Marc Bergevin: At the End o'da Day

[Habs Halifax]

The reason why I keep bringing this to Price as the main equalizer all the time is that according to stats the D and the team performed almost equally defensively for the last 4 seasons.

I mean it's not like he was facing 2 times more shots or something in 17/18, he was just bad...

Agreed.

Prospect pool is not even comparable IMO, and the team is young...

We're heading in the right direction.

Also agree. It's hilarious how some people want to compare 4th, 5th, 6th rounds picks from what we had in 2012 to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks today. I mention names like Scherbak, DLR, Juulsen, Mete and the are compared to Dumont, Ellis, Nygren. They say it's the same type of hope. lol.

7 top 100 picks in the 2018 draft compared to 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. It's comical how they overlook this and think the prospect pool is the same today vs 2012.

 

[417]

Prospect pool is not even comparable IMO, and the team is young...

We're heading in the right direction.

I'd rather wait for the prospect pool part...I been fooled too many times thinking Prospect A was going to be so awesome.

As far as heading in the right direction. Maybe.

But that's an issue if we're FINALLY headed in the right direction, 6-7yrs after he took over as GM.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Price vs Primeau: Primeau is a few years away yet but he looks just as promising as Price did when he was a prospect. Will we be lucky he turns into a top 10 NHL goalie? Time will tell but he does look good. Looking forward to watching him at the world juniors this year with team USA. The other thing to note is Price is still on the right side of 35 and he is not melting away. He is still on our team last time I checked. The combo of Price still on our roster and only 31 year this with a prospect like Primeau in the pipeline is something that trumps what we had in 2012 IMO.

Wait what? I just stopped there.

That's just ridiculous... Price by the time he was 21 years old won the WJC MVP and gold medal and the calder cup (AHL) + Playoff MVP. He was also considered one of the best goaltender prospect and he was ranked top prospect in the Hockey News future watch.

Although Primeau is younger than 21 I would be highly surprised if he achieve anything Price achieved at the same age.

I mean Price was inexperienced and had issue and was almost traded instead of Halak but he is head and shoulder above Primeau who is a nice surprise but no where even close to the young version of Price.

 

[Bryson]

Our lineup game 1 of 2012-2013 season

Pacioretty-Desharnais-Cole
Bourque-Plekanec-Gionta
Galchenyuk-Prust-Gallagher
Moen-White-Armstrong

Extras: Eller, Blunden

Markov-Emelin(*)
Gorges-Diaz
Bouillon-Kaberle

Extra: Weber
*Subban in contract holdout

Compare this cast to whatever lineup you want to come up with that will start game 1 of this season.

Seems like they have a lot of the same strengths (few) and weaknesses (many).

But sure, let's act like things were so much better then lol

Are you friggin kidding me? A team with a young Norris and Vezina entering their prime? I take that over what we have now any day of the week.

PK wins the Norris that year... leaves him out of the lineup. Eller scores 30 points in 46 games.... has him as an extra. Must have been looking at the game where Therrien scratched him for no good reason. Spare parts Eller was T-4th leading scorer on the team that year. Therrien made Desharnais our team's #1C instead.

Again for posterity... the following team was attainable just by drafting and adding to the core he inherited. It's what we could have had had we not a GM that was incompetent and made excuses. But please tell everyone how the following was not possible and the collapse was unavoidable.

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Radulov
Terevainen-Eller-Gallagher
Debrincat-Danault-Lehkonen
Scherbak-McCarron-Hudon

Sergachev-Subban
Markov-Petry
Girard-Pateryn

 

[Habs Halifax]

Wait what? I just stopped there.

That's just ridiculous... Price by the time he was 21 years old won the WJC MVP and gold medal and the calder cup (AHL) + Playoff MVP. He was also considered one of the best goaltender prospect and he was ranked top prospect in the Hockey News future watch.

Although Primeau is younger than 21 I would be highly surprised if he achieve anything Price achieved at the same age.

I mean Price was inexperienced and had issue and was almost traded instead of Halak but he is head and shoulder above Primeau who is a nice surprise but no where even close to the young version of Price.

Primeau is not 21 yet and Price is still on our team as a 31 year old. Sorry, I was very clear by saying the combo of having Price still on our team and a guy like Primeau in the pipeline trumps just Price in 2012. You had hope for Price in 2012 and although Price was older in 2012 vs Primeau today, I have the same type of hope with Primeau today vs Price at age 18.

