Marc Bergevin: At the End o'da Day

[Habs Halifax]

I don't think so. It's clear that you are trying to excuse MB and this is just a lame attempt at doing so.

The 2008-2011 draft cross section isn't significant precisely because the year before yielded good players. As a result, when you analyze a 5 year cross section between 2007-2011, the habs didn't fair any worse than league average. In other words, the poorer drafted from 2008-2011 is offset by the good drafting between 2007-2011. No team hits homeruns every year, the misses in some years are offset by success in years directly adjacent to whatever cross section is being analyzed.

Case in point:

• 

As you can see, from 2007-2011 the habs produced nhl talent at more or less the average rate in the first and second round, while being above average in the 5th round in that time span. They are below average in the 3rd round, 4th round, 6th round and 7th round in that time frame. That being said, the rate for the league was less than 1 in all these rounds.

So the idea that MB was held back because of 2008-2011 is not supported by the data. The average amount of nhlers (loose term since there are quite a few journeymen players on that list) produced in that period is 7, the Habs produced 6. The Habs had added an additional 1st rounder from 2007-2011 by acquiring Eller and a 5th rounder by acquiring Pateryn.

In the end, MB ended up with 6 of the 8 nhlers Montreal had produced or acquired from those draft years, 1 below the average. However, it's important to keep in mind that that average includes a lot of Journeymen nhlers. The 6 players MB inherited from this period of draftees was Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Gallagher which compared to the rest of the list is actually pretty good for a team that didn't draft top 10 in that time frame.

Also, it's important not to forget, though they weren't blue chip prospects, the Habs did have Tinordi, Leblanc, Bournival (also acquired from the 2007-2011 period), Nygren in the system in addition to the above 5 mentioned players. In hindsight, they weren't good, but at the time, their fate was far from certain.



If anyone wants the file to complete the exercise, I can send it your way. Note, I did not at Atlanta/Winnipeg just yet. Will do so soon.

Your wasting your time cause you fail to realize how bad those 4 years were. One very good year does not give you an excuse to have a 4 year terrible stretch afterwards. This is what you are trying to tell us and it's hilarious.

It's the same as saying the Habs won 3 division titles in 6 years. You are using an average and ignoring how bad the 2015/2016 and 2017/2018 seasons were . As a whole since the 2012 season, the Habs have the 13th most points. Not bad eh, we must be going in a good direction cause that season we had years ago was great! lol

 

[Andy]

As for which teams had a worse 4 years cross section, Pittsburgh had only Beau Bennett, Despres, Bortuzzo and Muzzin as nhlers in the 2008-2011 cross section. So the habs aren't even the worse team in your cherry-picked time frame.

 

[habsfan909]

Well, last off season Bergevin did a terrible job. Too much AAV to Price, Too much AAV and term to Alzner, Only a 3 year deal for Galchenyuk. What did Bergevin do this off season? Where is the risky spending? Not saying Bergevin deserves to keep his job at this stage but Molson can control costs.

What's $5M to Molson? It's a lot of money for anybody, even millionaires. This should not be ignored. It's a big deal.

LMAO - you mean his FAILED attempts to lure any free agents here, despite trying?? You mean not even being able to get a meeting with Tavares? You have to have really destroyed a historic franchise that a star player won't even sit down for a meeting - when you have the ability to outbid every other team on the list.
Cmon man!

 

[Bryson]

My point clearly goes over your head. It's one of the worse 4 year spans in the history of the NHL (not just the Habs). You would have a point if the year 2007 was in the middle of the 2008-2011 draft years but it doesn't.

The point (you need reminders) is how good the 2007 draft was but followed up with a terrible 4 years of drafting. The missing holes in our line-up today have a lot to do with the 4 year span cause those picks are age 25-29 ish today.

This is f***ing BULLSHIT!! Lots of teams have given up a 1st round pick without completely devastating an entire franchise. LA Kings, Pittsburgh, etc.. WTF are you smoking? And as I pointed out to YOU already, Gallagher the current best player on the team and 30 goal scorer was drafted in 2010. HELLO! McFly!?

