Marc Bergevin: Draft? Edition (XIV)

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Runner77

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Talent and certainly character are not constants, and the cream only rarely rises to the top.

Rarely? I doubt that. If a player has talent and character, he mostly finds a path to success no matter which organization he is with. Every org. has good players for a reason, even if they don't have an optimal or the best development people.
 

DAChampion

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If a player has talent and character, he mostly finds a path to success no matter which organization he is with.

There's very little reason to think that this is true. It's not consistent with what we know about biology and psychology, it's not consistent with what we see in other areas of life, and it's not science as it makes no testable predictions.

It also makes two faulty premise, that talent and character exist independently of environment. I can see why you'd think that of talent -- it's a common myth -- but that's obviously not true of character.
 
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Runner77

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There's very little reason to think that this is true. It's not consistent with what we know about biology and psychology, it's not consistent with what we see in other areas of life, and it's not science as it makes no testable predictions.

It also makes two faulty premise, that talent and character exist independently of environment. I can see why you'd think that of talent -- it's a common myth -- but that's obviously not true of character.

I evidently simplified. It was not my intent to get into a full blown discussion about biology, psychology and whatever other discipline that may be brought in. I have no evidence that such studies exist in specific relation to 18 year olds who have received extensive training, coaching and preparation in the lower leagues upon making their jump to the NHL.

Also, the environments we are discussing are mostly copies of each other as all org. operate for the most part, by relying on similar precepts when it comes to development, a vast majority of coaches are known entities that have either played in the NHL or have been learned their trade from NHL organizations and several of these development people eventually move about to another NHL team, further promoting a bank of knowledge and methods that are familiar to most in the field.

I think the environmental factors you mention are much more of a factor when one is looking at younger individuals, who are vulnerable, may be victimized by an array of socio-economic factors. I think those players who are uber-talented and show a profile exhibiting strength of character, will have an edge and will advance in a similar fashion no matter what org. they are in, for all of the foregoing.

Also, Drouin was in Tampa for 3 years -- how come they weren't able to fully and properly develop him if their environment was so favorable?
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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There's very little reason to think that this is true. It's not consistent with what we know about biology and psychology, it's not consistent with what we see in other areas of life, and it's not science as it makes no testable predictions.

It also makes two faulty premise, that talent and character exist independently of environment. I can see why you'd think that of talent -- it's a common myth -- but that's obviously not true of character.

From; Dude, where's my frontal cortex
By Robert Sapolsky

I'm just quoting here

- Frontal cortex maturation is around 25

- Part of the traits developing in the frontal cortex between 15-25 are executive functions such as decision making

- the main process happening between 15-25 is myelination and neuronal pruning (better efficiency), also called neural darwinism.

- the prefrontal cortex's dorsal-lateral section is mainly focused on decision making (along with the ventral-medial part, which is emotional appraisal and regulation), and this is one of the last parts to get pruned, late in adolescence.

-Of all the regions in the brain, the PFC has the most transcription factors (for genetic expression), the most varied kind of TFs. In a nutshell, of the entire body, the cells of the PFC are the least constrained by genetics.

Also: Adolescence is marked (15 to 25) by a greater sensibility to social acceptance or exclusion.

A player may have confidence from the getgo, but considering adolescence and what it entails, it's predictable that not many will have this developed when they arrive.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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I think Bergevin's mistake about Markov happened at the start of his tenure. He had several years to plan for a replacement and didn't. There is no way he should have been playing hardball when he lacked a Plan B on first pairing D. Markov was fairly advanced in age by the time he was due for a new deal and not as effective -- but, Bergevin still had no one in tow, no one to groom, no one to take his place. We still don't have that bona fide first pairing D on the left side. It's a gross mismanagement of assets.

It was so badly mismanaged that Bergevin, in a panic move, rushed to sign Alzner and as I recall, he largely negotiated against himself by offered more than he needed to, in order to sign him. Alzner jumped early for a reason. If Bergevin had been paying attention to the way Alzner had been used in the season prior to becoming a UFA, he would have found out how much the player had slowed and he was thought of so little, that he was benched during several games of the playoffs.
He's a terrible GM. This is no longer debatable. He needs to go.
 

the

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Hard to say. All we know is the base plus performance was offered. I believe Bergevin said that to the media and it makes sense. It was probably games played and pts.

Lets say Bergevin gives him $6M for one year and Markov plays less games and has more drop in production in his age 38/39 season? What do Habs fans say then? Bergevein was an idiot for giving into Markov's demands? I don't believe Bergevin was wrong for pushing the base plus performance but you brought up a good point about what is the performance targets. We can't debate that cause we don't know?

