Marc Bergevin: At the End o'da Day

[lo striver]

i'm just sitting here... doing this .. watching the show.

It is early Monday mornig, but love has already left hfboards.

 

[Kriss E]

Hope on a prospect vs what we know today. This is a different conversation. What we are talking about here is the ripple effects of only having Gallagher from 4 years of drafting. How high or low you were on the prospects back in 2012 is irrelevant at this point. We know today what the final results are and it's not good.

There a huge holes in our line-up today and imagine Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi being impact players on our roster today and in the last 5 years. Those guys would be in their prime years like Gallagher.

Identifying that we had terrible drafting from 08-11 is interesting. But where you massively fail is in your conclusion.
Just because our drafting was bad during those years does not excuse or explain the bad decisions and lack of planning the current organization made.
That is even more evident when you look at some of the talent we already had on despite those bad draft years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Identifying that we had terrible drafting from 08-11 is interesting. But where you massively fail is in your conclusion.
Just because our drafting was bad during those years does not excuse or explain the bad decisions and lack of planning the current organization made.
That is even more evident when you look at some of the talent we already had on despite those bad draft years.

Fair post. I do acknowledge that there is miss management in various cases and I have talked about this for a while now. However, saying the 4 years in drafting directly before Bergevin started as GM don't have a factor is nonsense. He has tools to work with but he was not working with much after Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher. Beaulieu, Leblanc, Tinordi were good prospects who failed in the end but quantity was lacking as well behind them.

I'm not failing in my conclusion. I'm talking about one point and people who hate Bergevin always will hate him and say he had everything in the world to work with and was terrible at everything he did. Sorry, I choose to have another GM at this point but I'm not on the hate bandwagon

 

[Bryson]

This is BS! How can our roster not be affected when the 4 years of drafting directly before Bergevin took over as GM were one of the worse 4 year stretches in the history of the NHL. But wait, there was this one time back in 2017 where we did very well and the 4 years after this was erased and should be excused.

Come on man.

Because the idiot GM has not acquired a single first round pick in 7 years despite losing some very high profile and talented players. If the goal was to rebuild in 2017/2018 then he could have traded Markov and Plekanec for a mint back when they were at their peak, better than losing them for nothing. But who are we kidding this GM has no vision. He can't even trade a multi 30 goal scorer without devaluing him!

 

[Andy]

This is BS! How can our roster not be affected when the 4 years of drafting directly before Bergevin took over as GM were one of the worse 4 year stretches in the history of the NHL. But wait, there was this one time back in 2017 where we did very well and the 4 years after this was erased and should be excused.

Come on man.

I already told you why. You keep repeating that phrase as though it some how is a counterpoint to my counterpoint against that claim.

I've explained to you why the 4 years is not as bad as you think. You've provided 0 arguments to the contrary.

When someone challenges argument x, repeating argument x is not a counter-argument. Actually, the fact that you can't provide a valid counter argument to my rebuttal only strengthens my point.

As it stands, your original cherry picked dates are invalid for the reasons I posted above. I will wait for a counter argument that isn't just a repeat of the original argument.

Also, you haven't addressed this:

MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral moves that wasted the productive years of good core members, by not adding talent to complement the core members he had and by developing very few players between 2012-2016 when other teams managed to do so.

 

[Andy]

Identifying that we had terrible drafting from 08-11 is interesting. But where you massively fail is in your conclusion.
Just because our drafting was bad during those years does not excuse or explain the bad decisions and lack of planning the current organization made.
That is even more evident when you look at some of the talent we already had on despite those bad draft years.

It also overlooks the fact that those years were offset by the fact that Pacioretty and Subban were drafted the year prior, and that Eller and Pateryn, players drafted between 2007-2011 were acquird via trade giving the Habs Pacioretty, Subban, Eller, Pateryn, Gallagher and Beaulieu as nhlers produced from the 2007-2011 draft years, which is 1 nhler shy of the league average between those years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I already told you why. You keep repeating that phrase as though it some how is a counterpoint to my counterpoint against that claim.

I've explained to you why the 4 years is not as bad as you think. You've provided 0 arguments to the contrary.

