Marc Bergevin: At the End o'da Day

[Habs Halifax]

No I don't. I don't think it affected MB's ability to improve the team at all. He had enough assets to package to fill in holes instead of waiting for said assets to fully demonstrate that they would not develop any further and then off-loading them for peanuts.

I also don't think he was prevented form improving the team considering the number of second round picks he inherited. He could have easily moved Beaulieu, Tinordi, Leblanc in packages while their value was still high as green 1st rounders.

MB's inability to improve the club stemmed from his unwillingness to make anything more than lateral moves, his inability to create trade packages to acquire talent he needed and by having a poor development program that resulted in almost 0 players drafted from 2012-2016 making an impact on the club.

And yes, the drafting in 2008-2011 was offset by the fact that the Habs drafted Pacioretty and Subban the year prior, traded for Eller and acquired Pateryn.

Not to mention that when MB arrived, he had Bournival, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi and Nygren in the pipeline that he could have easily used as trade bait, plus several second rounders.

Sorry, Bournival, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Nygren were not grade A prospects. Beaulieu was the closest thing to it but he was needed in the pipeline so trading him would of left another hole. It's weird that you think these types of prospects would get us the major pieces we needed that prevented the Habs from going on deep playoff runs.

What do you think we can get for Hudon, Lehkonen, Bitten, Ikonen, Brook, Fleury, Scherbak, DLR today? You think the Panthers are going to trade us Borgstrom for any of those players? Cause that's the equivalent to the names you mentioned. Go look at what it took to get Carter, Richards, ROR, RyJo when they were traded. Habs did not have the assets to spare to get in on those trades.

Imagine if we traded Sergachev, our 2017 1st, and more for Duchene? What a disaster trade that would of been. No Sergachev and no Poehling and we have a pending UFA in Duchene. But wait, you think players like Bornival, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Nygren were going to get assets like Duchene.

Lets look at Mete, Scherbak, Hudon, DLR, Juulsen, Lehkonen who are NHL ready prospects and showing some promise. Who do you think we can get for these guys in a trade for a top 6 center which is what we need?

How about Schenn... imagine if we traded our 2017 1st and 2018 1st for him. No Poehling and no Kotkaniemi. Even if the 2018 pick was protected, we would have Kotkaniemi but lose our 2019 1st round pick.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't think it's a stretch. I heard a pundit say that it would cost in the neighborhood of $45 million for the Habs to clean house on their management. That's no drop in the bucket.

1) That's over multiple seasons.
2) That's assuming whoever comes in automatically fires more people right away, which is anything but a certainty.
3) Trade Price, you manage to save 40M even with those cost you just mentioned. If the team is going to suck anyways, no need to carry that 84M contract.

It's really not as bad as your painting it to be.

My contention had to do with how the firings of this off season are very clearly consistent with what Geoff Molson has promised and not the routine annual review that Bergevin downplayed. Ducharme and Bouchard are not typical Bergevin hirings when you look at Bergevin's track record and the type of individuals he tends to surround himself with (players that played with him or in his era). Given the foregoing, it doesn't look to me that Bergevin brought in new staff on his own. Plus, Bergevin never fired anyone in the prior 5 off seasons.

I don't know. You view this way. I definitely don't. The firing of Sly was way overdue, people have been talking about it for many years. It is no different than how people were discussing firing Therrien when it finally happened. I don't think Bergey wanted to fire Therrien, and I don't think he wanted to fire Sly, but I think he understood it needed to happen. It's also a way for him to point the finger towards someone else.
Speaking of Bouchard, Bergevin said he had his eyes on him for a number of years now. Of course, he could be full of crap, but Bergey definitely did not sound like someone unhappy with the hiring of these two guys.

I don't know what prompted the Galchenyuk trade but would not be surprised if ownership obtained outside feedback, just like businessmen typically do in the corporate world during difficult times. I think Bergevin's leash got a lot shorter since last season and there appears to me that ownership has been more hands-on since, both by their declarations via Geoff Molson which have been the most far-reaching in 6 years and by the actual personnel moves that were made this off season.

