Marc Bergevin: We want to compete Edition

[Lshap]

There's only a small minority in AI research who actually understand the need to concentrate on consciousness rather than 'intelligence'. No matter the intricacies and complexity of the algorithms, those will remain glorified probability machines and calculators and will remain far from a singularity, far from self-awareness. Calculation is not intelligence. My calculator has me beat by a light year when it comes to calculus, but it has zero intelligence.

I wonder about that. Isn't intelligence a contextual thing? If the only context is sitting at a desk and calculating, then yes, that AI machine is more intelligent than you. Same with regurgitating information or predicting events based on analytics -- if that's the test, machines have us beat. Wouldn't machines also have the edge in two of the standard IQ pillars, math and spatial relationships? No subjectivity there. Just make the parts fit properly.

Machines calculate, measure, replicate, see, and hear better than us. Humans are better builders, creators, and communicators. Which intelligence is higher? Depends where you are when you ask the question. AI is a fish out of water if we expect it to improve on Anna Karenina, Facebook, the US constitution, or Abbey Road. But if you want to explore, analyze, and survive, AI will do it better, longer and farther than us. Maybe that represents a lower form of intelligence than ours, or maybe that's our human-centric bias of what intelligence is supposed to be.

One last argument versus the prevailing concensus in AI research, and it's a big one:

In the animal kingdom, especially and almost exclusively among mammalians, the few rare races who display self-awareness (the rouge tests and other similar experiments) are also the ones with the highest empathic response and complexe sociality. Elephants, chimps & bonobos, cetacean and the corvid family.

There is no greater complex sociality than with the most intelligent of mammals, us.

You have to differentiate yourself from others and from your environment to be self-aware. That's why empathy and sociality are key, and why so much research is gonna be wasted with the wrong idea as the starting point.

High levels of problem solving and learning didn't start with tool use. It increased as our social minds increased. Theory of mind is where it all strated.

Without senses and sociality, all we'll have are more complex systems of control/capacities/automation, and the code lines will forever be limited to the boundaries of it's scope, like cobra commander said, but put differently.

I'd guess sociability is linked to building & creating because we need social cooperation to build the stuff we create, and then we need social agreement to disseminate it. Kind of a chicken & egg situation: Are we intelligent because we have social empathy, or is social empathy simply a medium to manifest intelligence?

Huge caveat to this reply: I'm just riffing on your excellent post, so apologies if there's a crater in my logic. I have no professional basis for my opinions and I haven't slept well, but it's a very cool topic...

 

[yianik]

Terminator is one of most important and prophetic movies in human history. Skynet is not a matter of if, but when...

GET OUT!

 

[Cobra Commander]

I'm a cybernetic organism, my CPU is a neuronetic processor.. a learning computer. The more i interact with humans the more i learn.

But too much human interaction can make me malfunction as well..

 

[LaP]

I wonder about that. Isn't intelligence a contextual thing? If the only context is sitting at a desk and calculating, then yes, that AI machine is more intelligent than you. Same with regurgitating information or predicting events based on analytics -- if that's the test, machines have us beat. Wouldn't machines also have the edge in two of the standard IQ pillars, math and spatial relationships? No subjectivity there. Just make the parts fit properly.

Machines calculate, measure, replicate, see, and hear better than us. Humans are better builders, creators, and communicators. Which intelligence is higher? Depends where you are when you ask the question. AI is a fish out of water if we expect it to improve on Anna Karenina, Facebook, the US constitution, or Abbey Road. But if you want to explore, analyze, and survive, AI will do it better, longer and farther than us. Maybe that represents a lower form of intelligence than ours, or maybe that's our human-centric bias of what intelligence is supposed to be.

They already do. The reason they are not used more is mostly because of the cost (they cost a lot to develop, they can't run on a normal computers and well they steal jobs ...). An AI is already better at analyzing scans. The AI can work 24/7, will perform as well the 24th hour of the 7th days as the first hour of the first day. It can already detects cancer at an earlier state than humans. But money rules the world. Of course detecting cancer from scans or playing chess are very specific use cases but many other use cases could be added. It's not far fetched to think one day a computer will be able to create his own algorithms (called automatic machine learning) to analyze his own knowledge base and add to this knowledge base based on his failures and successes and the "analog" input it receives from humans.