When someone challenges argument x, repeating argument x is not a counter-argument. Actually, the fact that you can't provide a valid counter argument to my rebuttal only strengthens my point.

As it stands, your original cherry picked dates are invalid for the reasons I posted above. I will wait for a counter argument that isn't just a repeat of the original argument.

Also, you haven't addressed this:

MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral moves that wasted the productive years of good core members, by not adding talent to complement the core members he had and by developing very few players between 2012-2016 when other teams managed to do so.

Broken record... I already told you. I understand your point 100% now. You think one great draft year is an excuse to follow this up with a terrible 4 years of drafting. That is OK in your world cause you don't understand drafting.

You think that if we got McDavid, who cares who else is drafted after him. We should be able to add around him through free agency and trades easily

 

[Andy]

Broken record... I already told you. I understand your point 100% now. You think one great draft year is an excuse to follow this up with a terrible 4 years of drafting. That is OK in your world cause you were able to get Subban and Patch and RM who was traded. If you could pin that trade on Bergevin, you would!

No team produces an annual stream of nhl players. That's unreasonable, succeeding in one year helps off-set misses in subsequent years provided the timeframe of misses isn't too large, which is the case for the habs, they drafted Subban and Pacioretty the year prior to your cherry picked time frame and acquired Eller and Pateryn. They also drafted Gallagher between 2008-2011, as well as beaulieu who was a good asset.

2007 offsets the misses in 2008-2011, also, trading for players between 2007-2011 also offsets that.

Also, you haven't addressed the fact MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral moves that wasted the productive years of good core members, by not adding talent to complement the core members he had and by developing very few players between 2012-2016 when other teams managed to do so. This is a bigger explanation of the failures than 2008-2011, esp since it was offset.

 

[groovejuice]

Would it surprise anyone that Geoff had actual input in the impactful decisions taken by Bergevin?

Like when Bergevin dropped this little pearl:

 

[DAChampion]

Both of Gaurhier and Bergevin are responsible for 2008-2011.

Bergevin guaranteed that most of the good players drafted would bust.

Gauthier was also trading away picks left and right to get depth at each deadline. Why not just get depth in the off-season?

 

[Habs Halifax]

No team produces an annual stream of nhl players. That's unreasonable.

Why can't you just do your research and show us examples vs blabbing on with an opinion with no substance to back it up. Seriously, show me a comparison of 4 years of drafting with just Gallagher (And Beaulieu) to show for it.

2 NHL players from 4 years of drafting. One very good top 6 winger and a bottom pairing D man. You seriously think this is OK and the NHL norm? Do your homework buddy... please.

 

[Andy]

Why can't you just do your research and show us examples vs blabbing on with an opinion with no substance to back it up. Seriously, show me a comparison of 4 years of drafting with just Gallagher (And Beaulieu) to show for it.

2 NHL players from 4 years of drafting. One very good top 6 winger and a bottom pairing D man. You seriously think this is OK and the NHL norm?

After you show me that 2008-2011 is the worse in nhl history.

Once again, the 2008-2011 was offset by 2007 and the acquisition of players.

from 2007-2011 the league average for teams being constituted by players drafted in that time span was 7, the habs had 6 - seven if you want to count Bournival's short stint as well.

The disadvantage is non-existent.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Because the idiot GM has not acquired a single first round pick in 7 years despite losing some very high profile and talented players. If the goal was to rebuild in 2017/2018 then he could have traded Markov and Plekanec for a mint back when they were at their peak, better than losing them for nothing. But who are we kidding this GM has no vision. He can't even trade a multi 30 goal scorer without devaluing him!

Well, this is another discussion. I think we need a Bergevin stress room where you can go in and just ramble off anything that comes to your mind. Things that have nothing to do with the actual conversation taken place

 

[groovejuice]

True about his role as President, but I doubt the title takes the form of scouting and evaluating players. Molson probably takes more of a marketing/broad-picture role. Do we rebuild? Should we trade Max or Carey? What should we tell the media? The kind of questions we ask here. And once they agree on the broad strokes, Bergevin goes out and executes. As you said, Molson has no hockey experience. He's not going to be reading through player reports, talking to scouts, calling GMs, analyzing numbers -- that's Bergevin's job. And it's not like Molson has nothing else to do with his week.

