Marc Bergevin: Even a broken clock is right twice a day Edition

[OnTheRun]

The fact that he signed Alzner gave it away. It was also known before the 1st of July that the 2 players wanted more. Rumors were that Markov wanted 2 years averaging 6-7M per year. When a UFA doesn't sign with the team before July 1st, usually it is a sign. Radulov signing the same contract offered by Dallas also tells you something about his intentions.

Well we went from "impossible to sign both" to "leap of faith down conjectures canyon" in no time here.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Yeah I'll never get the people who go in to a game cheering for a loss/tank. If we lose and it helps geta a better pick so be it but I'll never understand the psycohology of someone who goes in to every game hoping the Habs lose. Maybe they're just fishing for likes with their posts, though.

It's pretty easy to understand.

You realistically look at the league, the roster and compare this team to contenders and past winners. A simple analysis reveals the team lacks the depth and talent required to win.

You look at those contenders and winners and see that the major pieces leading to their wins were acquired through drafting high.

You then cheer for the outcome that is most likely going to give you the chance to get someone of that calibre so that you are a step closer to potentially being a team that could win.

I don't agree with the mentality of hoping for a win when you know the team has no realistic shot of actually winning, especially if you've been a fan since 1993 and seen where the ole finish 7-10 every year gets you. No cup and no elite talent

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The fact that he signed Alzner gave it away. It was also known before the 1st of July that the 2 players wanted more. Rumors were that Markov wanted 2 years averaging 6-7M per year. When a UFA doesn't sign with the team before July 1st, usually it is a sign. Radulov signing the same contract offered by Dallas also tells you something about his intentions.

No, you simply infer whatever you will.

Let's play the same game. We don't know what were Bergevin's initial offers. We don't know what was said between them. The fact he wasn't able to come to terms with a long time Habs LOYAL player, WHO NEVER tried to make bank elsewhere, tells me Bergevin slighted Markov. If he wasn't able to deal with such a loyal player, how does that bode with Radulov if the latter wanted a full pay?

This inference game can be taken in alm0st any direction desired. You just desire to believe they were the problem.

But the truth is, it's Bergevin's job to manage those assets, to make sure to do what it takes to not lose important assets for nothing.

 

[Hfbsux]

you said impossible, hence fallacy

The rest is just conjecture.

Facts are
1- Bergevin had plenty of space to sign both and go over what Dallas gave
2- He had months to CONVINCE (that's his job) them to stay and find common ground

As for the Subban trade, you're whole conception of what Subban does is a ridiculous caricature. Both are two-way dmen, but one is more-risk taking but also more creative and tilts the ice more in his favor. But aside from all of that, I hope you used past tense to say you liked it back then, because today, it looks bad, not just because Subban has performed better overall (please don't try to argue this, facts are there) and has played more games (just luck), but the single fact that we have lost 4 years of prime asset to our most important skater for no good reason since what it was meant to do never happened.

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

2 - True, but players don't always have the same intention. Tavares accepted a pay cut to got to Toronto.

As for Subban, you can have your own opinion on him, you wont change mine. Sorry for your loss but i'm not empathizing with you. I understand that Bergevin can't predict the future, but people here tend to think he can. Have Weber been healthy maybe there wouldn't be a big fuss about it. Weber was always a prime defender in the NHL. And yes, I'm aware Subban has performed better overall since.

 

[bobholly39]

You don't like elite dynamic wingers ?

Some star players i like more than others - and i don't like Panarin too much, no.

Not enough to want to overpay for him, as I would have been willing with Tavares.

 

[Hfbsux]

Well we went from "impossible to sign both" to "leap of faith down conjectures canyon" in no time here.

No, you simply infer whatever you will.

Let's play the same game. We don't know what were Bergevin's initial offers. We don't know what was said between them. The fact he wasn't able to come to terms with a long time Habs LOYAL player, WHO NEVER tried to make bank elsewhere, tells me Bergevin slighted Markov. If he wasn't able to deal with such a loyal player, how does that bode with Radulov if the latter wanted a full pay?

This inference game can be taken in alm0st any direction desired. You just desire to believe they were the problem.

But the truth is, it's Bergevin's job to manage those assets, to make sure to do what it takes to not lose important assets for nothing.

Both your response are in my previous post.

 

[Miller Time]

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

2 - True, but players don't always have the same intention. Tavares accepted a pay cut to got to Toronto.

As for Subban, you can have your own opinion on him, you want change mine. Sorry for your loss but i'm not empathizing with you. I understand that Bergevin can't predict the future, but people here tend to think he can. Have Weber been healthy maybe there wouldn't be a big fuss about it. Weber was always a prime defender in the NHL. And yes, I'm aware Subban has performed better overall since.

