Marc Bergevin: Even a broken clock is right twice a day Edition

[bobholly39]

Ideally, this team needs a few things...

- Tkachuk type. Size/Strength/Skill and average skating. We need guys that can win puck battles and can put the puck in the net. This frees up space for some of the smurfs on our roster
- A Juulsen type on LD. I know a PMD is valuable and ideal but lets start with a shutdown type with good overall game. Price needs this
- Panarin type won't hurt the PP IMO. Our PP lacks puck possession guys and goal scorers.

We need more talent, in a nutshell. Looking for positional needs is one way but if we somehow got....Mackinnon and nothing else, i think we'd be fine, due to infuse of talent, even though we're somehow not looking specifically for a #1 center anymore today.

If we had Price playing like 2014-2016 it would make a tremendous difference too.

I'm not saying Panarin would hurt - but he just doesn't excite me. I think he wants to play in a very big american city - and i could see him being the type to want to play with big star players (like signing in Pitt to play with Crosby/Malkin). Montreal isn't a big american city and we don't really have stars up front. I don't think it's a good fit at all.

 

[Habs Halifax]

We need more talent, in a nutshell. Looking for positional needs is one way but if we somehow got....Mackinnon and nothing else, i think we'd be fine, due to infuse of talent, even though we're somehow not looking specifically for a #1 center anymore today.

If we had Price playing like 2014-2016 it would make a tremendous difference too.

I'm not saying Panarin would hurt - but he just doesn't excite me. I think he wants to play in a very big american city - and i could see him being the type to want to play with big star players (like signing in Pitt to play with Crosby/Malkin). Montreal isn't a big american city and we don't really have stars up front. I don't think it's a good fit at all.

I'm not drooling over Panarin either. But he does have game. I tend to agree, the Habs won't be on his list.

A Mackinnon type would be awesome! Getting an asset like this in UFA or Trades is rare. Very rare. Better to try to draft one.

 

[Lshap]

The moves as of late have turned out pretty good. I still can't forgive him, he's done more harm than good imo and I'm not ready to credit him for all the recent moves. His 5 years before that trump any recent success, I still believe Timmins and or someone else are having much greater influence than previously. MB has proven time and time again he is in over his head, however, if the moves continue, I don't really care who makes them or who gets credit for them or if we do or don't fire him. I just want us to pick a direction for the first time in his tenure and stick to it for longer than 20-30 games.

I doubt the organization is being run by a hidden cabal fronted by a shell GM. Much more likely is it's exactly what it appears: Bergevin had no other option but to rebuild his staff and roster, and is thus far doing a good job. Is it a change from his past few years? Of course. Circumstances changed radically; so did Bergevin. Failure backed him into a corner and forced a change in direction, but he's still the guy with his hands on the wheel. I'm sure there's been plenty of input from his scouting and coaching staff, which is how it works in any organization -- the boss hires people whose advice is valued. The most likely scenario is that Bergevin has become more open to new ideas and more motivated to add new perspectives, hence his new hires, Ducharme and Richardson. The present good moves, like the past bad moves, are all ultimately on Bergevin.

You can legitimately blame Bergevin for getting us into this mess in the first place, but we've beaten that subject into the ground. Right now the only thing that counts now is his ability to dig us out of the hole he created. It's not about forgiveness -- he's not my friend -- I just want him to stay on the track he's been on the past 10 months and build this team back up.

 

[Rapala]

I think he was one of the most underrated player in the league when he was playing with Hawks. Even more so playing with the Coyotes.. I'd be all over him.

The Hawks would have done better keeping him and moving say a Kieth or a Seabrooke.

 

[Hfbsux]

The Hawks would have done better keeping him and moving say a Kieth or a Seabrooke.

Agreed! Quenneville was not happy and I don't blame him one bit. I would have traded Seabrook first no doubt, maybe they could have room to sign Panarin.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

What if the clock is digital? If it's broken it may never be right.

Does Bergevin look digital to you?

Bergevin is an old school clock, obviously. Little birdies that turn and chirp around his head every hour. Co0-coo, coo-coo.

Now that's an analogy

 

[groovejuice]

I think Tavares was a game changer. not sure about Panarin nor anyone else on the horizon. Also I doubt Panarin signs here - with Tavares, even though I was wrong, i thought him being friendly with Weber/Price and him being Canadian maybe gave us a chance - no such luck with Panarin and i doubt we'd be considered.

Honestly i'm all for using our cap space but there's no rush to do it. If we're contenders? Sure. If we're not? Let's take it slow and see what opportunities arise. Maybe some high profile player demands a trade, or maybe an RFA goes RFA (Matthews is up next year)..i'm fine having a lot of cap space for now.

If one aspires to be a contender, then one also must accept some sacrifices in the short term for long term gain. This should be self-evident, but clearly it's not.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

We're entering dangerous territory...

With no plan or long term vision in place, this mid season slump could trigger a bone headed panic move.

We've got cap space and some solid prospects in the system... Scary to think of what he might try to do.