What happens if Primeau wins a gold medal for team USA in the next world juniors? What does he have to do at the same age point to make have hope in him like the hope we had in Price?

 

[Belial]

I'd rather wait for the prospect pool part...I been fooled too many times thinking Prospect A was going to be so awesome.

As far as heading in the right direction. Maybe.

But that's an issue if we're FINALLY headed in the right direction, 6-7yrs after he took over as GM.

Building through the draft takes time...

Hudon was drafted in 2012 and he just made the team last season...

 

[417]

Are you friggin kidding me? A team with a young Norris and Vezina entering their prime? I take that over what we have now any day of the week.

As I said...some of the elements of that team were good, others weren't.

PK wins the Norris that year... leaves him out of the lineup. Eller scores 30 points in 46 games.... has him as an extra. Must have been looking at the game where Therrien scratched him for no good reason. Spare parts Eller was T-4th leading scorer on the team that year. Therrien made Desharnais our team's #1C instead.

- I didn't leave Subban out - he's right there in the post you quoted
- Eller was an extra to start game 1 of the 2012-2013 season

These are the facts, i'm not responsible for their conclusion. I wasn't the head coach, this is the lineup he had for game 1 that season.

Again for posterity... the following team was attainable just by drafting and adding to the core he inherited. It's what we could have had had we not a GM that was incompetent and made excuses. But please tell everyone how the following was not possible and the collapse was unavoidable.

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Radulov
Terevainen-Eller-Gallagher
Debrincat-Danault-Lehkonen
Scherbak-McCarron-Hudon

Sergachev-Subban
Markov-Petry
Girard-Pateryn

I'm going to pray for you tonight.

Like Jesus, Allah & Budhha type prayers

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Primeau is not 21 yet and Price is still on our team as a 31 year old. Sorry, I was very clear by saying the combo of having Price still on our team and a guy like Primeau in the pipeline trumps just Price in 2012. You had hope for Price in 2012 and although Price was older in 2012 vs Primeau today, I have the same type of hope with Primeau today vs Price at age 18.

What happens if Primeau wins a gold medal for team USA in the next world juniors? What does he have to do at the same age point to make have hope in him like the hope we had in Price?

Price was selected 5th overall and Primeau 7th round although draft ranking does not mater in the longrun. It does mater when looking at prospect and Price was no question more highly regarded at 17,18 and now 19 years old Primeau.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

Price in 2012 or Price 2018.
Pacioretty 2012 or Pacioretty 2018
Subban 2012 or Weber 2018
Galchenyuk 2012 or Domi 2018
Plekanec 2012 or Drouin 2018
Markov 2012 or Petry 2018

In 2012 the players were Young, elite and less paid and nearly healthy. There is a world apart between Price then and Price now with his injuries and massive contract. Pacioretty is about to be trade or get a fat contract also a world apart same for Subban then and Weber now. If you Don't see that, you are blind.

2012 had a bright future ahead of them and could contend for 5 or 6 years with the right moves but Bergevin did no re-tooling (trading Markov and Plekanec) and no buying so the the team fell short of what it should have been.

2018 is heading toward a re-tooling trade Pacioretty or maybe a rebuilding if Bergevin see the light. I prefer a team ready to contend than a team ready to rebuild.

 

[Milhouse40]

Poehling should not be compared to McCarron. Poehling was ranked mid 1st round and McCarron was ranked 2nd round heading into their draft years. Poehling can skate and has a great 200' game. McCarron was big, had limited offensive, and could not skate well. Terrible comparison IMO.

Not even close to guys like Mittelstadt, Thomas, or Borgstrom? I disagree. Poehling might not have as much offensive ability but his 200' game ability to be a shut down center with some offensive skill is grossly overlooked by you.

Poehling is a fringe grade A prospect. He had a great draft+1 year and I think we got a solid future 2nd line or 3rd line center (worse case) at this stage. If Poehling played in the CHL, he would look very similar to Thomas. Poehling also had similar stats to Mittelstadt in NCAA as well.

Not even close? That is ridiculous

Well on a bigger stage, Mittlestadt had 11 points in 7 games at the u20 this year while Poehling had 3.
Do you know who Patrick Harper is? Outproduce Poehling in that tournement too.