Funny, many fans predicted that PK would help the press get to the finals sooner than later & that Weber would start breaking down....

Player evaluation and forecasting development & contributions is precisely what a GM is responsible for... And where MB has repeatedly shown himself inept. He's missed on far more (both volume and quality) player personnel decisions than he had hit... He's just not very good at his job.

Making strawman excuses to justify his major gaffes is silly. No one can predict the future, obviously, but top managers in any field distinguish themselves by their ability to forecast more effectively than the average (and the worst rely on the occasional lucky strike to disguise their mediocrity)

 

[groovejuice]

The fact that he signed Alzner gave it away. It was also known before the 1st of July that the 2 players wanted more. Rumors were that Markov wanted 2 years averaging 6-7M per year. When a UFA doesn't sign with the team before July 1st, usually it is a sign. Radulov signing the same contract offered by Dallas also tells you something about his intentions.

Or perhaps it tells you that Radulov wasn't impressed with the antagonistic approach of Bergevin. What he did was totally counterproductive to persuading a UFA to sign.

 

[Hfbsux]

Funny, many fans predicted that PK would help the press get to the finals sooner than later & that Weber would start breaking down....

Player evaluation and forecasting development & contributions is precisely what a GM is responsible for... And where MB has repeatedly shown himself inept. He's missed on far more (both volume and quality) player personnel decisions than he had hit... He's just not very good at his job.

Making strawman excuses to justify his major gaffes is silly. No one can predict the future, obviously, but top managers in any field distinguish themselves by their ability to forecast more effectively than the average (and the worst rely on the occasional lucky strike to disguise their mediocrity)

Weber would start breaking down how? Those people were saying this because he was not the fastest skater. Thing is, Weber has always been slow, it is part of his game. How would he break down barring any injury? The only thing that worried me was the fact that he looked tired in their playoffs before the trade. I'm not saying we won the trade, I said that I liked the trade, I'm a little confused here.

 

[Hfbsux]

Or perhaps it tells you that Radulov wasn't impressed with the antagonistic approach of Bergevin. What he did was totally counterproductive to persuading a UFA to sign.

So many questions eh?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

Please stop repeating this. THAT WAS ON JULY 1ST AFTER SIGNING AHLZNER AND STREIT. You forget that Radulov would take the place of the lowest salary, so you have to add at least 1 mil there, quite enough to boost Radu's salary to stay. Ahlzner's hit is 4,5. We had 8,1 in space after the horrible signings. 8.1+4.5+1 = 13.6. That was quite enough to sign both.

And contrarily to your false statement Markov was never said to be looking to get over 6 mil. You said 6-7. It was always 6 that was reported. You tweaked this to fit your narrative. That's another falsehood.

It wouldn't have taken 8 mil to keep Radu either. Europeens don't pay the same taxes as residents do in Canada, they pay less. That Tax excuse has been debunked extensively. Another falsehood.

(mod) You'll just about use any excuse you can find to absolve Bergevin

 

[Hfbsux]

Please stop repeating this. THAT WAS ON JULY 1ST AFTER SIGNING AHLZNER AND STREIT. You forget that Radulov would take the place of the lowest salary, so you have to add at least 1 mil there, quite enough to boost Radu's salary to stay. Ahlzner's hit is 4,5. We had 8,1 in space after the horrible signings. 8.1+4.5+1 = 13.6. That was quite enough to sign both.

And contrarily to your false statement Markov was never said to be looking to get over 6 mil. You said 6-7. It was always 6 that was reported. You tweaked this to fit your narrative. That's another falsehood.

It wouldn't have taken 8 mil to keep Radu either. Europeens don't pay the same taxes as residents do in Canada, they pay less. That Tax excuse has been debunked extensively. Another falsehood.

How thick are you? You'll just about use any excuse you can find to absolve Bergevin

Never 7M?

More Details Of Andrei Markov's Contract Demands Released

lol

 

[Hfbsux]

Never 7M?

More Details Of Andrei Markov's Contract Demands Released

lol

Now if it was 3.5 per, I'd be all in.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Never 7M?
More Details Of Andrei Markov's Contract Demands Released
lol

lol
That's your source???

You understand that Murphy is quoted as saying Markov is threatening to talk to other teams.

Markov is quoted as saying he never talked to another team when it failed with the Habs. That should tell you how reliable the source was.

I dare you to try to find a better source. All the known insiders said 6 mil per.