Also there are other ways to add players to a team other than just drafting with a competent GM in place. In Gauthier's one year tenure alone he added Lars Eller, Erik Cole and Alexi Emelin.

Also those picks that would now be 25-29 doesn't affect us you know why? Because we wouldn't be able to afford them. They'd all be on UFA contracts and neither of them would be as good as Markov or Radulov and Bergevin let them walk for nothing. Radulov alone is likely better than anything we could have drafted in those years you keep cherry picking. Wake up and stop defending this GM.

 

[Andy]

Your wasting your time cause you fail to realize how bad those 4 years were. One very good year does not give you an excuse to have a 4 year terrible stretch afterwards. This is what you are trying to tell us and it's hilarious.

I think you fail to realize how arbitrary it is to cherry pick a 4 year slice to make an argument. To show you how cherry picked and insignificant it is, simply adding 1 year prior to that slice puts the habs at league average in producing nhlers, despite not being able to draft high.

It is also omits the fact that the habs off-set some of the bad picks by acquiring Eller and Pateryn further narrowing the gap between the Habs drafting over a 5 year period compared to the rest of league.

Pacioretty, Subban, Eller, Pateryn, Beaulieu and Gallagher were the nhler products produced and acquired from the 2007-2011 draft period. Very few teams had a better cast of nhlers to come out of those years, thus making your 4 year crisis argument weak.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think you fail to realize how arbitrary it is to cherry pick a 4 year slice to make an argument. To show you how cherry picked and insignificant it is, simply adding 1 year prior to that slice puts the habs at league average in producing nhlers, despite not being able to draft high.

It is also omits the fact that the habs off-set some of the bad picks by acquiring Eller and Pateryn further narrowing the gap between the Habs drafting over a 5 year period compared to the rest of league.

Pacioretty, Subban, Eller, Pateryn, Beaulieu and Gallagher were the nhler products produced and acquired from the 2007-2011 draft period. Very few teams had a better cast of nhlers to come out of those years, thus making your 4 year crisis argument weak.

I got yeah, You think it's a good excuse to follow up one great year with 4 terrible years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

This is ****ing BULL****!! Lots of teams have given up a 1st round pick without completely devastating an entire franchise. LA Kings, Pittsburgh, etc.. WTF are you smoking? And as I pointed out to YOU already, Gallagher the current best player on the team and 30 goal scorer was drafted in 2010. HELLO! McFly!?

Also there are other ways to add players to a team other than just drafting with a competent GM in place. In Gauthier's one year tenure alone he added Lars Eller, Erik Cole and Alexi Emelin.

Also those picks that would now be 25-29 doesn't affect us you know why? Because we wouldn't be able to afford them. They'd all be on UFA contracts and neither of them would be as good as Markov or Radulov and Bergevin let them walk for nothing. Radulov alone is likely better than anything we could have drafted in those years you keep cherry picking. Wake up and stop defending this GM.

Gallagher is in the range of 25-30 and his contract has not expired yet. Don't you realize that it's missing holes today moving forward and missing holes we had in the last few years as well?

 

[Andy]

I got yeah, You think it's a good excuse to follow up one great year with 4 terrible years.

No, you think that the team getting progressively worse from 2012-2017 is somehow the fault of 4 draft years, when the Habs produced and acquired similar nhl talent to the rest of the league in a 5 year span before MB led the team and when other nhl teams from 2012-2017 were able to inject talent in their lineups from draftees over those 5 years to remain competitive.

The only weak excuse here is the 4 years that were cherry picked. Let me remind you again:

• 

As you can see, from 2007-2011 the habs produced nhl talent at more or less the average rate in the first and second round, while being above average in the 5th round in that time span. They are below average in the 3rd round, 4th round, 6th round and 7th round in that time frame. That being said, the rate for the league was less than 1 in all these rounds.

So the idea that MB was held back because of 2008-2011 is not supported by the data. The average amount of nhlers (loose term since there are quite a few journeymen players on that list) produced in that period is 7, the Habs produced 6. The Habs had added an additional 1st rounder from 2007-2011 by acquiring Eller and a 5th rounder by acquiring Pateryn.

