Marc Bergevin: Draft? Edition (XIV)

[Habs Halifax]

If Drouin were to ever get another shot it will probably be as a reclamation project and he will get the benefit of the doubt because of his draft position, he might even end up in Seattle as a Krak head, lol I would love that. Far away from the unfair pressures of Montreal and the negative drama he would finally be free to show what he can do. If we still had Sergachev this team would be in a much better position right now and we all know it. We are not going to agree on this so it is what it is.

Like I said... I might agree with you when I get to see Drouin play with a center like ROR one day.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Drouin has played with -
Domi
Suzuki
Point
Stamkos
Johnson

As his centers in his career. I really don't think it matters who he plays with, he just sucks.

 

[Scriptor]

Drouin has played with -
Domi
Suzuki
Point
Stamkos
Johnson

As his centers in his career. I really don't think it matters who he plays with, he just sucks.

Solid analysis there. Yeah, we'll just go with that, right. You don't like Drouin -- and that's fine -- but, that doesn't make him a player with less talent than he does have.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Solid analysis there. Yeah, we'll just go with that, right. You don't like Drouin -- and that's fine -- but, that doesn't make him a player with less talent than he does have.

On the contrary, I was a huge Drouin fan in Halifax and throughout his early career. I was one of the few who was duped into thinking that he might actually have the higher upside between him and McKinnon.

He's very talented but he sucks as a NHL hockey player and the proof is in the pudding. He's a negative value player at his contract and the work required to get meager production out of him isn't worth the investment.

 

[JimboJay]

Drouin has played with -
Domi
Suzuki
Point
Stamkos
Johnson

As his centers in his career. I really don't think it matters who he plays with, he just sucks.

209 points in 349 games ... that isnt a player that "just sucks" He has 2 seasons at over 50 points. Im not the biggest drouin fan in the world but lets not overstate his suckiness. He's a decent, mid-tier, middle six player. He's not an elite player & likely never will be (Despite having a number of skills that make it *seem* like he could be) but he defintely doesnt "suck." Has he had slumps? sure. But he's still a career .60ppg player. That aint terrible in today's nhl.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Drouin has played with -
Domi
Suzuki
Point
Stamkos
Johnson

As his centers in his career. I really don't think it matters who he plays with, he just sucks.

- Stamkos was hurt in Drouin's age 20 and 21 season.
- Point was a rookie in Drouin's age 21 season
- Suzuki was a rookie in Drouin's age 24 season
- Johnson and Domi were the best he's played with. The are not ROR types

Has he had a constant center for a full season with both Tampa and the Habs? Answer is no. Domi would be the closest (18/19 season). This is not an excuse, it's reality

 

[WeThreeKings]

209 points in 349 games ... that isnt a player that "just sucks" He has 2 seasons at over 50 points. Im not the biggest drouin fan in the world but lets not overstate his suckiness. He's a decent, mid-tier, middle six player. He's not an elite player & likely never will be (Despite having a number of skills that make it *seem* like he could be) but he defintely doesnt "suck." Has he had slumps? sure. But he's still a career .60ppg player. That aint terrible in today's nhl.

A career .58 ppg player who's younger than Drouin, drafted at the same spot, was just punted off a contending team as a salary throw-in to get Jason Zucker.

It really isn't anything to care about.

 

[Habs Halifax]

209 points in 349 games ... that isnt a player that "just sucks" He has 2 seasons at over 50 points. Im not the biggest drouin fan in the world but lets not overstate his suckiness. He's a decent, mid-tier, middle six player. He's not an elite player & likely never will be (Despite having a number of skills that make it *seem* like he could be) but he defintely doesnt "suck." Has he had slumps? sure. But he's still a career .60ppg player. That aint terrible in today's nhl.

Agreed. And some in our fan base is treating him like he has a $7M cap hit.

 

[WeThreeKings]

- Stamkos was hurt in Drouin's age 20 and 21 season.
- Point was a rookie in Drouin's age 21 season

Has he had a constant center for a full season with both Tampa and the Habs? Answer is no. This is not an excuse, it's reality

I showed you that he played with Stamkos, that's a simple fact. Was there times he was hurt when Drouin was there? Yes, but they played together and it isn't disputable.

Brayden Point as a rookie put up 40 pts in 68 games. That's production on par with Drouin's best season ever, and he provided strong defensive impact out the gates, something Drouin has never been able to do ever. So, how is that a hindrance to Drouin?