I don't think it matters much what intelligence really is. A computer will never exactly work like a brain. Saying a computer is less because it doesn't work like a brain is a Bergevism. Thinking Subban is not worthy cause he doesn't play the right way (it's the Bergevin thread after all i had to talk about him ). What really matters is results. If the computer can perform better at a particular task than you then it doesn't really matter how it does it specially in the medical field.

Will computers one day be able to create? Who knows? Creating requires experience and the ability to learn. I've never seen a baby draw something or compose a song. As long as AI will be tailored to work on one use case only and wont be able to add to their own knowledge base (creating a unique one) and work on their own algorithms (creating unique ones) then they'll be dumb genius. But once a computer will be able to add to his knowledge base and create his own algorithms then we don't really know what will happen. We can only try to guess. But such computers will be very dangerous if they have an artificial body. As dangerous as humans

 

[waffledave]

Pandora's box anyone ?

It's actually staggering. Too big for my brain, but the discussions will be on a never before reached scale. The examples you gave.

A welder loses an arm and you replace it. Ok. A pitcher loses an arm and replaces it and can throw a 130 mph fastball . Can he play ? No ? Is that discrimination ? What if he chooses to replace his arm ?

What about the government requiring everyone to have some kind of brain chip inserted to curb violent behaviour, which is turned off if you are in the police, military etc. No doubt this would be called for by many of the public?

It would be foolish of me to go on because the what ifs are endless.

Unfortunately even if the right decisions are made by the biggest of powers, which would surprise me, being humans, there will always be those who will still go ahead.

It gets even worse if you really go in deep. With nanotechnology progressing the way it is, imagine tiny robots the size of cells. I mean... really all we are is a collection of cells. Everything that makes you "you" is just a collection of cells and some chemical reactions between them. Your memories, consciousness, feelings, etc... are just a bunch of cells interacting with each other.

But what happens when we replace those cells (which age, die, get damaged, get sick, etc...) with robots? Are you still the same person?

It's really wild stuff.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I wonder about that. Isn't intelligence a contextual thing? If the only context is sitting at a desk and calculating, then yes, that AI machine is more intelligent than you. Same with regurgitating information or predicting events based on analytics -- if that's the test, machines have us beat. Wouldn't machines also have the edge in two of the standard IQ pillars, math and spatial relationships? No subjectivity there. Just make the parts fit properly.

Machines calculate, measure, replicate, see, and hear better than us. Humans are better builders, creators, and communicators. Which intelligence is higher? Depends where you are when you ask the question. AI is a fish out of water if we expect it to improve on Anna Karenina, Facebook, the US constitution, or Abbey Road. But if you want to explore, analyze, and survive, AI will do it better, longer and farther than us. Maybe that represents a lower form of intelligence than ours, or maybe that's our human-centric bias of what intelligence is supposed to be.


I'd guess sociability is linked to building & creating because we need social cooperation to build the stuff we create, and then we need social agreement to disseminate it. Kind of a chicken & egg situation: Are we intelligent because we have social empathy, or is social empathy simply a medium to manifest intelligence?

Huge caveat to this reply: I'm just riffing on your excellent post, so apologies if there's a crater in my logic. I have no professional basis for my opinions and I haven't slept well, but it's a very cool topic...

Imo, creativity is the highest form of intelligence. It uses the most parts in the brain compared to any other capacity, except maybe for sociality. It is highly intuitive, but also uses our rational, relational, comparative, language and spatial capacities, among others.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It gets even worse if you really go in deep. With nanotechnology progressing the way it is, imagine tiny robots the size of cells. I mean... really all we are is a collection of cells. Everything that makes you "you" is just a collection of cells and some chemical reactions between them. Your memories, consciousness, feelings, etc... are just a bunch of cells interacting with each other.

But what happens when we replace those cells (which age, die, get damaged, get sick, etc...) with robots? Are you still the same person?

It's really wild stuff.

You become John Connor

 

[smirob]

Billboard idea:

list of all of the horrible quotes from MB.

#noexcuses #dontdrinkmolson

 

[JohnLennon]

Billboard idea:

list of all of the horrible quotes from MB.