That's like the worst case scenario, where it does help us, only to get booted in the first round and Molson thinks it's a good idea to just repeat and see where it goes.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

If one aspires to be a contender, then one also must accept some sacrifices in the short term for long term gain. This should be self-evident, but clearly it's not.

Not even close. Even worst, it's derided as a looser's mentality.

These people haven't learned about delaying gratification. That's how long term plans are accomplished. It's maturity and wisdom. Pragmatism. Delaying gratification is about removing your ego's wants. For them it seems like more important to not be seen as a loser, rather than actually doing something for the long term.

 

[OldCraig71]

That's like the worst case scenario, where it does help us, only to get booted in the first round and Molson thinks it's a good idea to just repeat and see where it goes.

And people here would still defend it even after everything else that has happened along the way lol.

 

[Hfbsux]

That's like the worst case scenario, where it does help us, only to get booted in the first round and Molson thinks it's a good idea to just repeat and see where it goes.

And people here would still defend it even after everything else that has happened along the way lol.

It is the worst situation to be in, indeed, it is very frustrating. But then again, we were in that situation 2 years ago with Markov and Radulov and fans still complain to this day that they weren't signed (even tho it was impossible to sign both). Here we are saying that we shouldn't trust Bergevin to acquire any player who would help us right now. I'm still on the fence about wanting to tank this year, our future looks good and the team isn't getting pummeled like last year.

 

[groovejuice]

It is the worst situation to be in, indeed, it is very frustrating. But then again, we were in that situation 2 years ago with Markov and Radulov and fans still complain to this day that they weren't signed (even tho it was impossible to sign both). Here we are saying that we shouldn't trust Bergevin to acquire any player who would help us right now. I'm still on the fence about wanting to tank this year, our future looks good and the team isn't getting pummeled like last year.

It actually wasn't impossible to sign both Radulov and Markov. It's a core function of a GM to work within the cap and that also entails freeing up space for exactly that scenario. It's not like there were no players who were unmoveable or redundant.

Bergevin threw out the babies and proceeded to sign the bathwater.

 

[the]

It is the worst situation to be in, indeed, it is very frustrating. But then again, we were in that situation 2 years ago with Markov and Radulov and fans still complain to this day that they weren't signed (even tho it was impossible to sign both). Here we are saying that we shouldn't trust Bergevin to acquire any player who would help us right now. I'm still on the fence about wanting to tank this year, our future looks good and the team isn't getting pummeled like last year.

Don't sign a scrub like Alzner and it was very possible to sign Markov and Radulov.

 

[Hfbsux]

Don't sign a scrub like Alzner and it was very possible to sign Markov and Radulov.

You know Alzner was signed after the fact?

 

[the]

You know Alzner was signed after the fact?

Yup...July 1st we had all the time in the world to sign Markov and Radulov before July 1st.

Money was never an issue.

 

[OnTheRun]

You know Alzner was signed after the fact?

No?

 

[David Suzuki]

Only on the habs boards are the fans who support the team winning the "bad guys", and the fans who want the team to lose and complain about everyone the "good guys" who get all the likes.

Kinda funny

Yeah I'll never get the people who go in to a game cheering for a loss/tank. If we lose and it helps geta a better pick so be it but I'll never understand the psycohology of someone who goes in to every game hoping the Habs lose. Maybe they're just fishing for likes with their posts, though.

 

[Hfbsux]

It actually wasn't impossible to sign both Radulov and Markov. It's a core function of a GM to work within the cap and that also entails freeing up space for exactly that scenario. It's not like there were no players who were unmoveable or redundant.

Bergevin threw out the babies and proceeded to sign the bathwater.

Agreed, he could have signed both by trading another player away. That being said, we would have still be a 1st round playoff team (with no cap, on top of that). Which is exactly my point.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It is the worst situation to be in, indeed, it is very frustrating. But then again, we were in that situation 2 years ago with Markov and Radulov and fans still complain to this day that they weren't signed (even tho it was impossible to sign both). Here we are saying that we shouldn't trust Bergevin to acquire any player who would help us right now. I'm still on the fence about wanting to tank this year, our future looks good and the team isn't getting pummeled like last year.

Stop repeating this fallacy. Bergevin had 6 months to deal with Rads and a full year to deal with Markov, way before signing AHLzner who's money would've permitted us to sign both. He couldn't sign both the moment he signed AHLzner.

As for the reasons why those signings were expected?? Look no further than 12 months prior to that when they traded fan favorite Subban, Bergevin said, it made his team better, it was a hockey trade. You're sacrificing 4 years of prime term on one of your two best assets. You better be building to compete for the present. Otherwise, losing that player becomes even more painful and costly in terms of asset management. But then, two other fan favorites go too, for nothing? Plus we have to endure that catastrophy of a season? All of this, to just end-up worst than before he started tinkering with the team?

With Drouin added, and not as a center, to the same crew with Radulov still on it? Mete with Weber, Markov with Petry. At least we would've competed, maybe exceeded that first round exit against the Rangers. And at least Bergevin would've been consequent with what he said.