The only way I think fans would have been upset towards Bergevin for signing Markov 1 year 6m is if we had a competitive team and Markov’s contract was preventing us to acquire a star player via trade.

You can cut your loss after 1 year and can renegotiate a better deal 12 months later if things don’t work out. It’s not a big deal, I don’t understand why Bergevin was being stubborn with him after everything that Andrei Markov did for this team.
 
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DAChampion

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From; Dude, where's my frontal cortex
By Robert Sapolsky

I'm just quoting here

- Frontal cortex maturation is around 25

- Part of the traits developing in the frontal cortex between 15-25 are executive functions such as decision making

- the main process happening between 15-25 is myelination and neuronal pruning (better efficiency), also called neural darwinism.

- the prefrontal cortex's dorsal-lateral section is mainly focused on decision making (along with the ventral-medial part, which is emotional appraisal and regulation), and this is one of the last parts to get pruned, late in adolescence.

-Of all the regions in the brain, the PFC has the most transcription factors (for genetic expression), the most varied kind of TFs. In a nutshell, of the entire body, the cells of the PFC are the least constrained by genetics.

Also: Adolescence is marked (15 to 25) by a greater sensibility to social acceptance or exclusion.

A player may have confidence from the getgo, but considering adolescence and what it entails, it's predictable that not many will have this developed when they arrive.

What about when Sylvain Lefebvre encouraged players younger than 25 to go fight and thereby get concussed, does that affect all parts of the brain or just the pre-frontal cortex? Can it affect things that many here describe as intrinsic to the player and independent of development, such as talent and hockey IQ?

@Runner77 I will respond to your post on a couple hours.
 
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Tyson

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Bergevin trading Sergachev for Drouin can be considered damning at this point. I am however not sure how damning we should consider it:

- There was likely pressure from Molson to bring in a local boy;
- Sergachev was underperforming as a prospect at the time, and he might not have turned out as good if developed by the Habs;
- There's a selection effect in that it's Bergevin's worst trades in 8 years. How does it compare to the worst trades of most franchises in the past years? Is it worse or level with expectations? Every franchise eventually makes a bad trade.
Under performing as a prospect? He had 4 NHL games under his belt and was a teenager
 

Grate n Colorful Oz

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What about when Sylvain Lefebvre encouraged players younger than 25 to go fight and thereby get concussed, does that affect all parts of the brain or just the pre-frontal cortex? Can it affect things that many here describe as intrinsic to the player and independent of development, such as talent and hockey IQ?

@Runner77 I will respond to your post on a couple hours.

Sounds like a rhetorical question, my friend. Aside from obvious overall brain damage, you'd have to ask precisions from a psychologist, but I'm pretty sure the psychological ramifications of such a behavior towards a player, pertaining to his overall development, cannot be good at all.
 

DAChampion

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Under performing as a prospect? He had 4 NHL games under his belt and was a teenager

Fans weren't happy with Sergachev and many here were saying that he lacked the hockey IQ to succeed. After the trade, fans went onto the TB board to say that they were glad that the Habs dealt Sergachev while he still had value. His points total went down in his D+1 year and he didn't dominate the WJC.

Tampa Bay then took a chance on him. They played him at a high albeit sheltered level in his D+2 year.
 

DAChampion

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I evidently simplified. It was not my intent to get into a full blown discussion about biology, psychology and whatever other discipline that may be brought in. I have no evidence that such studies exist in specific relation to 18 year olds who have received extensive training, coaching and preparation in the lower leagues upon making their jump to the NHL.

Also, the environments we are discussing are mostly copies of each other as all org. operate for the most part, by relying on similar precepts when it comes to development, a vast majority of coaches are known entities that have either played in the NHL or have been learned their trade from NHL organizations and several of these development people eventually move about to another NHL team, further promoting a bank of knowledge and methods that are familiar to most in the field.

I think the environmental factors you mention are much more of a factor when one is looking at younger individuals, who are vulnerable, may be victimized by an array of socio-economic factors. I think those players who are uber-talented and show a profile exhibiting strength of character, will have an edge and will advance in a similar fashion no matter what org. they are in, for all of the foregoing.

Also, Drouin was in Tampa for 3 years -- how come they weren't able to fully and properly develop him if their environment was so favorable?

There are two thought experiments that show up in undergraduate textbooks.