And contrarily to you I can prove what I assert. Let's start with Markov feeling slighted by Bergevin :

Report: Andrei Markov felt disrespected by Canadiens' Bergevin - Sportsnet.ca

“I’m going to be honest with you, there was practically no negotiations with Montreal. I got two or three offers from them and they said, ‘Either you sign or you don’t sign.’ No one listened to me and no one wanted to listen to me. That’s what happened. So I had the choice to sign on their terms or to leave and find a new team.”

Now let's take a quote from your source and compare it to what Markov says

Your source:

Murphy tweeted out that according to a source, Markov is looking to land a two year deal worth $7million. If the Habs aren't willing to fulfill his salary demands, he's ready to talk to other teams.

It's extremely assinine because Markov is known to have never been the kind to wanna break bank, why would he start at 38??

Markov:

Yes, there were bonuses, but it wasn’t a question of money, it was a question of the way it was presented to me. We didn’t even talk. I didn’t like the way they made their offer. There were no discussions. Just an offer made and that’s it.

Cowan:
Andrei Markov said he couldn’t imagine playing for another NHL team besides the Canadiens

Andrei Markov said he couldn’t imagine playing for another NHL team besides the Canadiens, which is why he’s now headed to Russia to play in the KHL.

Cowan:

Markov, who became an unrestricted free agent on July 1, was reported to have been looking for a two-year deal worth US$12 million. On Thursday Markov admitted he started out looking for a two-year deal, but was willing to sign for one year with the Canadiens.

Markov:

I don’t see myself with any other NHL team, I didn’t see myself wearing another jersey.

I don’t want to go through the negotiations, but to make a deal it always takes two people.

Andrei Markov says Montreal rejected one-year deal, heads to KHL

Markov’s initial ask was reported to be two years and $12 million.

Andrei Markov leaves Montreal for reported two-year KHL deal - Sportsnet.ca

The top-four defenceman had originally requested a two-year, $12-million contract to remain in Montreal

Those aren't obscure sources that contradict what is known of Markov. Those are multiple known source that say exactly everything that I said, including being slighted by Bergevin.

The fact you needed to dig really deep to find one obscure source that contradicts all those official sources you MUST ALSO HAVE SEEN WHILE SEARCHING, means you are incredibly childish and just can't accept that you are wrong.

(mod)

 

[groovejuice]

So many questions eh?

I'm saying it's not cut and dried. It's wrong to assume that Radulov didn't want to sign in Montreal simply because he ended up in Dallas.

I think if you factor in the entire drama rather than the final act, it wasn't at all a certainty that Montreal wasn't his first choice.

 

[covfefe]

You don't like elite dynamic wingers ?

I hate players who lead their mediocre, offensively anemic teams in scoring by 25 points!

Would much prefer CHaracter and drop passes on the PP.

 

[Habset]

Never 7M?

More Details Of Andrei Markov's Contract Demands Released

lol

Do you really think writing lol at the end makes you win an argument?

Anyways, Markov was an over 35 contract, he wanted 2 years at 12 Million and was on record saying he'd accept bonus' to make the contract work which would have made his base cap hit even lower. He should have been resigned and treated with much more respect then he was given. Not sure if people either forgot or are too young to remember how important Markov had been for this team, there's a reason we called him the General.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

2 - True, but players don't always have the same intention. Tavares accepted a pay cut to got to Toronto.

As for Subban, you can have your own opinion on him, you wont change mine. Sorry for your loss but i'm not empathizing with you. I understand that Bergevin can't predict the future, but people here tend to think he can. Have Weber been healthy maybe there wouldn't be a big fuss about it. Weber was always a prime defender in the NHL. And yes, I'm aware Subban has performed better overall since.

1- you are pulling that number out of your butt.
The top-four defenceman had originally requested a two-year, $12-million contract to remain in Montreal, and the Canadiens opted to sign UFA Mark Streit on a one-year, $750,000 pact instead.
He wanted what he had earned.
1b-you guys keep making up numbers and we have TOLD YOU MULTIPLE TIMES that the tax issue is pure BS as we have programs to allow players to retain their money once they leave country. Second you don't even understand that the way his contract was structured to protected him from the lockout that will happen. That is worth way more money than tax differences.
1C We would have had plenty of cap space when you figure MB spent 1 million(300,00 bonus) on streit and 4.6 on alzner-just about the same amount as markovs last several contracts. Then we spent a million on hemsky and started the season with 8.3 million in cap. That is almost 14 million if we don't sign that waste on alzner/streit/hemsky. We can assume Markov may have taken 10 over 2 years but marc ONLY offered a 1 year 5 million dollar deal take it or leave it, and whoever comes first. Not to mention that brilliant signing of price. Maybe cut 1 million off of Careys salary and he takes a home town discount??? NO? What a mercenary!
OH and this little nugget
Report: Andrei Markov felt disrespected by Canadiens' Bergevin - Sportsnet.ca
“As an athlete and as a person who spent 16 years of their life in Montreal, I’d have liked it if they had respected me,” said Markov. “That’s all I was asking for from the team.”