That's really what pisses me off the most. Why do all of that? There was no need to trade Subban. No need to trade Eller. The actual need was in revamping management and coaching, which came waaay too late.

 

[Hfbsux]

Stop repeating this fallacy. Bergevin had 6 months to deal with Rads and a full year to deal with Markov, way before signing AHLzner who's money would've permitted us to sign both. He couldn't sign both the moment he signed AHLzner.

As for the reasons why those signings were expected?? Look no further than 12 months prior to that when they traded fan favorite Subban, Bergevin said, it made his team better, it was a hockey trade. You're sacrificing 4 years of prime term on one of your two best assets. You better be building to compete for the present. Otherwise, losing that player becomes even more painful and costly in terms of asset management. But then, two other fan favorites go too, for nothing? Plus we have to endure that catastrophy of a season? All of this, to just end-up worst than before he started tinkering with the team?

With Drouin added, and not as a center, to the same crew with Radulov still on it? Mete with Weber, Markov with Petry. At least we would've competed, maybe exceeded that first round exit against the Rangers. And at least Bergevin would've be consequent with what he said.

That's really what pisses me off the most. Why do all of that? There was no need to trade Subban. No need to trade Eller. The actual need was in revamping management and coaching, which came waaay too late.

As for me having to stop repeating that "fallacy": I don't think Radulov wanted to comeback. Pretty sure I've been through it with you or someone else before. My opinion still hasn't changed. That being said, I should have taken that bracket out of my post as it doesn't affect the point I was trying to make.

The Subban trade, I was a fan of it. I like defensive defenseman like Weber and I'm not a big fan of flashy offensive defenseman. Absolutely hated when Subban was doing his fancy thing while being the last guy back. It is really unfortunate that Weber got hurt this long. However, I think the Preds were perfect for Subban as he is not a 1-man show on that blueline. Josi, Ekholm and Ellis will not tolerate their partner doing risky move while being the last guy back. Montreal could have coached him better.

I agree with Drouin playing with Radulov would have make us a better team, even more than a 1st round run. Altought, I doubt we trade Sergachev if Bergevin thought we could signed both Russians.

I agree with you about changing the management and coaching too late tho.

 

[Hfbsux]

No?

True, if you take it litterally, but at that point it was written in the sky that they were not coming back.

 

[OnTheRun]

True, if you take it litterally, but at that point it was written in the sky that they were not coming back.

Was it tho?

Let me help you out here with some chronology:
July 1st: Alzner become a Habs
July 2nd: Marc Bergevin is giving his "dog presser". First come, first served. He said.
July 3rd: Radulov signs with Dallas.
July 14th(?): Markov retire from the NHL.

 

[Hfbsux]

Was it tho?

Let me help you out here with some chronology:
July 1st: Alzner become a Habs
July 2nd: Marc Bergevin is giving his "dog presser". First come, first served. He said.
July 3rd: Radulov signs with Dallas.
July 14th(?): Markov retire from the NHL.

The fact that he signed Alzner gave it away. It was also known before the 1st of July that the 2 players wanted more. Rumors were that Markov wanted 2 years averaging 6-7M per year. When a UFA doesn't sign with the team before July 1st, usually it is a sign. Radulov signing the same contract offered by Dallas also tells you something about his intentions.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

As for me having to stop repeating that "fallacy": I don't think Radulov wanted to comeback. Pretty sure I've been through it with you or someone else before. My opinion still hasn't changed. That being said, I should have taken that bracket out of my post as it doesn't affect the point I was trying to make.

The Subban trade, I was a fan of it. I like defensive defenseman like Weber and I'm not a big fan of flashy offensive defenseman. Absolutely hated when Subban was doing his fancy thing while being the last guy back. It is really unfortunate that Weber got hurt this long. However, I think the Preds were perfect for Subban as he is not a 1-man show on that blueline. Josi, Ekholm and Ellis will not tolerate their partner doing risky move while being the last guy back. Montreal could have coached him better.

I agree with Drouin playing with Radulov would have make us a better team, even more than a 1st round run. Altought, I doubt we trade Sergachev if Bergevin thought we could signed both Russians.

I agree with you about changing the management and coaching too late tho.

you said impossible, hence fallacy

The rest is just conjecture.

Facts are
1- Bergevin had plenty of space to sign both and go over what Dallas gave way before Dallas can even entertain offers
2- He had months to CONVINCE (that's his job) them to stay and find common ground

As for the Subban trade, you're whole conception of what Subban does is a ridiculous caricature. Both are two-way dmen, but one is more-risk taking but also more creative and tilts the ice more in his favor. But aside from all of that, I hope you used past tense to say you liked it back then, because today, it looks bad, not just because Subban has performed better overall (please don't try to argue this, facts are there) and has played more games (just luck), but the single fact that we have lost 4 years of prime asset to our most important skater for no good reason since what it was meant to do never happened.

 

[Andrei79]

I dont like Panarin
.

You don't like elite dynamic wingers ?