Unless there's proof that this org operates differently than any other org, the boss delegates the decisions to the manager, as long as the boss is kept in the loop. The day the boss won't delegate the management job to the manager is the day the manager is fired.

And I'll bet you money that Jack Todd's rumour about Molson 'stepping in' for the Subban contract is exaggerated nonsense.

I don't agree. Bergevin was perfectly willing to go to arbitration and all that that entails, and give Subban an iron clad path to UFA in 2 years. He was playing hardball for the second time with Subban and this time was after a ******** Norris. This is typical Bergevin behavior with players he doesn't like personally, regardless of their value to the team.

 

[groovejuice]

I reject the conspiracy theory that Molson is keeping Bergevin to save 5 million a year.

However, one that I'd be inclined to believe is that Molson wants the next GM to come in during a fresher period. A lot of potential candidates might be afraid to come in now, as the Habs are five years away from competing. They know that they'll be excruciated by the media if they come in now.

I don't understand that line of thinking. Once the width and breadth of Bergevin's ineptitude became clear to Molson, he should have been shown the door. He continues to do damage and will do so in perpetuity until he's exiled.

 

[Habs Halifax]

After you show me that 2008-2011 is the worse in nhl history.

Once again, the 2008-2011 was offset by 2007 and the acquisition of players.

from 2007-2011 the league average for teams being constituted by players drafted in that time span was 7, the habs had 6 - seven if you want to count Bournival's short stint as well.

The disadvantage is non-existent.

Don't twist it... I said one of the worse in NHL history. I'm going to help you cause you clearly need it. Look at the Pens from 2008-2011. Same amount of top 100 picks and how does the results look? Go look for yourself. Neither team has bragging rights.

You think this is the NHL norm or average? I'm done my homework. I haven't looked at every single NHL draft in history but I did study the last 10 years in depth. I know how our team stacks up against all other teams. I also know how only 8 top 100 picks affects your ability to produce NHL players.

This is why I helped you with the Pens. Please, go look deeper into it. There must be more examples of it right? If you think it's the NHL norm? It should be easy for you

 

[Andy]

Don't twist it... I said one of the worse in NHL history. I'm going to help you cause you clearly need it. Look at the Pens from 2008-2011. Same amount of top 100 picks and how does the results look? Go look for yourself. Neither team has bragging rights.

You think this is the NHL norm or average? I'm done my homework. I haven't looked at every single NHL draft in history but I did study the last 10 years in depth. I know how our team stacks up against all other teams. I also know how only 8 top 100 picks affects your ability to produce NHL players.

This is why I helped you with the Pens. Please, go look deeper into it. There must be more examples of it right? If you think it's the NHL norm? It should be easy for you

Show me a list of the worst and how the habs compare to that. You said among the worst in nhl history, not among the worst in the last 10 years. Show me that your claim is valid.

Also, if the Pens are as bad as the Habs were 2008-2011 drafting, why weren't they handcuffed in their performances from 2012-2016 where they won 2 cups? Why hasn't their team gotten progressively worse since 2012? It's almost like what you draft in previous and future years, plus what you acquire helps offset draft performance. hmmmmmmm.

Seems like the likely explanation is that MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral trades that didn't improve the club but only wasted prime years of his core while not adding talent to it and by having poor development from 2012-2016, a period that saw other teams add to their cores through the draft.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I don't understand that line of thinking. Once the width and breadth of Bergevin's ineptitude became clear to Molson, he should have been shown the door. He continues to do damage and will do so in perpetuity until he's exiled.

Bergevin signed a 5 year extension (from 2017/2018 - 2021/2022) in Nov of 2015. This was before he made the Subban trade and before our disaster 2015/2016 season ended. On Nov 25th, the Habs were tied for 1st in the NHL with 34 pts in 22 games.