In the end, MB ended up with 6 of the 8 nhlers Montreal had produced or acquired from those draft years, 1 below the average. However, it's important to keep in mind that that average includes a lot of Journeymen nhlers. The 6 players MB inherited from this period of draftees was Subban, Pacioretty, Eller, Beaulieu, Pateryn, and Gallagher which compared to the rest of the list is actually pretty good for a team that didn't draft top 10 in that time frame.

Also, it's important not to forget, though they weren't blue chip prospects, the Habs did have Tinordi, Leblanc, Bournival (also acquired from the 2007-2011 period), Nygren in the system in addition to the above 5 mentioned players. In hindsight, they weren't good, but at the time, their fate was far from certain.



If anyone wants the file to complete the exercise, I can send it your way. Note, I did not at Atlanta/Winnipeg just yet. Will do so soon.

 

[Habs Halifax]

No, you think that the team getting progressively worse from 2012-2017 is somehow the fault of 4 draft years, when the Habs produced and acquired similar nhl talent to the rest of the league in a 5 year span before MB led the team and when other nhl teams from 2012-2017 were able to inject talent in their lineups from draftees over those 5 years to remain competitive.

The only weak excuse here is the 4 years that were cherry picked.

I already told you, they were cherry picked cause they stand out like a sore thumb.

You either are putting blinders on or you don't understand how a bad 4 year stretch affects a teams ability to improve on what they already have. It's one or the other and in either cause, you don't look good. Keep digging the hole

Your line of thinking.... 2012-2018, the Habs have had the 13th most points. So we are not that bad. It's the same thing as what you are trying to tell us with grouping the 2007 into the 4 years that followed.

 

[Andy]

I already told you, they were cherry picked cause they stand out like a sore thumb.

They were cherry picked because you are looking for an excuse to apologize for MB.

The average nhlers produced between 2007 and 2011 was 7 per team, the habs had 6. MB wasn't disadvantaged in anyway.

MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral moves that wasted the productive years of good core members, by not adding talent to complement the core members he had and by developing very few players between 2012-2016 when other teams managed to do so.

You're welcome to wear blinders and blame everything on a 4 year period, you're still wrong though and there are much more solid reasons why the team failed other than 4 cherry picked years.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They were cherry picked because you are looking for an excuse to apologize for MB.

No, it was looking at the facts. I have no problem with looking at positives and negatives and evaluating fairly. Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher was awesome. It sucked after that and the 4 years that you group into 5 years includes Subban and Patch. Not ignoring anything. Our ability to improve on what we had as not great cause we had a very bad 4 years of drafting. You can get upset all you want but those are facts cause I am using hindsight evaluation.

My point goes over your head cause you are too concentrated with the Pro Bergevin or against Bergevin line in the sand with our fan base. It's nonsense

 

[Lshap]

Belial pretty much nailed it.

Molson is not only the owner, he's the President and chief executive officer. All trades get his seal of approval including trading Subban, Galchenyuk, etc.. his hands are not clean of the mess he and Bergevin have created. Molson has no hockey experience so why is he making hockey decisions?

Also it is pretty much acknowledged that PK and Bergevin were in for a long and ugly battle before Molson stepped in and gave him that contract.

True about his role as President, but I doubt the title takes the form of scouting and evaluating players. Molson probably takes more of a marketing/broad-picture role. Do we rebuild? Should we trade Max or Carey? What should we tell the media? The kind of questions we ask here. And once they agree on the broad strokes, Bergevin goes out and executes. As you said, Molson has no hockey experience. He's not going to be reading through player reports, talking to scouts, calling GMs, analyzing numbers -- that's Bergevin's job. And it's not like Molson has nothing else to do with his week.

Unless there's proof that this org operates differently than any other org, the boss delegates the decisions to the manager, as long as the boss is kept in the loop. The day the boss won't delegate the management job to the manager is the day the manager is fired.

And I'll bet you money that Jack Todd's rumour about Molson 'stepping in' for the Subban contract is exaggerated nonsense.

 

[Bryson]

Gallagher is in the range of 25-30 and his contract has not expired yet. Don't you realize that it's missing holes today moving forward and missing holes we had in the last few years as well?