“I’m going to be honest with you,” added Markov. “There was practically no negotiations with Montreal. I got two or three offers from them and they said, ‘Either you sign or you don’t sign.’

“No one listened to me and no one wanted to listen to me. That’s what happened. So I had the choice to sign on their terms or to leave and find a new team.”

Canadiens owner Geoff Molson released a statement made in French to TVA Sports earlier on Friday in response to the Journal de Montreal report, saying the franchise was always respectful towards Markov.

As Bernier mentioned in his report, Bergevin had said at the Canadiens golf tournament in September that he had made an offer to Markov that would’ve allowed him to make his desired salary through performance bonuses once he had come off his demand for a two-year contract and was willing to sign for only one year.
“Yes, there were bonuses,” Markov confirmed. “But it wasn’t a question of money, it was a question of the way it was presented to me. We didn’t even talk. I didn’t like the way they made their offer. There were no discussions. Just an offer made and that’s it.”

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So to all you pom pom wavers who say-Had to be those damn mercenaries. Here is an interview that explains part of the problem your side refuses to accept. Just like the dog comment. Marc is the reason they didn't sign. Not the contracts, not greed, not even term. MARC BERGEVIN created this disaster by being a worse human being than the moron coach he made as his foxhole buddy. Its no wonder he lover Therrien. Birds of a feather crap together.

Finally Tavares also knew Marc was an idiot and didn't even want to discuss money with him. Go where you might have a chance, and taking 12 million averaged out isn't exactly a home town discount as the highest paid player in the league. OR come to a place like the habs where the GM is so brilliant because he is rebuilding even while trying to sign every UFA that can walk because he is still in win now mode.
This years salaries BTW.

1. John Tavares (Toronto Maple Leafs) $15.9 million
2. Connor McDavid (Edmonton Oilers) $15 million
   Carey Price (Montreal Canadiens) $15 million
3. Jamie Benn (Dallas Stars) $13 million
4. John Carlson (Washington Capitals) $12 million
   
   Should I mention that given drouin is paid 5.5 million is radulov only worth 750,000 more given how they each play, regardless of points.
   
   
   Pom pom crew can't admit they are wrong even when MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE are presented, time and time again.

 

[groovejuice]

1- you are pulling that number out of your butt.
The top-four defenceman had originally requested a two-year, $12-million contract to remain in Montreal, and the Canadiens opted to sign UFA Mark Streit on a one-year, $750,000 pact instead.
He wanted what he had earned.
1b-you guys keep making up numbers and we have TOLD YOU MULTIPLE TIMES that the tax issue is pure BS as we have programs to allow players to retain their money once they leave country. Second you don't even understand that the way his contract was structured to protected him from the lockout that will happen. That is worth way more money than tax differences.
1C We would have had plenty of cap space when you figure MB spent 1 million(300,00 bonus) on streit and 4.6 on alzner-just about the same amount as markovs last several contracts. Then we spent a million on hemsky and started the season with 8.3 million in cap. That is almost 14 million if we don't sign that waste on alzner/streit/hemsky. We can assume Markov may have taken 10 over 2 years but marc ONLY offered a 1 year 5 million dollar deal take it or leave it, and whoever comes first. Not to mention that brilliant signing of price. Maybe cut 1 million off of Careys salary and he takes a home town discount??? NO? What a mercenary!
OH and this little nugget
Report: Andrei Markov felt disrespected by Canadiens' Bergevin - Sportsnet.ca
“As an athlete and as a person who spent 16 years of their life in Montreal, I’d have liked it if they had respected me,” said Markov. “That’s all I was asking for from the team.”

“I’m going to be honest with you,” added Markov. “There was practically no negotiations with Montreal. I got two or three offers from them and they said, ‘Either you sign or you don’t sign.’

“No one listened to me and no one wanted to listen to me. That’s what happened. So I had the choice to sign on their terms or to leave and find a new team.”

Canadiens owner Geoff Molson released a statement made in French to TVA Sports earlier on Friday in response to the Journal de Montreal report, saying the franchise was always respectful towards Markov.