There's something about having a constant center, and the fact is that, you won't have one, if you can't provide value. Drouin was unable to provide value for any of the centers he played with and dragged the lines down with his terrible defensive play. That's reality.

Coaches can't trust you in the top 6 if you can't produce more than the chances you give up and Drouin can't help but turn pucks over and give no pressure on the back-check or in his own zone.

It's unfortunate, it really is, but he's been a NHL player for 6 seasons now. Yet, he still commits the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

Package Drouin + Mete and 2nd round pick and get the best player you can get for that. Maybe in Colorado ?

Drouin + Alzner vs Sergachev, Radulov and Markov should have been enough to fire Bergevin. Drouin is worse than Radulov for only 1 million less Alzner was way worse than Markov for 1,5 millions less. So Bergevin massively downgrade the team for a 2.5 millions saving while also losing our top prospect for nothing in the process.

I wonder if a Galchenyuk + Sergachev package would have been enough at that time for a signed Tavares or Draisaitl.

 

[CHfan1]

209 points in 349 games ... that isnt a player that "just sucks" He has 2 seasons at over 50 points. Im not the biggest drouin fan in the world but lets not overstate his suckiness. He's a decent, mid-tier, middle six player. He's not an elite player & likely never will be (Despite having a number of skills that make it *seem* like he could be) but he defintely doesnt "suck." Has he had slumps? sure. But he's still a career .60ppg player. That aint terrible in today's nhl.

0.6 would be alright for a mid tier player if he played some good defence. However he is a major defensive liability and scoring 45-50 points a season doesn’t make up for that.

 

[JimboJay]

A career .58 ppg player who's younger than Drouin, drafted at the same spot, was just punted off a contending team as a salary throw-in to get Jason Zucker.

It really isn't anything to care about.

How exactly does this relate?

That player just fell off a cliff scoring 24 points in 59 games. Drouin has continued to score at roughly his career average. Galchenyuk was a salary dump because he's become a dumpster fire.

 

[JimboJay]

0.6 would be alright for a mid tier player if he played some good defence. However he is a major defensive liability and scoring 45-50 points a season doesn’t make up for that.

Your opinion. Still doesnt mean he "sucks" which was the whole point of the post.

 

[The Real Timo]

Package Drouin + Mete and 2nd round pick and get the best player you can get for that. Maybe in Colorado ?

Drouin + Alzner vs Sergachev, Radulov and Markov should have been enough to fire Bergevin. Drouin is worse than Radulov for only 1 million less Alzner was way worse than Markov for 1,5 millions less. So Bergevin massively downgrade the team for a 2.5 millions saving while also losing our top prospect for nothing in the process.

I wonder if a Galchenyuk + Sergachev package would have been enough at that time for a signed Tavares or Draisaitl.

This is so depressing to read. Sigh

 

[Spring in Fialta]

I mean, he's here and let's hope he miraculously figures it out. While I don't think he's awful, he was an awful get and we lost that trade big time. He's 3 years into a 6 year contract. We're past potential at this point. He's 25.

 

[CHwest]

- Stamkos was hurt in Drouin's age 20 and 21 season.
- Point was a rookie in Drouin's age 21 season
- Suzuki was a rookie in Drouin's age 24 season
- Johnson and Domi were the best he's played with. The are not ROR types

Has he had a constant center for a full season with both Tampa and the Habs? Answer is no. Domi would be the closest (18/19 season). This is not an excuse, it's reality

Sure sounds like an excuse. You are blind when it comes to Mr. Heartless.

 

[ahmedou]

 

[Belial]

One player doesn't undo questionable management (See: Edmonton/Buffalo). I hope I'm wrong about him as he's shown time and time again that he can't stick to his own plan with consistency. One thing I do know is I love the way Suzuki plays and I feel for once we have a young player that is mature beyond his years. There's no arguing that we have a solid crop of young players coming into play , I just don't know if Bergevin is the guy to surround them properly. (He wasn't able to surround Price/P.K/Pacioretty properly)

His trades mostly win, the cap looks great....

 

[OldCraig71]

It's known I'm a Bergevin lover but this goes a lot further, Suzuki will be the face of this franchise for decades imo. That trade was somewhat future deciding or something...

 

[CauZuki]

His trades mostly win, the cap looks great....