First thing you need in order to be a potential top 6 center in the NHL is offensive output.
Last center who was highly overhype for his 200 foot game was Jacob De La Rose.

Prospect: Unless they are McDavid, Eichel, Matthews...until they play in the NHL, they are nothing more than hope and dreams. Now let's get back to reality. We don't have top 6 center now, next year and the next after that.

Despites having a much better prospect pool than the Habs at center, St-Louis still got what they needed now.

 

[417]

Price in 2012 or Price 2018.
Pacioretty 2012 or Pacioretty 2018
Subban 2012 or Weber 2018
Galchenyuk 2012 or Domi 2018
Plekanec 2012 or Drouin 2018
Markov 2012 or Petry 2018

In 2012 the players were Young, elite and less paid and nearly healthy. There is a world apart between Price then and Price now with his injuries and massive contract. Pacioretty is about to be trade or get a fat contract also a world apart same for Subban then and Weber now. If you Don't see that, you are blind.

2012 had a bright future ahead of them and could contend for 5 or 6 years with the right moves but Bergevin did no re-tooling (trading Markov and Plekanec) and no buying so the the team fell short of what it shoild have been.

2018 is heading toward a re-tooling trade Pacioretty or maybe a rebuilding if Bergevin see the light. I prefer a team ready to contend than a team ready to rebuild.

The point is not to selectively pick which players you'd take in each year vs the other...

The point is too look at the organization, as a whole, at this point today and when Bergevin took over to see what the difference is.

The team has the same needs today, as it did when he took over.

- weak centre ice
- not enough goal scoring
- lack of high end talent
- suspect defence
- questionable prospect pool

These are indictments on his predecessors AND an indictment on Bergevin himself.

Back then, the team maybe had better individual pieces that today's team can't compare too (Subban being prime example). But as evidenced by Bergevin, having individual pieces without a viable plan, is pretty much useless.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Building through the draft takes time...

Hudon was drafted in 2012 and he just made the team last season...

2012/2013: Galchenyuk and Gallagher
2013/2014: Bournival
2014/2015: Beaulieu
2015/2016: Ghetto
2016/2017: Lehkonen
2017/2018: Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen

We are going to be inserting more in the coming years. Takes time to recover from those 2008-2011 draft years

 

[groovejuice]

Are you friggin kidding me? A team with a young Norris and Vezina entering their prime? I take that over what we have now any day of the week.

PK wins the Norris that year... leaves him out of the lineup. Eller scores 30 points in 46 games.... has him as an extra. Must have been looking at the game where Therrien scratched him for no good reason. Spare parts Eller was T-4th leading scorer on the team that year. Therrien made Desharnais our team's #1C instead.

Again for posterity... the following team was attainable just by drafting and adding to the core he inherited. It's what we could have had had we not a GM that was incompetent and made excuses. But please tell everyone how the following was not possible and the collapse was unavoidable.

Pacioretty-Galchenyuk-Radulov
Terevainen-Eller-Gallagher
Debrincat-Danault-Lehkonen
Scherbak-McCarron-Hudon

Sergachev-Subban
Markov-Petry
Girard-Pateryn

How the hell did this happen? That's a rhetorical question BTW.

 

[Belial]

Agreed.



Also agree. It's hilarious how some people want to compare 4th, 5th, 6th rounds picks from what we had in 2012 to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks today. I mention names like Scherbak, DLR, Juulsen, Mete and the are compared to Dumont, Ellis, Nygren. They say it's the same type of hope. lol.

7 top 100 picks in the 2018 draft compared to 8 top 100 picks from 2008-2011. It's comical how they overlook this and think the prospect pool is the same today vs 2012.

Too bad they will finally get it in like 5 years.

Seriously you can hate on Bergevin but he's building a really solid pipe of prospects right now.

Next year we have 9 picks, and if he can trade Pacioretty and Byron for another 2 first round picks and plus we will be killing it...

 

[Habs Halifax]

Well on a bigger stage, Mittlestadt had 11 points in 7 games at the u20 this year while Poehling had 3.
Do you know who Patrick Harper is? Outproduce Poehling in that tournement too.

First thing you need in order to be a potential top 6 center in the NHL is offensive output.
Last center who was highly overhype for his 200 foot game was Jacob De La Rose.

Prospect: Unless they are McDavid, Eichel, Matthews...until they play in the NHL are nothing.