Nothing other than change prompted the deal. Just like Bergevin wanted to move Subban two years ago, just like he traded Serge last year, and now he moved Galch.
Bergevin got a free ride over the first three seasons here. He rode a success wave mostly thanks to what he inherited. But sticking with status quo, not overly committing in a direction, was eventually going to bite him in the ass and it did in his 4th year. After that season, people were upset with how he just let the team collapse and do nothing. He was also running out of time with status quo attitude, he needed to make a splash, so he traded Subban. Failure. Signing Radu bought him some love back, but it didn't yield much results. His off season after 5th season was a massive failure after he was excited with Drouin-Serge trade. It did not provide the hoped results again.
Now he moves Galch. It's just another trade man, that's it that's all.

Molson has been on the sideline and let him do pretty much whatever the hell he wants. This has not changed because we hired Bouchard.

 

[Runner77]

I don't know. You view this way. I definitely don't.

That much is clear. Thanks for your replies.

 

[Habs Halifax]

ONE player making it out of 25 is NOT GOOD

it's shocking to me that this has to be explained to you.


This probably marks around the time you were allowed to start watching hockey...

That's great and all, they didn't have a 1st round pick in 2008...it's not an excuse for not drafting ONE SINGLE PLAYER out of that 2008 draft.

Kristo, Qualier, Missiaen, Trunev and Johnson.

You wouldn't accept it if I was making excuses for Bergevin...stop making excuses for other GM's because you like them better.


No, actually I don't...this is just another one of those 417 fantasies you've dreamed up


I didn't talk about acquiring extra draft picks...

I just talked about hitting on more than 1 draft pick out of 25 drafted players.


You just don't get it eh?

It doesn't matter how many times I explain to you that this is NOT about making excuses for Bergevin...the 2008-2011 drafts are NOT excuses for Marc Bergevin not succeeding at his job.

Do you understand those words? Read them slowly....

But to completely dismiss that as a factor for where the organization is at today, is just plain dumb. It has nothing to do with the identity of the General Manager.

The Montreal Canadiens performance at the draft table between 2008-2011 was TERRIBLE...and that FACT can remain completely independent of Marc Bergevin's performance as a GM in the subsequent years.

Stop trying to make a link between both and then trying to pass it off as my doing. Those 2 things are completely independent from each other for me.

Grow the **** up!

Don't bother, it's a waste of time. He don't realize that only Gallagher and Beaulieu from 4 years of drafting is very bad drafting. He thinks that we had this gold mine in our prospect pool after Price, Subban, Patch in 2012. They will change the focus back to 2007 and try to say that the 4 years after that draft don't matter and did not affect our team moving forward from 2012

 

[417]

What are you laughing at? He's right;



The drop between 2009 and 2013 can easily explained by the team's MVP being injured for 2 seasons worth over the span of 3 seasons. A transition period also compounded by Hamrlik on his last few drops of gas left in the can.

The surge in 2013 was mainly due to Markov's return, along with the arrival of Goat pick Gallagher, Bergevin easy pickings of top3 pick Galchenyuk, and the rise of Gainey picks Price, Subban and Pacioretty.

Perhaps it can also be explained by Gainey's terrible trade for Gomez...maybe McDonagh could of helped bridge the gap between Markov's absence & Hamrlik's decline?

I remember exactly what things were like in "Habland" by the time Gainey/Gauthier resigned/fired.

Things at the end of 2011-2012 were trending down at the same rate as they are trending down now in 2017-2018...that's exactly what your graph shows here.

And just before anyone gets an idea i'm trying to make Bergevin look better than others.

Gainey, Gauthier & Bergevin are all the same to me. You guys want to split heirs over who was slighty "less worse"...go ahead.

I don't think it matters, none of them have had any vision that would realistically bring this team a Stanley Cup...they ALL failed in acquiring that elusive #1C, all of them built teams based on having goalies play above their heads for them to have any shot.

 

[Runner77]

C'mon Bergy ... you know you want to ...

 

[Habs Halifax]

Having Weber back won't change the fortunes of this garbage team, I'm afraid.

I too believe that the ownership group must be pushing Molson. To what degree, we won't know for a while.

It's clear to me the ownership group is not concerned. They don't believe our team is garbage and will continue to move forward and allow Bergevin to tinker with making improvements here and there and try to make the playoffs yearly. After next season, Bergevin is owed about $6-$7.5M. It's a better pill to swallow vs $10M+ if we already fired him.