Simplistic way of looking at things, I can equally say:

- No top 50 point producers.
- No point per game players drafted or developed.
- Trading away a younger D for an older one when we aren't competing.
- No playoff calibre team 4 out of 5 seasons (don't you dare give him credit for pandemic related bs).
- Drouin trade was not a win, imo that one could be as bad as Suzuki/Tatar was for Vegas. young 40+ point LD don't exactly grow on trees. Drouin seems like a liability out there on most nights (just as bad as Chucky, which you destroyed without mercy).
- Holding on to veterans when the team should be rebuilding.
- Wins trades only agaisnt the handful of inadequate GMs (Chiarelli/Chayka/McPhee)

It's easy to be good in your books when you ignore all the very mediocre and only acknowledge the wins. The real question for me is if he keeps winning so much, why are the results not there?

 

[Chr1s97]

Simplistic way of looking at things, I can equally say:

- No top 50 point producers.
- No point per game players drafted or developed.
- Trading away a younger D for an older one when we aren't competing.
- No playoff calibre team 4 out of 5 seasons (don't you dare give him credit for pandemic related bs).
- Drouin trade was not a win, imo that one could be as bad as Suzuki/Tatar was for Vegas. young 40+ point LD don't exactly grow on trees. Drouin seems like a liability out there on most nights (just as bad as Chucky, which you destroyed without mercy).
- Holding on to veterans when the team should be rebuilding.
- Wins trades only agaisnt the handful of inadequate GMs (Chiarelli/Chayka/McPhee)

It's easy to be good in your books when you ignore all the very mediocre and only acknowledge the wins. The real question for me is if he keeps winning so much, why are the results not there?

On the other hand tho
- Not alot of FA want to come play for our team(I know its always the same excuses but its kinda true that MTL is not a market that the FA are attracted to atm)
- In approximatively a decade we had like 2 Top 10 pick + a top 15 pick that feel like a top 10(Caufield)... Its hard to draft/develop a player when you usually have a late draft pick every 20+ overall.
- I was a big Subban fan and he was giving us some great hockey at the time, but honestly Im not shy to say that Weber is a different kind of animal, greant mentor, great leadership and I truely think that this trade is a win for us, no matter if you wanted to win now or you needed leadership for a team under reconstruction Weber was the man in both case and he still have alot of hockey left in him & cap wise it was better for the team. But you right it didnt change or help nothing in the need we had.
- No playoff caliber team 4-5years true, I can give it t you.
- Drouin vs Sergachev was very dumb, dont get me wrong Drouin was one hell of a player with alot of potential, but Mb shouldve did his homework better because you right this trade look very bad, on top of that he did it cause he thought that Drouin could eventually be a center thats even bad, but we call that a gamble it couldve been a fair trade.

I would like to add that its hard for him to bring impact players on the team when you have no interesting assets. From when he got the job to now he never really have any assets to bargain to bring some good payers like he does now. On top of that FA dont want to sign here & you got late draft pick each year. It make it hard to build a competitive team.
Dont get me wrong tho im not a fan of MB, didnt like how he manage some contract, didnt like some players he sign, didnt like the Subban/Weber trade even tho I give some praise, didnt like how long it take tomfet rid of lefebvre, didnt like CJ as his choice of coach, but I gotta admit that he had some good things goin on too, hes an OK GM for now, could be better but could be worse.

and I think that the Vegas trade(suzuki,tatar & norlinder) and the arizona trade (domi for galchy) can make up for the Drouins trade. Btw Drouin still can be a jice 50-60 complimentary player so the trade isnt that bad yet

 

[CauZuki]

On the other hand tho
- Not alot of FA want to come play for our team(I know its always the same excuses but its kinda true that MTL is not a market that the FA are attracted to atm)
- In approximatively a decade we had like 2 Top 10 pick + a top 15 pick that feel like a top 10(Caufield)... Its hard to draft/develop a player when you usually have a late draft pick every 20+ overall.
- I was a big Subban fan and he was giving us some great hockey at the time, but honestly Im not shy to say that Weber is a different kind of animal, greant mentor, great leadership and I truely think that this trade is a win for us, no matter if you wanted to win now or you needed leadership for a team under reconstruction Weber was the man in both case and he still have alot of hockey left in him & cap wise it was better for the team. But you right it didnt change or help nothing in the need we had.
- No playoff caliber team 4-5years true, I can give it t you.
- Drouin vs Sergachev was very dumb, dont get me wrong Drouin was one hell of a player with alot of potential, but Mb shouldve did his homework better because you right this trade look very bad, on top of that he did it cause he thought that Drouin could eventually be a center thats even bad, but we call that a gamble it couldve been a fair trade.

