Marc Bergevin: Redemption Song Part 19

[aresknights]

No, other teams likely didn't view Drouin highly and fellow Eastern teams would have waited until his value was peanuts. Bergevin's valuation was a French Barzal, as shown by Drouin slotting into CENTER after the acquisition and being immediately re-signed.

You talk to the other 29 teams and no what his value was then?
Opinion.
And mine is based on Tampa Bays recent history if that deal isn't made they would acquired a 3/4 D (was a 5/6 D at first because of age)
French Barzal, is that what MB said? If so odd. Or are you just making stuff up?

 

[Schooner Guy]

The Leafs do not need an overhaul. Marner and Matthews need to play a bit differently. They got cocky early on, laughing in scrums, clearly taking us lightly and they got burnt for it.
The Leafs without Tavares is also a very different one. It's much easier to shut them down when it's that one power line up front, if they also had Tavares manning the other line, I don't think we beat them.

They just need some tweaking as well.

The Islanders without Tavares are also a very different team. They're a better one.

 

[FormerLurker]

Leafs personify tinker bell hockey, even TBay realized they needed the nastiness of Coleman, Goodrow & Maroon, which was the philosophical vision of Brisebois vs Stevie Y. They haven’t looked back since

I don’t see Dubas implementing a dose of nastiness in the Leafs regular lineup...that’s just not his philosophy - they don’t draft those types, don’t sign those types and have no prospect in that mold

Well that ain't true. Dubas added both Simmonds and Foligno in recognition that he needed more grit in his lineup. You can certainly question the effectiveness of those additions, but you can't say that it's not in the Dubas philosophy to add nastiness to his lineup.

 

[salbutera]

Well that ain't true. Dubas added both Simmonds and Foligno in recognition that he needed more grit in his lineup. You can certainly question the effectiveness of those additions, but you can't say that it's not in the Dubas philosophy to add nastiness to his lineup.

I think those were forced moves by Shanahan. Dubas’ drafting IMO is a view into his mind, they’ve been very consistent in going after undersized skill, while avoiding grit based types

 

[MakeTheGoalsLarger]

there’s no way we’re in the finals without Tavares going down and muzzin coming out. I just don’t believe it. Lady Luck has been our friend so far, and the habs also seem confident. They’re clicking and playing well, but things have gone their way.

When fleury mishandled the puck, and then won in ot, the knights never looked the same. Will need similar bounces against Tampa.

Yeah they got some luck. It makes up for the countless fluke deflected shots that led to goals in the Flyers series last year. Luck can't always be on the other team's side.

 

[BLONG7]

Armia is on COVID protocol.

What??????????????????

 

[Frenchy]

What??????????????????

Armia in COVID-19 protocol

 

[SirClintonPortis]

You talk to the other 29 teams and no what his value was then?
Opinion.
And mine is based on Tampa Bays recent history if that deal isn't made they would acquired a 3/4 D (was a 5/6 D at first because of age)
French Barzal, is that what MB said? If so odd. Or are you just making stuff up?

Pretty clear no else put in a bid based on the value of the assets. Top D prospects command another top D prospect or top C prospect. Wingers in general are the least impactful assets on the team and will always have less value than a Dman. The Dmen can affect every line and a team of shit forwards and loaded D corps are always in the hunt for a wildcard but not the other way around; Shea Weber was part of such a configuration. The Winger can only affect one line and unless his name is Ovechkin, Iginla...that's not a lot. But Marc did not just value Sergachev low. He also valued Drouin as not a LW prospect but a C prospect.

You name the hot D prospect these mythical other teams would have paid for Drouin or you can go home.

Drouin being placed at center is a record of fact. No amount of foolish sophistry on your part is going to change that. Mr. "Irrelevant". There is nothing irrelevant about a Dman logging 22 minutes a night for the team we need to battle for the Cup. Who, also beat Shea Weber in a fight.

Tampa needed Sergachev so badly in the pros they literally burned up a year off his ELC and let Montreal keep the conditional second rounder.

Defensemen have a consistent progression in which the 18-22 years are not to be held against them. Erik Karlsson wasn't even in the league 18-20 and he developed.

 

[BLONG7]

Pretty clear no else put in a bid based on the value of the assets. Top D prospects command another top D prospect or top C prospect. Wingers in general are the least impactful assets on the team and will always have less value than a Dman. The Dmen can affect every line and a team of shit forwards and loaded D corps are always in the hunt for a wildcard but not the other way around; Shea Weber was part of such a configuration. The Winger can only affect one line and unless his name is Ovechkin, Iginla...that's not a lot. But Marc did not just value Sergachev low. He also valued Drouin as not a LW prospect but a C prospect.