- If everybody has the same environment, then all variations are due to genetic differences.
- If everybody has the same genetics, then all variations are due to environmental differences.

These are cute (and instructive !) thought experiments, in practice neither of them ever describes the real world. You use the first approximation in your post, you imply that most teams are copying each other's environment. I don't think that's true, anymore than two kids in two different schools get the same education simply because they're both in school.

The Habs development system was clearly problematic on several grounds. We have seen players get bounced origin from position to position to position with no rhyme or reason. Guys like Louis Leblanc were played on the third line because the team wanted to give more minutes to Zack Stortini. Players get bounced around between the AHL and NHL. Players get promoted to the NHL so that they can watch from the stands for dozens of games in a row. Players get rushed, a list which includes Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, Mete, De La Rose, etc. Players are encouraged to fight and get concussions but are discouraged from scoring. The team hires AHL goalies with .880 SV% preventing the Rocket from playing playoff games. The Habs don't have an ECHL affiliate, which guys like Ellis and Avtsin would have benefited from. The Habs have either lacked or continue to lack a skating coach, absurd. No, none of that is universal.

We also know that both of Lefebvre and Therrien were bullies. That is well documented from multiple sources. That matters is a lot with young people aged 18, 19, 20. It can really get to them. We all know this. It can break people. It did break people. We know that some players walked away from hundreds of thousands of dollars to get out of the Rocket's toxic work environment.

I will leave you with an anecdote about chess players. Yes, chess. When a newbie chess player plays the game, he makes a lot of dim mistakes. That's because there are 32 pieces on 64 squares, holy f*** that's a lot of combinations. What a nightmare. But as chess players improve, they don't improve because they can suddenly acquire the ability to visualize more squares at once. They improve because they start remembering configurations as individual units of thought. So a knight adjacent to a pawn becomes unit rather than three, and so on onto higher-order configurations. The same thing happens with cab drivers learning streets, kids learning to read, or scientists learning concepts. I'm going to go out on a lunatic limb here and argue that the sane thing happens with hockey players, and thus for what we naively call "hockey IQ" to develop, players need more ice time in which they can perform. Conversely, those skills will degrade if they're watching the game from the he stands, or playing nine minutes a game and discouraged from focusing on offense.

Here's a random CNN headline, which provides a trivial example:
Of the 15 biggest school districts in the country, only one is offering schools the option of in-person instruction
Now that is bloody complicated. It has a lot of concepts. A young kid would have a hard time with it, but not an adult. Because for an adult, "school district" is one concept rather than two, and similarly with "in-person instruction". You can argue that "1 out of 15" is replaced with "rare". All of this leads to greater comprehension, greater "reading IQ".

Now imagine a hockey player who gets a lot of ice time in a lot of situations. He's just going to learn a lot more. For much more complex players involving not just other players and where there are, but how they're moving and even moving together. There is no substitute for ice time. The people saying that Kotkaniemi doesn't need ice time, that he just needs to gain muscle, are out of their minds. He needs ice time, confidence, and muscle, in that order.

Re: Drouin
Jonathan Drouin had his best season in Tampa and has since been declining with the Habs who made him play at center for a year. It also the case that acknowledging the importance of environment does not mean downplaying the importance of genetics and of environment up to the relevant point in time. Drouin might simply not have what it takes.
 

Runner77

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Fans weren't happy with Sergachev and many here were saying that he lacked the hockey IQ to succeed. After the trade, fans went onto the TB board to say that they were glad that the Habs dealt Sergachev while he still had value. His points total went down in his D+1 year and he didn't dominate the WJC.

Tampa Bay then took a chance on him. They played him at a high albeit sheltered level in his D+2 year.

I'd argue Tampa didn't take much of a chance on Sergachev since they had enough info on Drouin's shortcomings. Plus, they didn't need to protect Sergachev in the expansion draft but would have had to protect Drouin if they hadn't made the deal. Not to mention a 2nd round pick conditionally going from the Habs if Sergachev didn't play a certain number of games in that first season and a 6th going the other way. Yzerman more than covered himself in making the deal.
 

Runner77

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Re: Drouin
Jonathan Drouin had his best season in Tampa and has since been declining with the Habs who made him play at center for a year. It also the case that acknowledging the importance of environment does not mean downplaying the importance of genetics and of environment up to the relevant point in time. Drouin might simply not have what it takes.

Drouin didn't decline cause he played center for a year. He had three years with Tampa before he became a Hab. If Tampa's environment was so impressionable upon him, some of what he learned should have carried over. It didn't cause as you aptly mention, he simply doesn't have what it takes, which goes back to my original point. Sergachev looks like he has what it takes.
 