As I told you Gallagher was drafted in 2010 so that instantly makes your fabrication of 2008-2011 the worst draft years in NHL history a complete lie. Also as I said, if we have holes, Radulov is better than anything we would have drafted back then, assuming we didn't ruin them... instead we have CapSpace. The Montreal Canadiens have not developed a single top 6 talent under Bergevin in 7 years. Now THAT is the worst in NHL history.

You can stop with your disingenuous posting now.

 

[Habs Halifax]

As I told you Gallagher was drafted in 2010 so that instantly makes your fabrication of 2008-2011 the worst draft years in NHL history a complete lie. Also as I said, if we have holes, Radulov is better than anything we would have drafted back then, assuming we didn't ruin them... instead we have CapSpace. The Montreal Canadiens have not developed a single top 6 talent under Bergevin in 7 years. Now THAT is the worst in NHL history.

You can stop with your disingenuous posting now.

How about you provide me a 4 year sample from any other team that is similar to Gallagher from 2008-2011? I've asked you various times now!!!!! You are the one being Disingenuous and you don't even realize it.

Do you seriously think that by saying we drafted Gallagher, it should be enough for 4 years of drafting? Seriously?

 

[DAChampion]

When people abuse the bold and underline functions, I'm likelier to skip their posts.

 

[Bryson]

How about you provide me a 4 year sample from any other team that is similar to Gallagher from 2008-2011? I've asked you various times now!!!!! You are the one being Disingenuous and you don't even realize it.

Maybe if you tell me to Open My Eyes one more time... maybe I'll finally get it!

 

[Habs Halifax]

Maybe if you tell me to Open My Eyes one more time... maybe I'll finally get it!

Well, I'm waiting for you to back up your BS with substance

 

[DAChampion]

As I told you Gallagher was drafted in 2010 so that instantly makes your fabrication of 2008-2011 the worst draft years in NHL history a complete lie. Also as I said, if we have holes, Radulov is better than anything we would have drafted back then, assuming we didn't ruin them... instead we have CapSpace. The Montreal Canadiens have not developed a single top 6 talent under Bergevin in 7 years. Now THAT is the worst in NHL history.

You can stop with your disingenuous posting now.

Moreover, the Bergevin administration is not hapless with respect to those drafting years.

Having Leblanc, Nygren, and Tinordi bust was not inevitable, it was a choice that they made. Leblanc was a good NHL player in 2011, they then decided to go on a bullying streak in order to revel in their power. Tinordi was an effective NHL player against Ottawa in 2013, the whole forum was happy with him and he was considered an untouchable.

 

[Andy]

No, it was looking at the facts. I have no problem with looking at positives and negatives and evaluating fairly. Price, Subban, Patch, Gallagher was awesome. It sucked after that and the 4 years that you group into 5 years includes Subban and Patch. Not ignoring anything. Our ability to improve on what we had as not great cause we had a very bad 4 years of drafting. You can get upset all you want but those are facts cause I am using hindsight evaluation.

I'm actually not upset.

Once again, 4 years of drafting gets easily offset by the excellent drafting the year prior and by the acquisition of two players drafted between 2007-2011.

This off-set is demonstrated by the fact that the league average in nhlers produced was roughly 7 between 2007-2011, while the habs drafted and acquired 6 players drafted in that span.

MB was not disadvantaged in anyway.

That said, I really love how you conveniently avoid this:

MB disadvantaged himself by making lateral moves that wasted the productive years of good core members, by not adding talent to complement the core members he had and by developing very few players between 2012-2016 when other teams managed to do so.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Moreover, the Bergevin administration is not hapless with respect to those drafting years.

Having Leblanc, Nygren, and Tinordi bust was not inevitable, it was a choice that they made. Leblanc was a good NHL player in 2011, they then decided to go on a bullying streak in order to revel in their power. Tinordi was an effective NHL player against Ottawa in 2013, the whole forum was happy with him and he was considered an untouchable.

Hope on a prospect vs what we know today. This is a different conversation. What we are talking about here is the ripple effects of only having Gallagher from 4 years of drafting. How high or low you were on the prospects back in 2012 is irrelevant at this point. We know today what the final results are and it's not good.