Well, Poehling was used as a shut down center. I clearly told you this in the last post. You grossly overlook Poehling 200' game and he does have offensive skills. You said it was not even close remember. I disagree 100%!

Poehling has the tools to be a 2nd or 3rd line center. Something tells me you are twisting things and trying to say I think Poehling is a #1C. You compared Poehling to McCarron... your opinion on Poehling is dumb.

Until they play NHL games they are nothing? Ok we are done. You are talking nonsense.

 

[417]

Too bad they will finally get it in like 5 years.

Seriously you can hate on Bergevin but he's building a really solid pipe of prospects right now.

Next year we have 9 picks, and if he can trade Pacioretty and Byron for another 2 first round picks and plus we will be killing it...

Should have been the M.O. as soon as he took over as GM.

 

[Bryson]

No of course not, the team rebounded mostly because it got back its best skater in Andrei Markov...his presence alone was enough to make that team a contender. Not to mention that it was a crazy year given it was a lockout 48 game schedule, a lot of players weren't prepared to play hockey that season, everything from that year was skewed as far as i'm concerned. The true nature of the Habs wasn't when they were having success through games 1-40 in 2012-2013.

The true Habs was the team that started to show cracks the last dozen games or so of that season and then got annihilated by a very ordinary Ottawa Senators team

So yeah....

The team got eliminated by Ottawa...sure. How many teams win the Cup on their first go round? The team finished 1st in their division that year, made it to the ECF the following year. Instead of adding players to help make the team a contender and push them into the SC finals, he sat on his hands. We saw how adding a single top 6 talent like Vanek completely transformed the team. He then proceeded to trade his Norris defenseman and best playoff perfomer. That is what started the collapse of the Canadiens. Not some mythical or fictional 2008-2011... but trading your actual best players. No team can survive trading away of it's best players.

We were top of our division when Bergevin took over. Now it's Tampa Bay, Toronto and Boston. They are going to proceed to make us their bitch for many years to come. Bend over boys.. the pain train a coming!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Too bad they will finally get it in like 5 years.

Seriously you can hate on Bergevin but he's building a really solid pipe of prospects right now.

Next year we have 9 picks, and if he can trade Pacioretty and Byron for another 2 first round picks and plus we will be killing it...

I don't hate Bergevin but I do want a change. I respect what he is trying to do and how he has not mortgaged the future. But I don't trust him anymore and I think he opens his mouth a bit too much. There are several comments made recently that I don't like.

1) In a press conference, he told the media to tell the Sabres GM to call me if the price lowers. This is not how you gain respect in the NHL and these types of things should not be said.
2) Habs fans don't know Domi cause he plays out west. He watched video and he knows more about him. Stupid comment and it's insulting to the Habs fan base.

As far as the youth movement, that is a positive and Bergevin has done well with this. However, the one move he made that pissed me off is his management of Galchenyuk. I hated the 3 year deal and I hate that we gave up on him. Domi is a good young player under team control but we gave up the player with more upside. We should have at least got a 2nd round pick on top of Domi

Totally agree with you on how our prospect pool looks and what it can look like in a few years. If Bergevin don't last, the next GM will inherit this

 

[Belial]

2012/2013: Galchenyuk and Gallagher
2013/2014: Bournival
2014/2015: Beaulieu
2015/2016: Ghetto
2016/2017: Lehkonen
2017/2018: Hudon, DLR, Scherbak, Mete, Juulsen

We are going to be inserting more in the coming years. Takes time to recover from those 2008/2011 draft years

Yes! I completely agree with you.

People are too short minded around here IMO. Jumping to conclusions way too fast when it comes to the draft and developing players. Bergevin literally started from scratch...

The pipeline is just starting to look decent as we speak and I think it will get better and better in the future.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Yes! I completely agree with you.

People are too short minded around here IMO. Jumping to conclusions way too fast when it comes to the draft and developing players. Bergevin literally started from scratch...

The pipeline is just starting to look decent as we speak and I think it will get better and better in the future.

We lack grade A prospects but we have a few fringe ones. We do have a shit load of grade B prospects that will surprise and disappoint. Quantity is our strength and the probability of generating NHL players is working in our favor.

 

[OldCraig71]

Yes! I completely agree with you.

People are too short minded around here IMO. Jumping to conclusions way too fast when it comes to the draft and developing players. Bergevin literally started from scratch...

