Marc Bergevin: At the End o'da Day

[groovejuice]

Man... this is what it's come to. We're debating which side of the Hindenburg caught fire first.

I don't see it that way. I don't buy into Molson sharing the bias and bad faith that Bergevin displays. If you do, that's fine, but it's certainly an important distinction in my mind.

 

[417]

Because 2008-2011 happened under Gainey/Gauthier's tenure which is what we are comparing. And whether you like it or not, drafting goes hand in hand with development. What you do with those players after you draft them matters...

How does drafting Gallagher in 2010 equate to 4 CONSECUTIVE YEARS of bad drafting? Can you not count or something?

So let me get this straight...

Ending up with Brendan Gallagher, in 4 CONSECUTIVE YEARS OF DRAFTING, is good???

That's ONE pick out of 25 picks between 2008 to 2011.

This is good to you?

And you have the audacity to ask me if I can count?

The team was trending upwards under the leadership of Gainey. Gauthier, Gillett and Boivin. Darkest day in Habs history was the day the team was sold back to the Molsons because the team was on the cusp of being a contender.

LMAO!!!!!!

Yes Poile has been a GM for a long time. It's called experience. When an employer looks at resumes he picks the candidate with the most experience, not least for a reason.

What does this have to do with anything????????

Why are you moving the goalposts to 2017-2020? Why not compare the more palpable 2012-17? What do we have to show for those draft years?

Sigh....

Maybe you should worry less about how I can count and more you're ability to comprehend what you read.

the reason I brought up 2017-2020, was as a hypothetical...in the sense that IF the habs were to produce the same results for the next 4 drafts as they did between 2008 to 2011, it would negatively effect the Habs in the future, like it did in the past.

I can't believe this has to be explained to you

And yes, 2012-17 isn't anything to write home about either...but those years have yielded the following players

Alex Galchenyuk, Charles Hudon, Jacob De la Rose, Artturi Lehkonen, Sven Andrighetto, Mikhail Sergachev, Victor Mete

Not to mention the following players who aren't quite NHL'ers today, but surely will be

Michael McCarron, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen

Vs.

Brendan Gallagher, Nathan Beaulieu

Stop

This isn't about Bergevin vs Gainey/Gauthier...they're all bad as far as i'm concerned, i'll let you split heirs over whose less bad. I couldn't careless.

Again, just don't give me this bull**** about how a team having 4 consecutive bad drafts doesn't have any ripple effects simply because you don't like the conclusion, that you've reached yourself, even if it's an erroneous one.

 

[Lshap]

I don't see it that way. I don't buy into Molson sharing the bias and bad faith that Bergevin displays. If you do, that's fine, but it's certainly an important distinction in my mind.

I'm just judging results and trying NOT to judge personality styles of people I don't know and have never seen at work. Subban's contract negotiations were tough, but not unusual given the hardball tactics used with many big names represented by many hardball agents. We overlay all these motives, moods, and biases onto Bergevin and Molson, when the truth is we don't have a clue. We think we know these guys based on public soundbites, but we know nothing about how they're perceived by their peers or their actual tone when in their office, actually doing their jobs.

But the bottom line is, who cares? Whether they're fantastic human beings or vindictive SOBs, we'll never know, anymore than we know what Sam Pollock's biases were and who he screwed out of a fair contract. All that matters is whether they succeed or fail.

 

[GHJimmy]

This is the main Marc Bergevin thread..

I mean the hatred for him as a GM. Read the first post, the thread.

 

[theghost1]

I hope Bergevin understands that the first day of camp the golf tournament that every question the media is going to ask is.....why did you not tell the fans about the Weber injury....why did you not trade Pacioretty.

 

[Censored Toad]

I hope Bergevin understands that the first day of camp the golf tournament that every question the media is going to ask is.....why did you not tell the fans about the Weber injury....why did you not trade Pacioretty.

I really hope that the media does their job and actually asks good "tough" questions and not a bunch of soft ball BS....

Granted I don't know why I should expect anything much to come of it. Even if marc looks like a total ass, he will still be the GM.

Tough Questions: Marc babbles about trades are hard, can't help that FA don't wanna come here, he tried super hard, New attitoood
Easy Questions: Defense is better then last year, Gotta make Da playoffs, anything can happen then, Attitood is different this year

Regardless of the question, the answer will still be S**t. Its always pooo!

 

[Runner77]

I don't think Molson gets involved much in hockey decisions. I think Bergevin tells Molson what he's going to do, and Geoff just goes along with it because he hired him for those exact reasons.
So once you no longer think the guy you put in charge of leading those decisions, you're not going to just dictate to him what to do because that's not what he does.