#noexcuses #dontdrinkmolson

I know you're joking, but man am I glad the billboard we are working on putting up is a positive message about our love for the team and its players, as opposed to one of negativity and demanding a member of the team be fired/traded/etc. Just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Cobra Commander]

I know you're joking, but man am I glad the billboard we are working on putting up is a positive message about our love for the team and its players, as opposed to one of negativity and demanding a member of the team be fired/traded/etc. Just doesn't sit right with me.

I don't think he's joking. We all want to start the healing process, once he is gone.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I know this is still gonna be OT, but please indulge me as these are the (loyal) dog days of summer on HF.

One thing that scares me ****less for our future, much more so than self-aware AI, are killer robots, controlled by humans. The thought is almost comical. The mad genius, or rather in our reality, the mad financer who uses geniuses to create an army of robots to take over the world. Imagine Animatrix's Second Renaissance, but with humans controlling the machines and bending the knee of all world governments.

It's seems so far fetched, yet the very real possibility of using robots for power games is alarming. We need to start legislating against this, like, yesterday.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I know you're joking, but man am I glad the billboard we are working on putting up is a positive message about our love for the team and its players, as opposed to one of negativity and demanding a member of the team be fired/traded/etc. Just doesn't sit right with me.

What doesn't sit right with me is the incredible downgrade in talent and poor decisions we've had to endure over the past two years.

Funny how you associate it to asking a player to be traded. As if management and players are tge same.

As if they are all sacrosanct.

Above reproach.

You know what doesn't sit right with me?

Complacency

 

[Cobra Commander]

I know this is still gonna be OT, but please indulge me as these are the (loyal) dog days of summer on HF.

One thing that scares me ****less for our future, much more so than self-aware AI, are killer robots, controlled by humans. The thought is almost comical. The mad genius, or rather in our reality, the mad financer who uses geniuses to create an army of robots to take over the world. Imagine Animatrix's Second Renaissance, but with humans controlling the machines and bending the knee of all world governments.

It's seems so far fetched, yet the very real possibility of using robots for power games is alarming. We need to start legislating against this, like, yesterday.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

View attachment 131145

There's no fate but what we make for ourselves

 

[waffledave]

I know this is still gonna be OT, but please indulge me as these are the (loyal) dog days of summer on HF.

One thing that scares me ****less for our future, much more so than self-aware AI, are killer robots, controlled by humans. The thought is almost comical. The mad genius, or rather in our reality, the mad financer who uses geniuses to create an army of robots to take over the world. Imagine Animatrix's Second Renaissance, but with humans controlling the machines and bending the knee of all world governments.

It's seems so far fetched, yet the very real possibility of using robots for power games is alarming. We need to start legislating against this, like, yesterday.

We basically already see this with drone strikes. It's completely insane that they are a thing and most drone strikes are clandestine attacks we never hear about. But in some parts of the world entire villages are being wiped out by drone strikes.

 

[smirob]

I’m actually not joking about a billboard.

People are fed up with the management. I don’t really think Molson cares all that much if he’s making money. Our best tool of voicing our displeasure is to stop spending money on the team, tickets, jerseys etc. Just because you stop financially supporting the team doesn’t mean you don’t support its players.

And yes. I think a creative billboard would send a message that we aren’t happy with the status quo

 

[JohnLennon]

I don't think he's joking. We all want to start the healing process, once he is gone.

That's fair, but I really don't think fans paying for a billboard would make a difference at all.

What doesn't sit right with me is the incredible downgrade in talent and poor decisions we've had to endure over the past two years.

Funny how you associate it to asking a player to be traded. As if management and players are tge same.

As if they are all sacrosanct.

Above reproach.

You know what doesn't sit right with me?

Complacency

When it comes to complaining on a billboard, they ARE the same, in my opinion - nothing will get done anyways. All it does is create a more negative atmosphere surrounding the team.

Didn't Ottawa already try a #MelnykOut billboard? What happened? Hoffman traded away, Karlsson still on the block. Melnyk still there. Nothing changed, just more negativity piling onto the franchise. I don't think Molson would care about what a handful of fans paid to put on a billboard. To me, it just seems petty.

If people are upset with Bergevin, that's fine, don't support the team. Don't buy tickets. But paying to complain on a billboard? Not sure it has the effect people think it does.

If the fans pay for a billboard showing love for their players, that is a stark contrast to the negativity of #MelnykOut. It makes Montreal look good. Just my opinion man!

 

[David Suzuki]

I’m actually not joking about a billboard.