WeThreeKings

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Drouin didn't decline cause he played center for a year. He had three years with Tampa before he became a Hab. If Tampa's environment was so impressionable upon him, some of what he learned should have carried over. It didn't cause as you aptly mention, he simply doesn't have what it takes, which goes back to my original point. Sergachev looks like he has what it takes.

Theres one thing that we need to consider with Drouin.

When he was drafted and didnt make the NHL like MacKinnon, he pouted and basically did nothing for the first quarter season with the Mooseheads.

He also left the AHL team he was in assignment for.

There's a lot of rumors about his behaviour from his time in Halifax that seem to connect with his treatment/behavior in Tampa Bay.

Drouin had a favorable development environment from a team perspective but the human element here is that he was/is a diva and it is a hard to develop and learn when you pout, refuse to report, and wont accept the advice and direction you are given.

You can set all development conditions to even and there is a human cost. Which is why nature and nurture is a debate, they both contribute and in the case of Drouin, his nature was his undoing. Where in the Bergevin development environment, everyone failed, to varying degrees and regressed. So we know that while we didnt have many cant miss guys, those who could have been more than they were, were flat out destroyed by Lefebvre and Therrien.
 
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Grate n Colorful Oz

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Theres one thing that we need to consider with Drouin.

When he was drafted and didnt make the NHL like MacKinnon, he pouted and basically did nothing for the first quarter season with the Mooseheads.

He also left the AHL team he was in assignment for.

Theres a lot of stuff I know about Drouin from his time here in Halifax that I can't share.

Drouin had a favorable development environment from a team perspective but the human element here is that he was/is a diva and it is a hard to develop and learn when you pout, refuse to report, and wont accept the advice and direction you are given.

You can set all development conditions to even and there is a human cost. Which is why nature and nurture is a debate, they both contribute and in the case of Drouin, his nature was his undoing. Where in the Bergevin development environment, everyone failed, to varying degrees and regressed. So we know that while we didnt have many cant miss guys, those who could have been more than they were, were flat out destroyed by Lefebvre and Therrien.

I wouldn't say that. He wasn't born a diva. That sentence needs way more specificity to make it valid:

His behavioral development and inherited values up to that point is his ondoing.

It's never just nature or just nurture. When it comes to behavior, it's both.
 
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Habs Halifax

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The only way I think fans would have been upset towards Bergevin for signing Markov 1 year 6m is if we had a competitive team and Markov’s contract was preventing us to acquire a star player via trade.

You can cut your loss after 1 year and can renegotiate a better deal 12 months later if things don’t work out. It’s not a big deal, I don’t understand why Bergevin was being stubborn with him after everything that Andrei Markov did for this team.

He was being stubborn yes. But it's part of what GM's do. A little disrespect towards Markov yes... no doubt. But I see it as two guys being stubborn and remember, Markov was his own agent. Not sure what the performance bonuses targets would be but $4M plus $2M in signing bonuses was not a bad offer and I'm sure it was around that.

Also... It's impossible to know what other potential moves were going to surface in that season so it's smart to be conservative with the cap space. Looking back in hindsight, we know that there were no moves on the table and we sucked that year. So yeah, it makes Bergevin look worse.

I see blame to be pointed on both sides to be honest... in Markov's case anyways.
 

OldCraig71

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Theres one thing that we need to consider with Drouin.

When he was drafted and didnt make the NHL like MacKinnon, he pouted and basically did nothing for the first quarter season with the Mooseheads.

He also left the AHL team he was in assignment for.

Theres a lot of stuff I know about Drouin from his time here in Halifax that I can't share.

Drouin had a favorable development environment from a team perspective but the human element here is that he was/is a diva and it is a hard to develop and learn when you pout, refuse to report, and wont accept the advice and direction you are given.

You can set all development conditions to even and there is a human cost. Which is why nature and nurture is a debate, they both contribute and in the case of Drouin, his nature was his undoing. Where in the Bergevin development environment, everyone failed, to varying degrees and regressed. So we know that while we didnt have many cant miss guys, those who could have been more than they were, were flat out destroyed by Lefebvre and Therrien.
I would love it if you would share some of it with me.
 
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OldCraig71

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I wouldn't say that. He wasn't born a diva. That sentence needs way more specificity to make it valid:

His behavioral development and inherited values up to that point is his ondoing.