You name the hot D prospect these mythical other teams would have paid for Drouin or you can go home.

Drouin being placed at center is a record of fact. No amount of foolish sophistry on your part is going to change that. Mr. "Irrelevant". There is nothing irrelevant about a Dman logging 22 minutes a night for the team we need to battle for the Cup. Who, also beat Shea Weber in a fight.

Tampa needed Sergachev so badly in the pros they literally burned up a year off his ELC and let Montreal keep the conditional second rounder.

Defensemen have a consistent progression in which the 18-22 years are not to be held against them. Erik Karlsson wasn't even in the league 18-20 and he developed.

This was beyond a bad move, from the GM who always wins his trades..................
Let's hope the Habs continue to play great, with the addition by subtraction rule!!

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Its too bad Drouin isn't around to play against Sergachev. Would be quite the stamp on that trade.

 

[aresknights]

Pretty clear no else put in a bid based on the value of the assets. Top D prospects command another top D prospect or top C prospect. Wingers in general are the least impactful assets on the team and will always have less value than a Dman. The Dmen can affect every line and a team of shit forwards and loaded D corps are always in the hunt for a wildcard but not the other way around; Shea Weber was part of such a configuration. The Winger can only affect one line and unless his name is Ovechkin, Iginla...that's not a lot. But Marc did not just value Sergachev low. He also valued Drouin as not a LW prospect but a C prospect.

You name the hot D prospect these mythical other teams would have paid for Drouin or you can go home.

Drouin being placed at center is a record of fact. No amount of foolish sophistry on your part is going to change that. Mr. "Irrelevant". There is nothing irrelevant about a Dman logging 22 minutes a night for the team we need to battle for the Cup. Who, also beat Shea Weber in a fight.

Tampa needed Sergachev so badly in the pros they literally burned up a year off his ELC and let Montreal keep the conditional second rounder.

Defensemen have a consistent progression in which the 18-22 years are not to be held against them. Erik Karlsson wasn't even in the league 18-20 and he developed.

Foolish Sophistry......fancy wording, feel smarter lol?
Well since you got it all figured out.....
How did this comvo start again? Oh ya just looked and my point was without the trade Tampa would filled that spot so ya its irrelevant to me. Serg isn't here. Druoin isn't here.
I'll cheer for the players we got.

 

[Archijerej]

The Leafs do not need an overhaul. Marner and Matthews need to play a bit differently. They got cocky early on, laughing in scrums, clearly taking us lightly and they got burnt for it.
The Leafs without Tavares is also a very different one. It's much easier to shut them down when it's that one power line up front, if they also had Tavares manning the other line, I don't think we beat them.

They just need some tweaking as well.

It's not about Tavares. Yes, with him in the lineup they would likely eliminate us. But it is is not a team to go far in the playoffs. They are just flawed on too many levels and don't have the room to maneuver in order to change their make up significantly.

Observing Dubas at work has been a joy for me as a Habs fan. I expected a decade of frustration facing them on a regular basis. Now I'm convinced they screwed up their rebuild and are going nowhere.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Foolish Sophistry......fancy wording, feel smarter lol?
Well since you hot it all figured out.....
How did this comvo start again? Oh ya just looked and my point was without the trade Tampa would filled that spot so ya its irrelevant to me. Serg isn't here. Druoin isn't here.
I'll cheer for the players we got.

It isn't irrelevant because the quality of player in his spot and below would be worse. Luke Schenn being a regular would be quite significant. Having Cernak and Savard log more minutes also matters.

 

[teamfirst]

Foolish Sophistry......fancy wording, feel smarter lol?
Well since you hot it all figured out.....
How did this comvo start again? Oh ya just looked and my point was without the trade Tampa would filled that spot so ya its irrelevant to me. Serg isn't here. Druoin isn't here.
I'll cheer for the players we got.

Thanks, almost spit my coffee there

 

[417]

It's not about Tavares. Yes, with him in the lineup they would likely eliminate us. But it is is not a team to go far in the playoffs. They are just flawed on too many levels and don't have the room to maneuver in order to change their make up significantly.

Observing Dubas at work has been a joy for me as a Habs fan. I expected a decade of frustration facing them on a regular basis. Now I'm convinced they screwed up their rebuild and are going nowhere.

The Leafs got greedy with Tavares...I get it, hometown star becomes a free agent and desperately wants to sign with the Leafs. Its hard to imagine a scenario where they say "no thanks Tavares".

That being said, they didn't need Tavares and the contract he signed just made Dubas job way more difficult.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

The Islanders without Tavares are also a very different team. They're a better one.