People are fed up with the management. I don’t really think Molson cares all that much if he’s making money. Our best tool of voicing our displeasure is to stop spending money on the team, tickets, jerseys etc. Just because you stop financially supporting the team doesn’t mean you don’t support its players.

And yes. I think a creative billboard would send a message that we aren’t happy with the status quo

Bring banners to games like Arsenal supporters did.

 

[Forum93]

Billboard idea:

list of all of the horrible quotes from MB.

#noexcuses #dontdrinkmolson

I love that to happen, but I don't think it would fit in a standard billboard.

 

[habsgirl5000]

I’m actually not joking about a billboard.

People are fed up with the management. I don’t really think Molson cares all that much if he’s making money. Our best tool of voicing our displeasure is to stop spending money on the team, tickets, jerseys etc. Just because you stop financially supporting the team doesn’t mean you don’t support its players.

And yes. I think a creative billboard would send a message that we aren’t happy with the status quo

if you have money to burn, please donate it to a charity of your choice, give it to homeless, etc etc....they are far more important then a sports team

 

[Bryson]

I’m actually not joking about a billboard.

People are fed up with the management. I don’t really think Molson cares all that much if he’s making money. Our best tool of voicing our displeasure is to stop spending money on the team, tickets, jerseys etc. Just because you stop financially supporting the team doesn’t mean you don’t support its players.

And yes. I think a creative billboard would send a message that we aren’t happy with the status quo

if you have money to burn, please donate it to a charity of your choice, give it to homeless, etc etc....they are far more important then a sports team

Ottawa put up four billboards recently to get rid of the team's owner... it didn't do a damn thing. If Molson already doesn't care then putting up billboards isn't going to change anything and if he doesn't already know that fans are upset then he's in the wrong business.

That's why he keeps talking about hotdogs and fan experience instead of bringing a stanley cup to montreal because he knows that bergevin can't do that.

 

[ArtPeur]

Bring banners to games like Arsenal supporters did.

I believe it's easier for foot games, the cameramen always shoot fans all game long, especially the ultra fans. Meanwhile, at hockey games, they will only show the guys who have RDS written on their cardboards.

I mean... the Montreal Ultras once had a banner that said "De Sanctis décalisse" and he was "removed" from his position 1 month later or so

Edit. I remember that a fan who was voicing his displeasure from his team's management last year (not Montreal) and was asked to remove his sign (and he had to leave?)

 

[David Suzuki]

I believe it's easier for foot games, the cameramen always shoot fans all game long, especially the ultra fans. Meanwhile, at hockey games, they will only show the guys who have RDS written on their cardboards.

I mean... the Montreal Ultras once had a banner that said "De Sanctis décalisse" and he was "removed" from his position 1 month later or so

Edit. I remember that a fan who was voicing his displeasure from his team's management last year (not Montreal) and was asked to remove his sign (and he had to leave?)

Yeah that is a good point. Guess someone is gonna have to jump on the ice and take one for the team.

 

[smirob]

Bring banners to games like Arsenal supporters did.

Joke would be on me because it requires I buy a ticket

I love that to happen, but I don't think it would fit in a standard billboard.

I guess it loses its impact with 10 point don’t

if you have money to burn, please donate it to a charity of your choice, give it to homeless, etc etc....they are far more important then a sports team

You can do both, and spending money on tickets is the equivalent of burning it next season lets be honest

 

[Miller Time]

Ottawa put up four billboards recently to get rid of the team's owner... it didn't do a damn thing. If Molson already doesn't care then putting up billboards isn't going to change anything and if he doesn't already know that fans are upset then he's in the wrong business.

That's why he keeps talking about hotdogs and fan experience instead of bringing a stanley cup to montreal because he knows that bergevin can't do that.

I don't think you can compare the Melnyk situation in Ottawa to Molson in Montreal...

Melnyk has no real ties to the city, wasn't raised there, doesn't live there, has no family or reputation connection to the Sens beyond a business one & his name has no ties to his business.

I suspect billboards going up in Montreal saying "MOLSON OUT" would have a considerably different impact on Geoff Molson the person, the Molson family & the Molson business interests...

In our situation, I'd bet that it would have far more impact than in most other markets... We'd see a very quick response, not necessarily a positive one born out of panic as it would be, but I highly doubt Molson would brush it off as readily & easily as Melnyk could.