Out of the two men, Bergevin is the one that looks and sounds shady and full of crap. Molson looks like the puppet, not the other way around.

The public wrath that has ensued in the last three years has made it such that ownership can't simply trust Bergevin to take the critical decisions without verifying more closely, asking more questions, resorting to outside sources for validation (eg last year, Geoff was spotted in a restaurant with once at least with someone from the hockey world) .

It's not a matter of dictating but of ensuring that what is being promised, is getting done. How else do you explain that Geoff promised a thorough personnel review that led to some very close personnel to Bergevin getting canned and it got done vs. when Bergevin was asked what would happen in the off season, he said it would just be an annual review "as usual". You will concur that what happened this summer is nothing like what happened in the prior off seasons under Bergevin.

So I'm led to believe that Geoff has input in the decision-making -- if he wants a "no stones left unturned" personnel review, then he's going to get one.

Now, as to why Geoff is doing this, my theory is simple. There is too much term left in Bergevin's contract and ownership doesn't want to eat it. So ownership is punting it forward, perhaps hoping to burn off another year before making a move. Just my opinion.

 

[Rapala]

Show me a list of the worst and how the habs compare to that. You said among the worst in nhl history, not among the worst in the last 10 years. Show me that your claim is valid.

Also, if the Pens are as bad as the Habs were 2008-2011 drafting, why weren't they handcuffed in their performances from 2012-2016 where they won 2 cups? Why hasn't their team gotten progressively worse since 2012? It's almost like what you draft in previous and future years, plus what you acquire helps offset draft performance. hmmmmmmm.

Seems like the likely explanation is that MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral trades that didn't improve the club but only wasted prime years of his core while not adding talent to it and by having poor development from 2012-2016, a period that saw other teams add to their cores through the draft.

Absolutely correct.
We all knew what had to happen after our ECF. Dare I say most expected it to happen. No rumour went without discussion here at the time "A little old Lady was overheard saying" It was hilarious and the most fun I've ever had on these boards. Unfortunately MB wanted to sit on his hands. "He took it all away" just to spite PK?

 

[Rapala]

Fun fact; if Bergevin doesn't get fired by next April, he will pass Gainey in terms of tenure for a habs gm and only behind Selke/Pollock/Savard for modern habs GM tenure.

Still time to pass Reggie on the All-Time worst GM ranking list.
Much to continue to work towards MB.

 

[Bryson]

Show me a list of the worst and how the habs compare to that. You said among the worst in nhl history, not among the worst in the last 10 years. Show me that your claim is valid.

Also, if the Pens are as bad as the Habs were 2008-2011 drafting, why weren't they handcuffed in their performances from 2012-2016 where they won 2 cups? Why hasn't their team gotten progressively worse since 2012? It's almost like what you draft in previous and future years, plus what you acquire helps offset draft performance. hmmmmmmm.

Seems like the likely explanation is that MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral trades that didn't improve the club but only wasted prime years of his core while not adding talent to it and by having poor development from 2012-2016, a period that saw other teams add to their cores through the draft.

Andy is on a roll today!

The public wrath that has ensued in the last three years has made it such that ownership can't simply trust Bergevin to take the critical decisions without verifying more closely, asking more questions, resorting to outside sources for validation (eg last year, Geoff was spotted in a restaurant with once at least with someone from the hockey world) .

It's not a matter of dictating but of ensuring that what is being promised, is getting done. How else do you explain that Geoff promised a thorough personnel review that led to some very close personnel to Bergevin getting canned and it got done vs. when Bergevin was asked what would happen in the off season, he said it would just be an annual review "as usual". You will concur that what happened this summer is nothing like what happened in the prior off seasons under Bergevin.

So I'm led to believe that Geoff has input in the decision-making -- if he wants a "no stones left unturned" personnel review, then he's going to get one.

Now, as to why Geoff is doing this, my theory is simple. There is too much term left in Bergevin's contract and ownership doesn't want to eat it. So ownership is punting it forward, perhaps hoping to burn off another year before making a move. Just my opinion.

I hope that @Lshap reads this as this is how I see it too. Bergevin's incompetence and fan uprising has forced Molson to be more hands on than he normally might otherwise have been. This is his business afterall and he is the one responsible for extending Bergevin to that ridiculous contract. Like I said, if Molson had waited just 1 more month or 2 Bergevin never gets that extension.

Even if Molson is only clued in on the "broad strokes" why should a man with the hockey knowledge of a casual fan have input as to whether or not Price should be signed until he's almost 40? Does he know anything about the goalies we have in the minors? Does he know what the market value is of trading such a goalie? What about Pacioretty? Should he be traded or stay long term?