There a huge holes in our line-up today and imagine Leblanc, Beaulieu, Tinordi being impact players on our roster today and in the last 5 years. Those guys would be in their prime years like Gallagher.

 

[Kriss E]

Well, last off season Bergevin did a terrible job. Too much AAV to Price, Too much AAV and term to Alzner, Only a 3 year deal for Galchenyuk. What did Bergevin do this off season? Where is the risky spending? Not saying Bergevin deserves to keep his job at this stage but Molson can control costs.

What's $5M to Molson? It's a lot of money for anybody, even millionaires. This should not be ignored. It's a big deal.

It's not 5M from his bank account. It's 5M added to operation cost when those are set in the hundreds of millions, so no, it's not really a lot. I'm not saying they're looking at 5M like it's 5 bucks.
What I'm saying is they're not going to sabotage their business and keep a person they mistrust in such an important position just because they'd have an extra 5M in cost.
You should agree with that seeing how you just wrote how Molson can control costs. So he can tell No to an 84M raise to Price, you can say no to a 13M signing bonus, he can refuse to let him pursue Tavares and Stastny, he can say no to trading a young blue chip prospect where we'd benefit from an ELC instead of signing one that needs a new deal hitting 30M.

So if Molson was really just worried about paying an extra 5M, he could cut at a lot of different places and he definitely wouldn't have let Bergevin take some of the decisions he's made.

As dumb as Molson is, there is no way he'd sabotage his own business purposely to save on 5M per next few years. If he didn't trust Bergevin, he would have fired him already.

 

[Censored Toad]

When people abuse the bold and underline functions, I'm likelier to skip their posts.

i'm just sitting here... doing this .. watching the show.

 

[Habs Halifax]

MB was not disadvantaged in anyway..

This is BS! How can our roster not be affected when the 4 years of drafting directly before Bergevin took over as GM were one of the worse 4 year stretches in the history of the NHL. But wait, there was this one time back in 2017 where we did very well and the 4 years after this was erased and should be excused.

Come on man.

 

[DAChampion]

It's not 5M from his bank account. It's 5M added to operation cost when those are set in the hundreds of millions, so no, it's not really a lot. I'm not saying they're looking at 5M like it's 5 bucks.
What I'm saying is they're not going to sabotage their business and keep a person they mistrust in such an important position just because they'd have an extra 5M in cost.
You should agree with that seeing how you just wrote how Molson can control costs. So he can tell No to an 84M raise to Price, you can say no to a 13M signing bonus, he can refuse to let him pursue Tavares and Stastny, he can say no to trading a young blue chip prospect where we'd benefit from an ELC instead of signing one that needs a new deal hitting 30M.

So if Molson was really just worried about paying an extra 5M, he could cut at a lot of different places and he definitely wouldn't have let Bergevin take some of the decisions he's made.

As dumb as Molson is, there is no way he'd sabotage his own business purposely to save on 5M per next few years. If he didn't trust Bergevin, he would have fired him already.

I reject the conspiracy theory that Molson is keeping Bergevin to save 5 million a year.

However, one that I'd be inclined to believe is that Molson wants the next GM to come in during a fresher period. A lot of potential candidates might be afraid to come in now, as the Habs are five years away from competing. They know that they'll be excruciated by the media if they come in now.

 

[Bryson]

Moreover, the Bergevin administration is not hapless with respect to those drafting years.

Having Leblanc, Nygren, and Tinordi bust was not inevitable, it was a choice that they made. Leblanc was a good NHL player in 2011, they then decided to go on a bullying streak in order to revel in their power. Tinordi was an effective NHL player against Ottawa in 2013, the whole forum was happy with him and he was considered an untouchable.

Nygren to me was a huge loss. I really liked the kid!

Leblanc to me I see exactly as Pacioretty who was well on his way to busting...

Leblanc first year in the NHL... 10 points in 42 games.

Pacioretty first two years in the NHL... 11 points in 34 games and 14 points in 52 games.

The difference is that Pacioretty got to go in the minors and be coached by Guy Boucher. Leblanc had the displeasure of Sylvain Lefebvre.