I would like to add that its hard for him to bring impact players on the team when you have no interesting assets. From when he got the job to now he never really have any assets to bargain to bring some good payers like he does now. On top of that FA dont want to sign here & you got late draft pick each year. It make it hard to build a competitive team.
Dont get me wrong tho im not a fan of MB, didnt like how he manage some contract, didnt like some players he sign, didnt like the Subban/Weber trade even tho I give some praise, didnt like how long it take tomfet rid of lefebvre, didnt like CJ as his choice of coach, but I gotta admit that he had some good things goin on too, hes an OK GM for now, could be better but could be worse.

and I think that the Vegas trade(suzuki,tatar & norlinder) and the arizona trade (domi for galchy) can make up for the Drouins trade. Btw Drouin still can be a jice 50-60 complimentary player so the trade isnt that bad yet

I don't disagree with some of your points, it's certainly not black/white as some would have you believe. In all fairness though they actually had 2 top 3 picks and 1 top 9 pick over 7 years, that's better than we've ever had in our whole history. Which is my point, Habs should have kept adding to that by not acquiring middling players to attempt to compete. Signing Alzner,Streit,Kulak,Peca and company worries me as it points to someone who lacks vision. Do you also notice that all his wins come agaisnt the 3 GMs that have a worse track record than him?

I've been following this team since I was 8 (1994) while watching about 90% of games and have seen some bad coaches/GMs and players. However, the longer I've been a fan the further away from success we seem to get. I've seen what a top team looks like and although there are no guarantees (with any scenario), I have a hard time believing in promises when I know it can go wrong so quickly.

I can say I enjoy the young crop of players we have , it seems drafting has improved with the number of quality picks available. KK/Suzuki/Caufield should demonstrate that top 15 picks can be quite valuable. While also taking note of the Romanov/Primeau's of this world. I'm also a big fan of Hillis , think he's going to be really good. I just know the Habs need to keep adding elite players and those are mostly found in the top 10 (yes they exist outside of this reach but Habs have failed far too often for me to believe in this route but surprisingly good at finding round 2+ gems).

I don't mind being called a fake fan if that means I always raise the bar and expectations for this franchise. I can't be impressed by the little things when in the grand scheme we simply havn't been good over the last 5+ years. I certainly don't conflate small wins for great accomplishment and can't help but see the long term effects of all the moves made by our management. Whether it's having a coach that's not right for this team or a GM that can change plans at any moment (in a bad way, reactive to virtue signaling). I do like what we are doing in the AHL for now but then again why did he leave so much incompetence in the AHL for so long? Why did he wait so long to fire Therrien after the worst streak of 50 games in our 100+ year history? I have a hard time trusting when I've seen it go wrong so many times and if that makes me "not a real fan" so be it.

I want to see a dominant team, not one that has to have everything go right just to make the playoffs. The team is mostly young and finished 24th this year , I want them to have playoff success (I obviously see the value), but...

 

[Steve Shutt]

209 points in 349 games ... that isnt a player that "just sucks" He has 2 seasons at over 50 points. Im not the biggest drouin fan in the world but lets not overstate his suckiness. He's a decent, mid-tier, middle six player. He's not an elite player & likely never will be (Despite having a number of skills that make it *seem* like he could be) but he defintely doesnt "suck." Has he had slumps? sure. But he's still a career .60ppg player. That aint terrible in today's nhl.

He's the 9th highest point producer from his draft year (2013). Only 6 forwards with more points (including Domi)

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

He's the 9th highest point producer from his draft year (2013). Only 6 forwards with more points (including Domi)

One of the weakest drafts in a long time

 

[Sorinth]

On the other hand tho
- Not alot of FA want to come play for our team(I know its always the same excuses but its kinda true that MTL is not a market that the FA are attracted to atm)

Yet Gainey was able to sign a top-pairing D in Hamrlik, a top-line winger in Cammalleri (Coming off a ppg season no less), another top-6 winger in Gionta (Coming off a 60 point season). Even Gauthier who is seen as a terrible GM signed Erik Cole who scored 35 goals for us.