I think that the Press Conference shows that Molson is getting more involved... for better or worse.

 

[Bryson]

So let me get this straight...

Ending up with Brendan Gallagher, in 4 CONSECUTIVE YEARS OF DRAFTING, is good???

That's ONE pick out of 25 picks between 2008 to 2011.

This is good to you?

And you have the audacity to ask me if I can count?


LMAO!!!!!!



What does this have to do with anything????????


Sigh....

Maybe you should worry less about how I can count and more you're ability to comprehend what you read.

the reason I brought up 2017-2020, was as a hypothetical...in the sense that IF the habs were to produce the same results for the next 4 drafts as they did between 2008 to 2011, it would negatively effect the Habs in the future, like it did in the past.

I can't believe this has to be explained to you

And yes, 2012-17 isn't anything to write home about either...but those years have yielded the following players

Alex Galchenyuk, Charles Hudon, Jacob De la Rose, Artturi Lehkonen, Sven Andrighetto, Mikhail Sergachev, Victor Mete

Not to mention the following players who aren't quite NHL'ers today, but surely will be

Michael McCarron, Nikita Scherbak, Noah Juulsen

Vs.

Brendan Gallagher, Nathan Beaulieu

Stop

This isn't about Bergevin vs Gainey/Gauthier...they're all bad as far as i'm concerned, i'll let you split heirs over whose less bad. I couldn't careless.

Again, just don't give me this bull**** about how a team having 4 consecutive bad drafts doesn't have any ripple effects simply because you don't like the conclusion, that you've reached yourself, even if it's an erroneous one.

Lmao brings up Gallagher... continues to claim habs had 4 CONSECUTIVE bad drafts... ok.

No 1st in 2008 because Gainey, the city, the team and us fans went all-in in 2008 for the centennial and for all intents and purposes Habs could have done some damage if not for injuries.

Beaulieu, Tinordi, Pateryn, Nygren were all traded or lost for scraps and that doesn't include the complete botch job of trading a Norris Trophy defenseman but somehow we are led to believe that some hypothetical draft picks from 2008-2011 were supposed to be the cornerstone of this franchise and kept them from completely sucking LMAO!! You actually believe this nonsense? The only thing extra draft picks/prospects would have done is give Bergevin more cannon fodder to throw down the drain in the ol' proverbial garbage disposal. What's next? You're just one step away from blaming Bergevin's failed 7 year tenure on the loss of McDonagh.

 

[Koivu11]

I hope Bergevin understands that the first day of camp the golf tournament that every question the media is going to ask is.....why did you not tell the fans about the Weber injury....why did you not trade Pacioretty.

He’ll just dodge the questions and be arrogant as usual.

 

[groovejuice]

Andy is on a roll today!



I hope that @Lshap reads this as this is how I see it too. Bergevin's incompetence and fan uprising has forced Molson to be more hands on than he normally might otherwise have been. This is his business afterall and he is the one responsible for extending Bergevin to that ridiculous contract. Like I said, if Molson had waited just 1 more month or 2 Bergevin never gets that extension.

Even if Molson is only clued in on the "broad strokes" why should a man with the hockey knowledge of a casual fan have input as to whether or not Price should be signed until he's almost 40? Does he know anything about the goalies we have in the minors? Does he know what the market value is of trading such a goalie? What about Pacioretty? Should he be traded or stay long term?

I think that the Press Conference shows that Molson is getting more involved... for better or worse.

Half-assed oversight is half-assed. Molson getting involved now means very little to a team decimated by Bergevin's follies, due to Molson's previous inaction.

We've already seen the impotency of more Molson oversight by watching Galchenyuk being moved one for one for Domi, a poor return indeed.

It's not a stretch to suggest that a change of GMs now could very well abbreviate the term of getting the Habs back to respectability, but also give the public added interest and optimism.

Showing Bergevin the door now, and replacing him with savant like BriseBois could conceivably energize the fanbase to the degree where the added income generated would offset the money paid to Bergevin.

Even better, the dark cloud of arrogant failure hanging over the team would dissipate. A Renaissance of sorts for the team and the supporters who desperately need it.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The team was trending upwards under the leadership of Gainey. Gauthier, Gillett and Boivin.

LMAO!!!!!!

What are you laughing at? He's right;



The drop between 2009 and 2013 can easily explained by the team's MVP being injured for 2 seasons worth over the span of 3 seasons. A transition period also compounded by Hamrlik on his last few drops of gas left in the can.

The surge in 2013 was mainly due to Markov's return, along with the arrival of Goat pick Gallagher, Bergevin easy pickings of top3 pick Galchenyuk, and the rise of Gainey picks Price, Subban and Pacioretty.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I reject the conspiracy theory that Molson is keeping Bergevin to save 5 million a year.