I really do think Galchenyuk is the one who Bergevin started with and will be the one who ends Bergevin as the Habs GM. Galchenyuk is going to play center and thrive in the desert and Bergevin is the one who traded the center we needed. No doubt Galchenyuk needs to mature but I saw a lot of that last year. I think this kid puts up solid production in his mid 20's to 30's.

A rebuild on the fly while we still try to make the playoffs is the real plan... like it or not.

 

[theghost1]

Molson is a complete and utter moron why is he letting Bergevin make the Galchenyuk trade and the eventual Pacioretty trade then fire him ....just fire him now and let the new GM trade Pacioretty,Weber,Price.

 

[417]

Don't bother, it's a waste of time. He don't realize that only Gallagher and Beaulieu from 4 years of drafting is very bad drafting. He thinks that we had this gold mine in our prospect pool after Price, Subban, Patch in 2012. They will change the focus back to 2007 and try to say that the 4 years after that draft don't matter and did not affect our team moving forward from 2012

Oh he realizes it...

It's just he thinks that acknowledging it, absolves Marc Bergevin of wrong doing.

He's using his own paranoia against himself.

For me, the Habs could of struck out on every single drafted players for 25 straight years before Marc Bergevin became GM, it doesn't excuse some of the decisions he's made as a GM of this team, so it's not about that.

It's about acknowledging that such a poor performance at the draft table, consecutively, is going to hurt ANY team. To suggest it's irrelevant simply because one is afraid it covers Bergevin's *** is so lame.

If I wanted to absolve Bergevin, I would explicitly say "it's not his fault"...but i've never said this.

 

[Kriss E]

Sorry, Bournival, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Nygren were not grade A prospects. Beaulieu was the closest thing to it but he was needed in the pipeline so trading him would of left another hole. It's weird that you think these types of prospects would get us the major pieces we needed that prevented the Habs from going on deep playoff runs.

What do you think we can get for Hudon, Lehkonen, Bitten, Ikonen, Brook, Fleury, Scherbak, DLR today? You think the Panthers are going to trade us Borgstrom for any of those players? Cause that's the equivalent to the names you mentioned. Go look at what it took to get Carter, Richards, ROR, RyJo when they were traded. Habs did not have the assets to spare to get in on those trades.

Imagine if we traded Sergachev, our 2017 1st, and more for Duchene? What a disaster trade that would of been. No Sergachev and no Poehling and we have a pending UFA in Duchene. But wait, you think players like Bornival, Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi, Nygren were going to get assets like Duchene.

Lets look at Mete, Scherbak, Hudon, DLR, Juulsen, Lehkonen who are NHL ready prospects and showing some promise. Who do you think we can get for these guys in a trade for a top 6 center which is what we need?

How about Schenn... imagine if we traded our 2017 1st and 2018 1st for him. No Poehling and no Kotkaniemi. Even if the 2018 pick was protected, we would have Kotkaniemi but lose our 2019 1st round pick.

He could have traded Galchenyuk, Subban, Eller, Markov, Plekanec, to make improvements, couldn't he? Seeing how we either lost or traded those guys anyways....and guess what, we couldn't even get ourselves a center with all that quality hardware moved. Bravo.
Oh, and we might add Patches to that list shortly.
Stop with the goddamn excuses already.

 

[NobleSix]

C'mon Bergy ... you know you want to ...

lmao didn't that little munchkin just sign that deal in may?

 

[417]

For anyone who still doubts how bad Bergevin is, should look at these numbers:

Since everybody always focus on the mistakes done by the GMs, and usually just focus on this, rather than see the full picture, yes yes, we know, all the GMs we've had commited huge mistakes, Serge Savard included.

So what I wanted to know is which GM was the best at acquiring talent, whether through the draft, trades or free agency. Since both Gauthier and Savard did less than 3 years and Houle, Gainey and Bergevin all had more than 6 years, I compiled a top 5 for the formers and a top 10 of the latters of all their best offensive acquisitions and their production with the team.

The number of top 5 and top 10 picks in brackets after the GM's PPG is based on what (drafted by the team) picks were needed to acquire those players.

In italic are players who went on to subsequent Habs management while the bolded are players drafted by the team.

In the last part, you will find total player points and games, both from regular season and the playoffs. After that are listed the assets that were needed to acquire those players through trades.