If Bergevin was fired after the 2015/2016 season, Molson would of written off the last year of Bergevin's 1st contract and the entire 2nd year contract (5 years).

It's clear to me why he is still our GM. It's about $

 

[Habs Halifax]

Show me a list of the worst and how the habs compare to that. You said among the worst in nhl history, not among the worst in the last 10 years. Show me that your claim is valid.

Also, if the Pens are as bad as the Habs were 2008-2011 drafting, why weren't they handcuffed in their performances from 2012-2016 where they won 2 cups? Why hasn't their team gotten progressively worse since 2012? It's almost like what you draft in previous and future years, plus what you acquire helps offset draft performance. hmmmmmmm.

Sorry buddy... I already showed you the Pens. You need to do your own homework. It's the only way you will come to your senses.

Also, for the record. Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury/Staal > Price, Subban, Patch. Teams that win cups have depth at center. You know this

 

[Bryson]

Open your eyes! We are not defending him. We are just not hating him like you are. There is a lot of talk about what mistakes he has made and how he is struggling but you have your blinders on and you want another fan to argue with. Hate evaluation don't help anything but don't let us stop you... keep it going if it makes you feel happy or more upset. Whatever turns your crank

Can mods please ban this poster? How much longer must we endure this patronizing and condescending remark? If Cobra Commander aka Dirk Diggler was banned for his Believe me and Trust me comments, surely this falls under the same annoying jurisdiction which does nothing to add value to this forum!? Telling posters to Open Your Eyes? How is this passive aggression tolerated around here?

 

[Andy]

Sorry buddy... I already showed you the Pens. You need to do your own homework. It's the only way you will come to your senses.

Indeed, I explicitly used your example and asked you why the Pens didn't implode despite having a comparably bad 4 years.

Also, for the record. Crosby/Malkin/Letang/Fleury/Staal > Price, Subban, Patch. Teams that win cups have depth at center. You know this

So what you are saying is that you agree that adjacent drafts and player acquisition off-sets poor draft performances? I'm glad we're in agreement. Because this is precisely what I said. Thank you for coming to my conclusion.

Also, for someone who did their homework, check Tampa's drafting from 99-2006. They won a cup in 2004.

How did they not implode from 4 years of bad drafting before their cup win?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Can mods please ban this poster? How much longer must we endure this patronizing and condescending remark? If Cobra Commander aka Dirk Diggler was banned for his Believe me and Trust me comments, surely this falls under the same annoying jurisdiction which does nothing to add value to this forum!? Telling posters to Open Your Eyes? How is this passive aggression tolerated around here?

You know what's funny, you have said "open your eyes" more than I have in the last few months. Today was the first time I said it in months. Go ahead and take a fit cause you can't debate a conversation and stay on topic

 

[groovejuice]

Bergevin signed a 5 year extension (from 2017/2018 - 2021/2022) in Nov of 2015. This was before he made the Subban trade and before our disaster 2015/2016 season ended. On Nov 25th, the Habs were tied for 1st in the NHL with 34 pts in 22 games.

If Bergevin was fired after the 2015/2016 season, Molson would of written off the last year of Bergevin's 1st contract and the entire 2nd year contract (5 years).

It's clear to me why he is still our GM. It's about $

I get that. How much additional money is the team losing with Bergevin as GM? Substantially more then his contract value, I'd wager.

 

[Kriss E]

I reject the conspiracy theory that Molson is keeping Bergevin to save 5 million a year.

However, one that I'd be inclined to believe is that Molson wants the next GM to come in during a fresher period. A lot of potential candidates might be afraid to come in now, as the Habs are five years away from competing. They know that they'll be excruciated by the media if they come in now.

Personally, I think Molson simply still believes Bergevin can turn this around.

 

[Kriss E]

It also overlooks the fact that those years were offset by the fact that Pacioretty and Subban were drafted the year prior, and that Eller and Pateryn, players drafted between 2007-2011 were acquird via trade giving the Habs Pacioretty, Subban, Eller, Pateryn, Gallagher and Beaulieu as nhlers produced from the 2007-2011 draft years, which is 1 nhler shy of the league average between those years.

Agreed.