The pipeline is just starting to look decent as we speak and I think it will get better and better in the future.

Bergevin actually ended up at scratch.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Bergevin failed on his first 6 years there is no way you can say otherwise...

No stanley cup and at the beginning of another re-tool.

I mean you can say that 2008 to 2011 draft were bad (fair point) I cannot say that 2012 to 2015 are way better. Even though Bergevin had significantly many more quality picks. 2012 draft was below average, 2013 is looking like below average, 2014 is below average and 2015 too early to tell but nothing outstanding

2016, 2017 and 2018 are looking better though.

 

[417]

The team got eliminated by Ottawa...sure. How many teams win the Cup on their first go round? The team finished 1st in their division that year, made it to the ECF the following year. Instead of adding players to help make the team a contender and push them into the SC finals, he sat on his hands. We saw how adding a single top 6 talent like Vanek completely transformed the team. He then proceeded to trade his Norris defenseman and best playoff perfomer. That is what started the collapse of the Canadiens. Not some mythical or fictional 2008-2011... but trading your actual best players. No team can survive trading away of it's best players.

We were top of our division when Bergevin took over. Now it's Tampa Bay, Toronto and Boston. They are going to proceed to make us their ***** for many years to come. Bend over boys.. the pain train a coming!

None that I know of...

Especially no one that just finished 3rd last the year prior to him taking over.

Hence why he should of built from the ground up as soon as he became GM, not try to patch holes, which is what he did.

The team had strong building blocks (Price, Subban, Pacioretty, 3rd overall pick/Galchenyuk), but it's veteran core at the time (Plekanec, Gomez, Gionta, Gorges) was average at best.

That would of been the opportune time to start fresh with our building blocks.

 

[Belial]

Should have been the M.O. as soon as he took over as GM.

It actually was his plan if you don't remember... But once again, Price, no injuries, lucky scoring and it gave the illusion that the team was actually contending...

To Bergevin's credit though, he didn't really mortgage anything to try and go all in. A couple of second round picks is not the end of the world.

I don't hate Bergevin but I do want a change. I respect what he is trying to do and how he has not mortgaged the future. But I don't trust him anymore and I think he opens his mouth a bit too much. There are several comments made recently that I don't like.

1) In a press conference, he told the media to tell the Sabres GM to call me if the price lowers. This is not how you gain respect in the NHL and these types of things should not be said.
2) Habs fans don't know Domi cause he plays out west. He watched video and he knows more about him. Stupid comment and it's insulting to the Habs fan base.

As far as the youth movement, that is a positive and Bergevin has done well with this. However, the one move he made that pissed me off is his management of Galchenyuk. I hated the 3 year deal and I hate that we gave up on him. Domi is a good young player under team control but we gave up the player with more upside.

Totally agree with you on how our prospect pool looks and what it can look like in a few years. If Bergevin don't last, the next GM will inherit this

I respect your opinion but this is small details that are not really important to me.

Bergevin is clearly well viewed and respected around the league as he keeps trading day and night.

Some of his trades are questionable but I hate this whole useless vitriol going on this board before we even have a conclusion.

The comment about Domi I found extremely on point as after reading this board since the trade, the majority are clearly in for a surprise.

I noticed you always brought up that Chucky deal but a deal is made between 2 sides... Who said Chucky wanted a longer deal?

 

[Habs Halifax]

It actually was his plan if you don't remember... But once again, Price, no injuries, lucky scoring and it gave the illusion that the team was actually contending...

To Bergevin's credit though, he didn't really mortgage anything to try and go all in. A couple of second round picks is not the end of the world.



I respect your opinion but this is small details that are not really important to me.

Bergevin is clearly well viewed and respected around the league as he keeps trading day and night.

Some of his trades are questionable but I hate this whole useless vitriol going on this board before we even have a conclusion.

The comment about Domi I found extremely on point as after reading this board since the trade, the majority are clearly in for a surprise.

I noticed you always brought up that Chucky deal but a deal is made between 2 sides... Who said Chucky wanted a longer deal?

I hope you and Bergevin are right about Domi. I know he will bring energy but I like shooting forwards who can score. This roster is full of pass first type players cause they don't have confidence in their shot. Domi adds to this. But lets see how he does. I would have no problem trying him at center too. Patch/Domi/Gallagher could be a very good line if Domi can play center