However, one that I'd be inclined to believe is that Molson wants the next GM to come in during a fresher period. A lot of potential candidates might be afraid to come in now, as the Habs are five years away from competing. They know that they'll be excruciated by the media if they come in now.

This is not a conspiracy and it's not 5million, it's closer to 15 million. Molson has always been cheap. If MB had 1 or 2 years left he'd 100% be a goner.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't agree. Bergevin was perfectly willing to go to arbitration and all that that entails, and give Subban an iron clad path to UFA in 2 years. He was playing hardball for the second time with Subban and this time was after a ******** Norris. This is typical Bergevin behavior with players he doesn't like personally, regardless of their value to the team.

Then he f***ing traded him before it was too late. Of course Molson stepped in there. There was never a time when MB valued Subban as a 9million dollar player.

 

[groovejuice]

Then he ****ing traded him before it was too late. Of course Molson stepped in there. There was never a time when MB valued Subban as a 9million dollar player.

I don't think Bergevin ever truly valued Subban, period. He should be put on trial for that.

 

[mitchmagic]

I don't think Bergevin ever truly valued Subban, period. He should be put on trial for that.

I believe that he truly did not intend to trade Subban but there was probably a rumbling that Weber was available and he creamed his jeans immediately and offered our best player for who he considers to be the best D in the NHL. There wasn't any thinking. There wasn't any evaluation. Just a quick emotional decision, most likely.

 

[groovejuice]

I believe that he truly did not intend to trade Subban but there was probably a rumbling that Weber was available and he creamed his jeans immediately and offered our best player for who he considers to be the best D in the NHL. There wasn't any thinking. There wasn't any evaluation. Just a quick emotional decision, most likely.

That could very well be true. It doesn't excuse his treatment of Subban, though. He treated him as a lower class person and certainly not as one who was quite likely his best player.

 

[DAChampion]

Bergevin had been rumoured to be trading Subban that summer.

Supposedly Edmonton offered Draisatl+, bit Bergevin turned it down.

 

[DAChampion]

This is not a conspiracy and it's not 5million, it's closer to 15 million. Molson has always been cheap. If MB had 1 or 2 years left he'd 100% be a goner.

It fulfills the definition of conspiracy.

 

[Rapala]

This is not a conspiracy and it's not 5million, it's closer to 15 million. Molson has always been cheap. If MB had 1 or 2 years left he'd 100% be a goner.

Add in MT and CJ and give me a total.
It should give us a good idea of Cap Space's current deal.

 

[Lshap]

Andy is on a roll today!



I hope that @Lshap reads this as this is how I see it too. Bergevin's incompetence and fan uprising has forced Molson to be more hands on than he normally might otherwise have been. This is his business afterall and he is the one responsible for extending Bergevin to that ridiculous contract. Like I said, if Molson had waited just 1 more month or 2 Bergevin never gets that extension.

Even if Molson is only clued in on the "broad strokes" why should a man with the hockey knowledge of a casual fan have input as to whether or not Price should be signed until he's almost 40? Does he know anything about the goalies we have in the minors? Does he know what the market value is of trading such a goalie? What about Pacioretty? Should he be traded or stay long term?

I think that the Press Conference shows that Molson is getting more involved... for better or worse.

Thanks. I agree completely that Molson's totally unqualified to make hockey decisions. That's precisely why it doesn't compute that he's involved in the transactions. I mean... jokes aside here... no owner is dumb enough to treat his billion-dollar organization like a vanity project. The scientists who designed the Space Shuttle let the pilots take them into space; the guys who build medical equipment let the surgeons perform heart surgery. Yeah, the stakes aren't quite as high for a hockey trade, but each wrong move costs millions.

Molson sits on a board of very rich people who take the Montreal Canadiens very seriously -- I can imagine the expressions around the table as he explains how he stepped in, made trades, and neogitated contracts.

 

[the]

I hope Bergevin understands that the first day of camp the golf tournament that every question the media is going to ask is.....why did you not tell the fans about the Weber injury....why did you not trade Pacioretty.

Thank god we are now in the new era of transparency and better communication with the fans.

 

[PaulD]

I believe that he truly did not intend to trade Subban but there was probably a rumbling that Weber was available and he creamed his jeans immediately and offered our best player for who he considers to be the best D in the NHL. There wasn't any thinking. There wasn't any evaluation. Just a quick emotional decision, most likely.

Day before the no trade kicked in? I think he hoped to trade him for some time.

Preds GM heard PK might be available.....and he was.