Bergevin could have signed Jagr who wanted to come here but Bergevin decided to go with Briere. Jagr put up 67 points and Briere put up 25. Bergevin did sign Radulov who was great for us and right up there with the top players that Gainey signed, yet even then he managed to screw it up. Radulov originally wanted a 2 year deal and we insisted on the 1 year prove you still have it deal and then when he did prove it we played hardball and lost him for nothing.

The FA excuse just doesn't hold much weight when you actually look at what happened, And that doesn't even factor into the fact that being an attractive market for FAs is something that is under the GMs control. He can build a winning team which is usually the #1 or #2 things most UFAs care about. Almost every former player (Excluding the ones we drafted and screwed up development wise) raves about how amazing playing for Montreal is that's a huge selling point in Montreals favour and there are plenty of others.

- In approximatively a decade we had like 2 Top 10 pick + a top 15 pick that feel like a top 10(Caufield)... Its hard to draft/develop a player when you usually have a late draft pick every 20+ overall.

Plenty of other teams have built winning teams with less.

- I was a big Subban fan and he was giving us some great hockey at the time, but honestly Im not shy to say that Weber is a different kind of animal, greant mentor, great leadership and I truely think that this trade is a win for us, no matter if you wanted to win now or you needed leadership for a team under reconstruction Weber was the man in both case and he still have alot of hockey left in him & cap wise it was better for the team. But you right it didnt change or help nothing in the need we had.

It's been discussed to death so I won't rehash it here suffice to say let's agree to disagree on this one.

- No playoff caliber team 4-5years true, I can give it t you.

Which when you factor in the fact that the only success he's had was based on the first 3 years where he did almost nothing to help the team, only aquiring rentals and depth players at best and hiring one of the worst coaches in Habs history and sticking with him for so so long.

I would like to add that its hard for him to bring impact players on the team when you have no interesting assets. From when he got the job to now he never really have any assets to bargain to bring some good payers like he does now. On top of that FA dont want to sign here & you got late draft pick each year. It make it hard to build a competitive team.

This is such BS. Yes the prospect pool under Bergevin completly produced virtually nothing, but that doesn't mean we didn't have interesting assets. We basically did everything we could to devalue our prospects, then waited until they lost all value and then traded them for peanuts. But that doesn't mean they didn't originally have a lot of value. You remember how Bergevin refused to move Tinordi unless he got two 2nd round picks, but then we had Tinordi sit on the bench for a full season and so traded him for nothing.

And if you don't believe me, here's some prospect rankings
https://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/post-season-prospect-rankings-2012-13/page/3
#2: Galchenyuk
#24: Beaulieu
#49: Gallagher

https://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/preseason-prospect-rankings-2013-14
#1: Galchenyuk
#35: Gallagher
#36: Beaulieu

https://www.hockeysfuture.com/prospect-rankings/postseason-prospect-rankings-2014-15/page/5
#46: Sherbak

So we had top ranked prospects, we had vets that would've been interesting to trade like Plekanec, or Markov. We had players that in those first 2 years would've had decent value like Emelin, Eller, and we had stud players that could've commanded a great return like Pacioretty, Subban, Price.

So the idea that we had nothing is complete BS, we had top prospects, we had interesting young NHLers, we had solid vets that can always get you something, and we had some star players.

And that doesn't even factor in the fact that most big trades that happened didn't even cost that much for the acquiring team.

Dont get me wrong tho im not a fan of MB, didnt like how he manage some contract, didnt like some players he sign, didnt like the Subban/Weber trade even tho I give some praise, didnt like how long it take tomfet rid of lefebvre, didnt like CJ as his choice of coach, but I gotta admit that he had some good things goin on too, hes an OK GM for now, could be better but could be worse.

and I think that the Vegas trade(suzuki,tatar & norlinder) and the arizona trade (domi for galchy) can make up for the Drouins trade. Btw Drouin still can be a jice 50-60 complimentary player so the trade isnt that bad yet

The results speak for themselves, in the 5 years before Bergevin we made the playoffs 4 out of 5 years, and then with minimal changes made the playoffs another 3 straight years. Yet now we are looking at missing the playoffs 4 out of the past 5 years (If this year counts as a miss like it normally would have and still might).

Looking at the individual moves doesn't even matter, under Bergevin the team fell off a cliff.