The proof hockey is a team sport and winning is not a matter of stars but team effort and system. Of course skilled players help but hockey is not basketball.

 

[aresknights]

It isn't irrelevant because the quality of player in his spot and below would be worse. Luke Schenn being a regular would be quite significant. Having Cernak and Savard log more minutes also matters.

Ok this is going in too many directions. A Weber fight, value of a young D, other D......not what my original response was about so if it'll help.....
Sure it's super duper relevant.

 

[Archijerej]

The Leafs got greedy with Tavares...I get it, hometown star becomes a free agent and desperately wants to sign with the Leafs. Its hard to imagine a scenario where they say "no thanks Tavares".

That being said, they didn't need Tavares and the contract he signed just made Dubas job way more difficult.

That's the crux of the problem. They were perfectly fine at center, with up and coming Matthews and Kadri on a sweetheart deal. They had arguably the deepest forward group in the NHL in terms of skill. They had one of the best men in the business in the GM's chair.

All they had to do is to patiently add to their D and bring in players with proven playoff record. At the same time, Lamoriello would have enforced a healthy culture on and off the ice, if necessary by trading one of their young stars the moment they went out of line.

Tavares' salary gave them every excuse to ask for the moon and of course the Google Boy couldn't help himself. And then he went and thrown money at them as well.

 

[Runner77]

The proof hockey is a team sport and winning is not a matter of stars but team effort and system. Of course skilled players help but hockey is not basketball.

To a point. It still matters to get your skilled players at the most valuable positions. C and first pairing D and build from there — I don’t believe that axiom has changed.

 

[salbutera]

To a point. It still matters to get your skilled players at the most valuable positions. C and first pairing D and build from there — I don’t believe that axiom has changed.

Agreed but individual skill without team depth will not lead to playoff success.

Gord Miller puts it best IMO, based on what he’s been told by GMs: “playoffs are not about out scoring the opposition, it’s about keeping the opposition from scoring less than you”

Sounds like semantics but it’s the mindset required, all coaches game plan to shutdown top-2 lines, which is why bottom-2 lines are so important in the NHL playoffs as the differentiator

 

[Runner77]

Agreed but individual skill without team depth will not lead to playoff success.

Gord Miller puts it best IMO, based on what he’s been told by GMs: “playoffs are not about out scoring the opposition, it’s about keeping the opposition from scoring less than you”

Sounds like semantics but it’s the mindset required, all coaches game plan to shutdown top-2 lines, which is why bottom-2 lines are so important in the NHL playoffs as the differentiator

All NHL coaches are cut from the same cloth when it comes to shutdown players. They all want and need them, even if they don't always deploy them the same way.

Those teams that were lucky enough to have been in a position to draft generational or elite type players are in a whole other stratosphere -- they're stuck with a handful of players making a ton of money but they also end up double shifting them and using them on special teams, probably as a means of making up for not being able to afford better players in their middle six group.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

All NHL coaches are cut from the same cloth when it comes to shutdown players. They all want and need them, even if they don't always deploy them the same way.

Those teams that were lucky enough to have been in a position to draft generational or elite type players are in a whole other stratosphere -- they're stuck with a handful of players making a ton of money but they also end up double shifting them and using them on special teams, probably as a means of making up for not being able to afford better players in their middle six group.

That's one or the other. Habs are in the other, the well balanced team. One shut down line followed by lines who could score while keeping the opposite lines low scoring. That's 3-2 wins most of the time, boring for some fans (like Leafs) but who complain about winning at the end of the day?

 

[teamfirst]

«JE POURRAIS PRENDRE MA RETRAITE APRÈS» - BERGEVIN




From TVA sport .....Tought this would please some around here

 

[Kriss E]

Leafs personify tinker bell hockey, even TBay realized they needed the nastiness of Coleman, Goodrow & Maroon, which was the philosophical vision of Brisebois vs Stevie Y. They haven’t looked back since

I don’t see Dubas implementing a dose of nastiness in the Leafs regular lineup...that’s just not his philosophy - they don’t draft those types, don’t sign those types and have no prospect in that mold

Hmm..I disagree. I think Dubas recognized this and targeted players. Holl, Simmonds, Bogosian, Foligno, even Muzzin...Seems to me like the Leafs definitely tried to get players who can be difficult to play against. It just didn't work out for them.

 

[jackeymoon]

Hmm..I disagree. I think Dubas recognized this and targeted players. Holl, Simmonds, Bogosian, Foligno, even Muzzin...Seems to me like the Leafs definitely tried to get players who can be difficult to play against. It just didn't work out for them.

Dubas is in over his head. A 1st for a 4th liner should be a great reason for anyone to get the boot imo