As Bernier mentioned in his report, Bergevin had said at the Canadiens golf tournament in September that he had made an offer to Markov that would’ve allowed him to make his desired salary through performance bonuses once he had come off his demand for a two-year contract and was willing to sign for only one year.
“Yes, there were bonuses,” Markov confirmed. “But it wasn’t a question of money, it was a question of the way it was presented to me. We didn’t even talk. I didn’t like the way they made their offer. There were no discussions. Just an offer made and that’s it.”

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

So to all you pom pom wavers who say-Had to be those damn mercenaries. Here is an interview that explains part of the problem your side refuses to accept. Just like the dog comment. Marc is the reason they didn't sign. Not the contracts, not greed, not even term. MARC BERGEVIN created this disaster by being a worse human being than the moron coach he made as his foxhole buddy. Its no wonder he lover Therrien. Birds of a feather crap together.

Finally Tavares also knew Marc was an idiot and didn't even want to discuss money with him. Go where you might have a chance, and taking 12 million averaged out isn't exactly a home town discount as the highest paid player in the league. OR come to a place like the habs where the GM is so brilliant because he is rebuilding even while trying to sign every UFA that can walk because he is still in win now mode.
This years salaries BTW.

1. John Tavares (Toronto Maple Leafs) $15.9 million
2. Connor McDavid (Edmonton Oilers) $15 million
   Carey Price (Montreal Canadiens) $15 million
3. Jamie Benn (Dallas Stars) $13 million
4. John Carlson (Washington Capitals) $12 million
   
   Should I mention that given drouin is paid 5.5 million is radulov only worth 750,000 more given how they each play, regardless of points.
   
   
   Pom pom crew can't admit they are wrong even when MOUNTAINS of EVIDENCE are presented, time and time again.

My name is groovejuice and I approve this post.

 

[Doc McKenna]

My name is groovejuice and I approve this post.

A wall of text, but I guess these guys like to with regards to MB and how he handles negotiations.

 

[Andrei79]

Some star players i like more than others - and i don't like Panarin too much, no.

Ok... Go on...

 

[nhlfan9191]

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

2 - True, but players don't always have the same intention. Tavares accepted a pay cut to got to Toronto.

As for Subban, you can have your own opinion on him, you wont change mine. Sorry for your loss but i'm not empathizing with you. I understand that Bergevin can't predict the future, but people here tend to think he can. Have Weber been healthy maybe there wouldn't be a big fuss about it. Weber was always a prime defender in the NHL. And yes, I'm aware Subban has performed better overall since.

He had tones of space. He just decided to waste it by throwing it at a guy who was just placed on waivers.

 

[Doc McKenna]

He had tones of space. He just decided to waste it by throwing it at a guy who was just placed on waivers.

And two other guys that didn't finish the 2017 season.
More master communications from MB and we really gave him a chance!
https://www.tsn.ca/streit-habs-demotion-was-a-shock-1.896511


MS signed a one-year, $700,000 contract to return to the Montreal Canadiens this summer after nine years apart.
However, just two games into his second stint with the team that drafted him, the Canadiens waived the 39-year-old and assigned him to AHL.
Streit told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette this week it was not a move he saw coming.
“What happened in Montreal was kind of a surprise and a shock,” Streit said this week. “I expected something else, but it is what it is. It’s hockey. It’s a business. You shake it off, see what’s out there and what you want to do.”
Streit refused to report to Laval Rocket and the Canadiens terminated his contract earlier this month.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Everything is possible by moving assets but it was impossible on July 1st.

1 - He did not have plenty of space to sign both. He had 11-12M to sign both, Markov wanting 6-7M and for Radulov we would have to gave him 8.1M to match his contract in Dallas (tax factor). Plenty of cap space is wrong, hence fallacy!! (so lame..)

2 - True, but players don't always have the same intention. Tavares accepted a pay cut to got to Toronto.

As for Subban, you can have your own opinion on him, you wont change mine. Sorry for your loss but i'm not empathizing with you. I understand that Bergevin can't predict the future, but people here tend to think he can. Have Weber been healthy maybe there wouldn't be a big fuss about it. Weber was always a prime defender in the NHL. And yes, I'm aware Subban has performed better overall since.

This is non sense and 100% false.

We always had the cap space to sign Markov. Bergevin just decided not to use it.

Before the moron offered Alzner a contract we had cap space.

Even after Alzner signed with the habs the moron was unable to re-sign Radulov and we again had the cap space to sign Markov.

The moron EGO is the problem and the reason we disrespected Markov.

That specific episode was a big reason why the habs collapsed like they did last year.

That specific episode of disrespecting Markov is also the reason why I want him gone no matter what.

 

[SirClintonPortis]

Panarin is basically the other Patrick Kane.