Houle 0,56 (o top 10 picks)
Souray 168/353
Markov 604/1079
Ryder 215/335
Ribeiro 158/294
Rucinski 300/447
Kovalenko 34/57
Corson 146/257
Richer 55/82
Weinrich 72/203
Zubrus 74/139

1826/3246

Total assets cost : Roy, Keane, Turgeon, Conroy, Fitzpatrick, Odelein, Brown, Mason, Recchi, 1st 1999, Malakhov



Savard 0,58 (0 top 10 picks)
Zednik 199/276
Gilmour 60/143
Plekanec 654/1068
Higgins 162/304
Bulis 138/315

1213/2106

Total assets cost : Linden, Zubrus, 2nd 2001



Gainey 0.64 (1 top 10 picks)
Subban 314/489
Pacioretty 467/664
Cammalleri 148/196
Kovalev 295/347
Streit 113/217
Desharnais 263/473
Tanguay 42/52
Gionta 201/348
Gomez 126/222
Kostitsyn 210/379

2179/3387

Total assets cost : Rivet, Balej, 1st 2008, 2nd 2009 McDonagh, Higgins, Valentenko



Gauthier 0,50 (0 top 10 picks)
Eller 172/472
Cole 67/101
Gallagher 260/446
Wisniewski 32/49
Kaberle 25/52

556/1120

Total assets cost : Halak, Spacek, 2nd 2011



Bergevin 0,51 (1 top3 pick, 1 top 10 pick)
Weber 61/110
Drouin 46/77
Radulov 62/82
Danault 72/161
Galchenyuk 268/446
Weise 69/181
Shaw 49/126
Byron 97/231
Vanek 25/35
Ryder 23/32

837/1636

Total assets cost : Subban, Sergachev, Cole, 2nd 2016, 2nd 2016, 2nd 2014, Weise, Fleishman



Now I know that as far as Bergevin is concerned, more than half of his drafts have not finished their development yet, but we can already see that he has a lot of ground to cover to catch-up on others on the list, and if he does so, chances are it will be because of high draft picks.

Seriously...

Who here doubts that? There's like a 98% consensus on this board about Bergevin's qualifications as GM of this team.

That being said...good post

 

[Habs Halifax]

Oh he realizes it...

It's just he thinks that acknowledging it, absolves Marc Bergevin of wrong doing.

He's using his own paranoia against himself.

For me, the Habs could of struck out on every single drafted players for 25 straight years before Marc Bergevin became GM, it doesn't excuse some of the decisions he's made as a GM of this team, so it's not about that.

It's about acknowledging that such a poor performance at the draft table, consecutively, is going to hurt ANY team. To suggest it's irrelevant simply because one is afraid it covers Bergevin's *** is so lame.

If I wanted to absolve Bergevin, I would explicitly say "it's not his fault"...but i've never said this.

I couldn't have explained it better myself (Bolded part). Ignoring that 4 year span and adding the great 2007 year to make it look better is nonsense. They say there is cherry picking going on to make Bergevin look good (which is not the case) and don't realize how foolish it looks in the process.

Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher and vets like Pleky and Markov. That's it. The drop off after that was huge! You don't win a cup with no depth at center and a poor prospect pool. In hindsight, we should of traded Pleky and Markov when we had the chance and not go for the rebound year in 2012. A smart GM would of realized that we had a major gap in our prospect pool and it would of been difficult to fill the holes moving forward through UFA and trades. This is the error Bergevin made IMO. He fell into the trap where he believed in our team and we were close. However, we lacked offensive power and depth at center. False hope and yes, it's hindsight evaluation

 

[Kriss E]

I couldn't have explained it better myself (Bolded part). Ignoring that 4 year span and adding the great 2007 year to make it look better is nonsense. They say there is cherry picking going on to make Bergevin look good (which is not the case) and don't realize how foolish it looks in the process.

Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher and vets like Pleky and Markov. That's it. The drop off after that was huge! You don't win a cup with no depth at center and a poor prospect pool. In hindsight, we should of traded Pleky and Markov when we had the chance and not go for the rebound year in 2012. A smart GM would of realized that we had a major gap in our prospect pool and it would of been difficult to fill the holes moving forward through UFA and trades. This is the error Bergevin made IMO. He fell into the trap where he believed in our team and we were close. However, we lacked offensive power and depth at center. False hope and yes, it's hindsight evaluation

1) You forgot Galchenyuk.
2) So after our #1 Goalie, our #1D and #2D, our three top Wingers, and our top center, there is a huge drop off...Wow. Great work Sherlock! (Please have a sense of humor here and don't take this reply personal)
3) Wrong. Believing in Price-Subban-Patches-Gallagher-Markov-Galch wasn't an error. Not adding to them was. Not knowing how to make them better was.

 

[Habs Halifax]

He could have traded Galchenyuk, Subban, Eller, Markov, Plekanec, to make improvements, couldn't he? Seeing how we either lost or traded those guys anyways....and guess what, we couldn't even get ourselves a center with all that quality hardware moved. Bravo.
Oh, and we might add Patches to that list shortly.
Stop with the goddamn excuses already.

Yes he could of. Markov and Pleky were the best pieces to use at that point but Markov was just rebounding from his knee problems right? If we traded Galchenyuk or Subban, he would of been another Sergachev for Drouin type trade. Lateral move. The point is we did not have spare assets. Eller would of got what? Not much.

 

[Kriss E]

Yes he could of. Markov and Pleky were the best pieces to use at that point but Markov was just rebounding from his knee problems right? If we traded Galchenyuk or Subban, he would of been another Sergachev for Drouin type trade. Lateral move. The point is we did not have spare assets. Eller would of got what? Not much.

How do you know this? Well, newsflash, you don't. Point is we could have moved. That's it that's all. There is no "but" to add. Stop making it seem like Bergevin had his hands tied, there is so much he could have done differently.
Eller coming off 30pts in 46gp, Markov back from knee surgery and excelling, ya, he could have packaged those for a great return if he wanted.
Taylor Hall was traded for Larsson, you're telling me if we sent Subban their way they wouldn't have accepted? Heck, they'd have given us Hall+.

So again, just stop it with the excuses.

 

[Habs Halifax]

1) You forgot Galchenyuk.
2) So after our #1 Goalie, our #1D and #2D, our three top Wingers, and our top center, there is a huge drop off...Wow. Great work Sherlock! (Please have a sense of humor here and don't take this reply personal)
3) Wrong. Believing in Price-Subban-Patches-Gallagher-Markov-Galch wasn't an error. Not adding to them was. Not knowing how to make them better was.

1. Galchenyuk came after. The point was looking at what we had from the previous years. If you mention Galchenyuk, you might as well add Hudon

2. Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Eller and vets like Pleky and Markov was solid. There is a reason why we won 3 division titles in 5 seasons. But this is also a reason why we have missing holes in our roster and terrible depth at center as well.

3. It was an error. Show me a package trade that rivals what Carter, Richards, RyJo, ROR or any other asset you think helps the Habs who was traded from 2012-2016 ish. I want to see how easy you think it was to improve. What UFA's could we sign? Put your money where your mouth is.

 

[Kriss E]

1. Galchenyuk came after. The point was looking at what we had from the previous years. If you mention Galchenyuk, you might as well add Hudon

2. Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher, Eller and vets like Pleky and Markov was solid. There is a reason why we won 3 division titles in 5 seasons. But this is also a reason why we have missing holes in our roster and terrible depth at center as well.

3. It was an error. Show me a package trade that rivals what Carter, Richards, RyJo, ROR or any other asset you think helps the Habs who was traded from 2012-2016 ish. I want to see how easy you think it was to improve. What UFA's could we sign? Put your money where your mouth is.

1- Bergevin inherited 3rd overall. So if you talk about things he could have traded, it's pretty dishonest to leave a big piece like that out.

2- Ya, we had holes. Most teams do. We also drafted a 3rd overall center and used him on the wings. Bravo.

3- What a silly game you are playing. Point is we had plenty of valuable assets to move, so this idea that there was nothing to do is complete fiction and flat out BS.

 

[Habs Halifax]

1- Bergevin inherited 3rd overall. So if you talk about things he could have traded, it's pretty dishonest to leave a big piece like that out.

2- Ya, we had holes. Most teams do. We also drafted a 3rd overall center and used him on the wings. Bravo.

