as Sheary and Guentzel and he's bigger and got an edge. These signings can be big deals and the players sometimes don't need a lot of AHL time.

Pionk also might have some Dan Boyle in him. He has skills and hockey sense and an all around game. One of the problems with Gilmour is he's horrible in his own zone.

 

[Mikos87]

Pretty sure I've seen some stats that playing your handedness side isn't really a big deal, it's far more important to just pick a side and stick to it. Guys who always play the right side will be better at it even if they're left handed than righty's who play the left and then switch to the right (as if there are any of those...)

Basically, don't flip flop a guy back and forth. Some players can learn the other side quickly and some can't, but basically no one can handle swapping back and forth.

Saw that a lot last year whenever AV tried to switch Holden back to the left side after he had been playing the right. He was always out of position because his instincts were to play to the right side of the ice.

Holden isn't a positionally sound defender... regardless of his side... you saw how exposed he was in the playoffs, missing checks and sticks.

Look no further than the devils v flyers in 2012. The devils owned them that series.

Flyers had 6 LH shots... so the devils kept dumping it in on the right side d, forcing the off-wing defender to pivot both ways with his back to the puck.. they then ran the 2-1-2 hard on that side...

It's a very claustrophobic position for that D, less time and space to make a decision with the puck... and lesser vision because he has to turn to chase the puck and look both ways... the flip clear off the back-hand isn't clean and leads to penalties.

Some guys are great at it... but this is what teams do on that off-side D.

There are nuances to the game that perhaps only the eye test can see... I'll give you another example...

Star forwards don't try a carried entry versus Karlsson... watch him play... they dump it... because when Karlsson turns... he does so at near the blueline against carries... no one can take it wide against him... so they dump it and force Erik to pick it up, and they try to win the board battle.

That's cause Karlsson, on his strong side, cuts the angle with speed and pins the entry on the wall... that prevents a play from being made. So the strong side option, with a smart and elite skater works well.

Nashville did it with their top 4 all playoffs... they shut down teams that way and counter transitioned. Against defenders like that, with the sticks lined up, it forces less controlled entries. Teams have to give up the puck and get it back.

 

[Mikos87]

Go back and read the threads from last preseason. Some wanted him to start in the NHL. He had a good preseason, meanwhile a player like Skjei had a horrific preseason, McIlrath wasn't too good either if I remember correctly, neither had much NHL experience either, yet the guy straight from the NCAA's was the one sent to the AHL. You are probably right that Pionk is better than Gilmour, it would be hard not to, but I still think it's very unlikely he will start in the NHL, especially considering our depth.

He did, and played well, before flaming out hard down in HFD.

His game offensive blue-line in is not bad.. the rest of it sucks. He's a Hyandai Sonata when it comes to acceleration when he needs to be at least a mustang to play his game in the NHL.

Guys got a crafty shot though. Low heavy, creates rebounds.

 

[free0717]

Why would he want to do that?

Because JG can send him home and just send him a check. He is dead cap space walking anyway. I really dont like talking S**t about this player because he has been a warrior for this team. But, Staal is done

 

[Larrybiv]

Because JG can send him home and just send him a check. He is dead cap space walking anyway. I really dont like talking S**t about this player because he has been a warrior for this team. But, Staal is done

Yup. Thanks
But there is always that small chance he has a strong off season and plays much better this year.

He cannot be happy the way he played, if it's ALL physical {can't see properly) of too many knocks on the noggin that have hindered his physical play......well then, I guess he gets a pass on the ice........but wouldn't that perpetuate him hanging them up?

 

[offdacrossbar]

pionk is a nice looking prospect. hell need a year to marinate though. the A will help him there plus hes an offensive righyt and those guys are valuable. i like this kid alot. he's just not ready yet and theres no room either.

bereglazov is ready now. he's a nice 3rd pair option and gives us a steady responsible defensive guy who can play dependable minutes. he's your 7th guy right off the bat unless he looks miserable in camp.

after that, its any ones guess. once camp starts, there will be guys playing for jobs on that last pair.

i can see holden moved, that leaves marc staal and ADA as the 3rd pair. im not unhappy with that pair as long as bereglazov plays alot and staal gets frequent days off.

injures happen. its nice to have 7 quality dmen that can all play.

i just dont see graves as having a chance this season.

 

[Edge]

how about the rangers make Marc Staal an offer. Marc retires and the Rangers give him a job in the organization for 4 years and 5.7 M a year. Marc comes off the cap, he learns the business. Rangers have enough $$$ to do this. How about this????

I wish. Unfortunately, even if it were a realistic option, the League would crucify the Rangers.