It's never just nature or just nurture. When it comes to behavior, it's both.
Giving someone like that 33 million dollars and a 6-year deal screams great judgment no? He was given a pat on the back by Bergevin for being an asshole and guess what? He is still the same guy!
 

Habs Halifax

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Giving someone like that 33 million dollars and a 6-year deal screams great judgment no? He was given a pat on the back by Bergevin for being an asshole and guess what? He is still the same guy!

$5.5M for 6 years was the right thing to do though. Imagine how you would feel if we gave him $7M? Frustrating with what he providing when we know he's got more to give.

Drouin going to have two good years to end his current contract and we going to pay him more. Get ready
 

OldCraig71

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$5.5M for 6 years was the right thing to do though. Imagine how you would feel if we gave him $7M? Frustrating with what he providing when we know he's got more to give.

Drouin going to have two good years to end his current contract and we going to pay him more. Get ready
Letting Radulov the mercenary walk over a million dollars was also the right thing to do according to many people on this board as well. He should have been given a show-me deal like the one that Domi received, we have talked about this before. I am not holding my breath about Drouin's potential breaking out, his on-ice play prohibits him from getting to the next level and it will have to change drastically for him to get to the next level.

Edit: The right thing to do was to leave him in Tampa.
 

Habs Halifax

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Letting Radulov the mercenary walk over a million dollars was also the right thing to do according to many people on this board as well. He should have been given a show-me deal like the one that Domi received, we have talked about this before. I am not holding my breath about Drouin's potential breaking out, his on-ice play prohibits him from getting to the next level and it will have to change drastically for him to get to the next level.

Edit: The right thing to do was to leave him in Tampa.

One day Drouin will play with a legit top 2C... someone who is physical, skates well, and has some skill (ROR type). It might be on the Habs or with another team. That's when we get to see what he really can do. Soft wingers need the right center. This is how I see things with Drouin. Focusing on his flaws and ignoring context of how he can excel is not necessary and provides zero value to our Habs. It's actually negative energy and a black cloud following him around.

We all know his flaws and we knew this even when he was on that playoff run and solid age 21 season with Tampa... He's a soft but fast skating skilled winger. No need to get into target mode and throw him under the bus. If we lost the trade cause Drouin is who he is and Sergachev turns into a top pairing D, blame Bergevin... don't take it out on Drouin.

You trade Drouin? Who's the next one on the target list? A Shaw was not wrong about calling out Habs fans.
 

OldCraig71

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One day Drouin will play with a legit top 2C... someone who is physical, skates well, and has some skill (ROR type). It might be on the Habs or with another team. That's when we get to see what he really can do. Soft wingers need the right center. This is how I see things with Drouin. Focusing on his flaws and ignoring context of how he can excel is not necessary and provides zero value to our Habs. It's actually negative energy and a black cloud following him around.

We all know his flaws and we knew this even when he was on that playoff run and solid age 21 season with Tampa... He's a soft but fast skating skilled winger. No need to get into target mode and throw him under the bus. If we lost the trade cause Drouin is who he is and Sergachev turns into a top pairing D, blame Bergevin... don't take it out on Drouin.

You trade Drouin? Who's the next one on the target list? A Shaw was not wrong about calling out Habs fans.
If Drouin were to ever get another shot it will probably be as a reclamation project and he will get the benefit of the doubt because of his draft position, he might even end up in Seattle as a Krak head, lol I would love that. Far away from the unfair pressures of Montreal and the negative drama he would finally be free to show what he can do. If we still had Sergachev this team would be in a much better position right now and we all know it. We are not going to agree on this so it is what it is.
 

DAChampion

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Letting Radulov the mercenary walk over a million dollars was also the right thing to do according to many people on this board as well. He should have been given a show-me deal like the one that Domi received, we have talked about this before. I am not holding my breath about Drouin's potential breaking out, his on-ice play prohibits him from getting to the next level and it will have to change drastically for him to get to the next level.

Edit: The right thing to do was to leave him in Tampa.

The people who referred to Radulov as a "mercenary" are beyond ridiculous. The correct term is "free agent", it's his right to get an extra 5 or 10 or 15 million if it's available, and he'd be a moron not to. His first loyalty should be to himself and to his family.
 

OldCraig71

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The people who referred to Radulov as a "mercenary" are beyond ridiculous. The correct term is "free agent", it's his right to get an extra 5 or 10 or 15 million if it's available, and he'd be a moron not to. His first loyalty should be to himself and to his family.
He did what most would do in the same situation. Bergevin fell flat on his face that summer and we have paid for it ever since.
 
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