3- What a silly game you are playing. Point is we had plenty of valuable assets to move, so this idea that there was nothing to do is complete fiction and flat out BS.

1. Bergevin could of taken Grigorenko vs Galchenyuk. Regardless, you are making a side point.

2. All teams have holes, this is true. Most teams fill those holes with prospects vs trying to build a cup contender through trades or UFA signings. Our holes were at center, goal scoring power, and toughness in the top parts of our line-up. Even Yzerman would of had a hard time filling these holes in trades. But wait, maybe Yzerman develops Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Leblanc into impact type players right? Or he trades them for whatever player we need.

3. Not a silly game. How come you don't provide examples to back up your comment? Show me who the Habs trade that rivals the Carter, Richards, ROR, RyJo trades or any other player that was traded that you think helps the Habs. What UFA's could we have signed.

You are the one playing a silly game. You make these claims with nothing to back it up and pretend the other person is not reasonable. What a joke

 

[DAChampion]

David Desharnais could have had a rather decent career as a middle-six forward in Montreal. The fact is that he did have a good work ethic and vision when he came up to Montreal.

Unfortunately, the way that he was venerated by Therrien made him lazy. The Habs management also told him to cut weight at some point, which was ridiculous. He should have bulked up as much as possible, become like Martin St-Louis.

 

[admiralcadillac]

How do you know this? Well, newsflash, you don't. Point is we could have moved. That's it that's all. There is no "but" to add. Stop making it seem like Bergevin had his hands tied, there is so much he could have done differently.
Eller coming off 30pts in 46gp, Markov back from knee surgery and excelling, ya, he could have packaged those for a great return if he wanted.
Taylor Hall was traded for Larsson, you're telling me if we sent Subban their way they wouldn't have accepted? Heck, they'd have given us Hall+.

So again, just stop it with the excuses.

Package Eller and Markov for a great return? Are you joking?

 

[DAChampion]

Bergevin inherited a strong young core. It's half the reason that the Habs won several division championships, the other being a weak division. The Habs farm system was widely seen as being top-15 or top-10 when Bergevin came in.

Bergevin had Price, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Gallagher, Desharnais, Galchenyuk, great tools to start with. He also had Markov and Plekanec for veteran support.

If they had been competent, then several of Leblanc, Tinordi, Beaulieu, and Nygren would have contributed as well.

 

[Kriss E]

1. Bergevin could of taken Grigorenko vs Galchenyuk. Regardless, you are making a side point.

2. All teams have holes, this is true. Most teams fill those holes with prospects vs trying to build a cup contender through trades or UFA signings. Our holes were at center, goal scoring power, and toughness in the top parts of our line-up. Even Yzerman would of had a hard time filling these holes in trades. But wait, maybe Yzerman develops Beaulieu, Tinordi, and Leblanc into impact type players right? Or he trades them for whatever player we need.

3. Not a silly game. How come you don't provide examples to back up your comment? Show me who the Habs trade that rivals the Carter, Richards, ROR, RyJo trades or any other player that was traded that you think helps the Habs. What UFA's could we have signed.

You are the one playing a silly game. You make these claims with nothing to back it up and pretend the other person is not reasonable. What a joke

1- He had the 3rd overall. That's a substantial asset. Give it a rest.
2- Here's a crazy idea....If you have issues at center, use the 3rd overall center you just drafted....at center. Wowzer!! Mind....Blown!!
3- Why exactly do we have to trade for those guys? You don't know about any trades until they happen. We had assets we could have moved. That's the goddamn point. Maybe other teams wouldn't want them. Or, maybe we could have traded for a player that ended up remaining on his team, just like Gallagher was never traded. It doesn't mean we could have traded him though now does it? Pacioretty hasn't been moved yet, are we to believe it's because we can't get anything significant in return for him? What a foolish thought that would be.
So you see why this game of yours is quite freaking silly?..

Btw, what claim have I made other than "we had valuable assets (referring to Max, PK, Price, Gallagher, Galch, Markov, Plek, Eller)"? Enlighten me please.

 

[Kriss E]

Package Eller and Markov for a great return? Are you joking?

In 13-14, ya. Why not? Add in a 1st if you want.

 

[DAChampion]

In 13-14, ya. Why not? Add in a 1st if you want.

IMO, the Habs should and could have competed that year.