 

[Edge]

pionk is a nice looking prospect. hell need a year to marinate though. the A will help him there plus hes an offensive righyt and those guys are valuable. i like this kid alot. he's just not ready yet and theres no room either.

bereglazov is ready now. he's a nice 3rd pair option and gives us a steady responsible defensive guy who can play dependable minutes. he's your 7th guy right off the bat unless he looks miserable in camp.

after that, its any ones guess. once camp starts, there will be guys playing for jobs on that last pair.

i can see holden moved, that leaves marc staal and ADA as the 3rd pair. im not unhappy with that pair as long as bereglazov plays alot and staal gets frequent days off.

injures happen. its nice to have 7 quality dmen that can all play.

i just dont see graves as having a chance this season.

I'll be surprised if Pionk makes the straight jump. Truth be told, I'm really not sure Bereglazov doesn't go down to Hartford as well.

Right now, I don't see the team moving Holden until they are absolutely convinced that DeAngelo is going to play every day and that guys like Pionk, Bereglazov and even Graves are capable of filling in.

While there's certainly promise with this group of young defenseman, there's also the risk of a serious experience vacuum. If they moved Holden, this team is only one injury away from having half its defensive corps playing with less than 90 games of NHL experience each. You'd be talking about two sophmores - including one with only half a season of NHL experience, and a rookie.

That's a pretty tall order.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Because JG can send him home and just send him a check. He is dead cap space walking anyway. I really dont like talking S**t about this player because he has been a warrior for this team. But, Staal is done

I asked why would he do that, not why the Rangers would.

 

[Levitate]

Holden isn't a positionally sound defender... regardless of his side... you saw how exposed he was in the playoffs, missing checks and sticks.

Look no further than the devils v flyers in 2012. The devils owned them that series.

Flyers had 6 LH shots... so the devils kept dumping it in on the right side d, forcing the off-wing defender to pivot both ways with his back to the puck.. they then ran the 2-1-2 hard on that side...

It's a very claustrophobic position for that D, less time and space to make a decision with the puck... and lesser vision because he has to turn to chase the puck and look both ways... the flip clear off the back-hand isn't clean and leads to penalties.

Some guys are great at it... but this is what teams do on that off-side D.

There are nuances to the game that perhaps only the eye test can see... I'll give you another example...

Star forwards don't try a carried entry versus Karlsson... watch him play... they dump it... because when Karlsson turns... he does so at near the blueline against carries... no one can take it wide against him... so they dump it and force Erik to pick it up, and they try to win the board battle.

That's cause Karlsson, on his strong side, cuts the angle with speed and pins the entry on the wall... that prevents a play from being made. So the strong side option, with a smart and elite skater works well.

Nashville did it with their top 4 all playoffs... they shut down teams that way and counter transitioned. Against defenders like that, with the sticks lined up, it forces less controlled entries. Teams have to give up the puck and get it back.

I think the point is that a good LHD playing on the right side is better than a bad RHD playing on the right side, assuming that LHD is used to playing the right

Don't load up on bad RHD because you can't find any good ones and ignore good LHD that can play the right side.

 

[McRanger]

I'll be surprised if Pionk makes the straight jump. Truth be told, I'm really not sure Bereglazov doesn't go down to Hartford as well.

Right now, I don't see the team moving Holden until they are absolutely convinced that DeAngelo is going to play every day and that guys like Pionk, Bereglazov and even Graves are capable of filling in.

While there's certainly promise with this group of young defenseman, there's also the risk of a serious experience vacuum. If they moved Holden, this team is only one injury away from having half its defensive corps playing with less than 90 games of NHL experience each. You'd be talking about two sophmores - including one with only half a season of NHL experience, and a rookie.

That's a pretty tall order.

It is.

But it's also likely better than the D group we started last year with.

 

[free0717]

[/I][/B]
Yup. Thanks
But there is always that small chance he has a strong off season and plays much better this year.

He cannot be happy the way he played, if it's ALL physical {can't see properly) of too many knocks on the noggin that have hindered his physical play......well then, I guess he gets a pass on the ice........but wouldn't that perpetuate him hanging them up?

Staal has 5.7M bucks per year for the next four years(actually a little less due to front loading) but he will never get that payday for the rest of his life. Staal would never walk away from that.

 

[free0717]

I asked why would he do that, not why the Rangers would.

Like I said, Because JG can. If you give Staal his money, would he rather scout or coach or just stay at home. And what does Staal do after that, work on the Sod Farm? If Staal plays ball, he can set up his 2nd career.

 

[nyr2k2]

Like I said, Because JG can. If you give Staal his money, would he rather scout or coach or just stay at home. And what does Staal do after that, work on the Sod Farm? If Staal plays ball, he can set up his 2nd career.

Staal will have no problem establishing a second career, if he even wants one.

I don't know why you keep pushing this scenario. It's obviously not going to happen and probably isn't even permissible.

 

[Edge]

It is.

But it's also likely better than the D group we started last year with.

I agree.

Of course, one of the inherent risks when building a defense in today's NHL is that leaks can spring up pretty quickly.

As we've seen with Staal, Girardi and even Klein, a guy who isn't a concern one season can become a buyout candidate or a retiree pretty quickly in this time of transition in the NHL.