Marc Bergevin: 5 stages of grief edition

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Wats

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Mar 8, 2006
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Leafs will need to worry about their cap very soon. Young players are out for blood these days.

Matthews is going to ask for 13 or more. He jumped to Zurich to make $$$ in his draft year rather than play JR. No way he isn't going to squeeze the "richest" team in the league for as much money as he can. Does he go full hog and ask for the max? I think its 20% of the cap if I am not mistaken.

Marner and Nylander will fall into place and want the big coin as well. McD and Drai will have nothing on the leafs kids.

In the end its a good problem to have, to have so good talent you have to pay up but Lou is going to have his work cut out for him a lot sooner than he thinks.

Good GMs of teams with a lot of young talent usually find a way to keep their best players and manage the cap with low casualties. These are the teams that actually benefit from bridge deals. Hopefully it goes wrong for the Leafs but what are the odds when they had the skill to build up all that talent.

We have a GM that made bridge deals and did not capitalize from them. Now he is already so cap strapped to the point he lost Radulov and Markov for nothing. With Price's extension and soon Pacioretty, this is only going to get worse. People saw this coming years ago.
 

WeThreeKings

Habs cup - its in the BAG
Sep 19, 2006
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Good GMs of teams with a lot of young talent usually find a way to keep their best players and manage the cap with low casualties. These are the teams that actually benefit from bridge deals.

We have a GM that made bridge deals and did not capitalize from them. Now he is already so cap strapped to the point he lost Radulov and Markov for nothing. With Price's extension and soon Pacioretty, this is only going to get worse. People saw this coming years ago.

No way, do you know the incredible foresight it took to understand we needed a top 6 C and that Markov wouldn't play forever?
 

OnTheRun

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May 17, 2014
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No way, do you know the incredible foresight it took to understand we needed a top 6 C and that Markov wouldn't play forever?

If two GIFTED professionals like Bergevin and Dudley couldn't see it coming, who the hell could?! :naughty:
 

Sorinth

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Jan 18, 2013
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Leafs have expectations now. They have a great group of forwards but watch the media/fans turn on them if they just barely make the playoffs again. They won't be catching anybody by surprise anymore. You are so right... Injuries happen and that's where depth comes in.

This isn't going to happen. Leaf fans are eternally optmistic, even if they squeak into the playoffs they'll be planning the parade.
 

Scriptor

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Jan 1, 2014
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This isn't going to happen. Leaf fans are eternally optmistic, even if they squeak into the playoffs they'll be planning the parade.


That's really not fair on your part...


...they are already planning the parade ;)
 

Scriptor

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Markov is better than Alzner regardless of age. Bergevin had 6 years to find his replacement.

The problem is that MB's plan is go with all defensive defenseman which is why traded away all of his PMD. Anybody with basic understanding of modern hockey knows this is a terrible idea.

Patience for what? To keep doing the same things over and over and expecting different results? Bergevin has a vision and it's a terrible one. It will not bring a stanley cup to Montreal. All you do by waiting is making the next GM's job that will have to come in and clean up this mess that much more difficult.

Wow, just a small step away from having written that even a two-year old would think this way :sarcasm:

Seriously, just because you wrote that doesn't make it so. Same way as screaming something doesn't make it more realistic, or a friend politely agreeing with you doesn't make it more credible...
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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Leafs will need to worry about their cap very soon. Young players are out for blood these days.

Matthews is going to ask for 13 or more. He jumped to Zurich to make $$$ in his draft year rather than play JR. No way he isn't going to squeeze the "richest" team in the league for as much money as he can. Does he go full hog and ask for the max? I think its 20% of the cap if I am not mistaken.

Marner and Nylander will fall into place and want the big coin as well. McD and Drai will have nothing on the leafs kids.

In the end its a good problem to have, to have so good talent you have to pay up but Lou is going to have his work cut out for him a lot sooner than he thinks.

That's a little optimistic, considering that by and large Lou/Dubas/Hunter/Shanny have managed the cap masterfully and gotten good deals signed. Especially with what they inherited. The Leafs still have a decent farm system.

As it is, most bad contracts aren't the ones signed by great young players. Its the ones signed by older elite players or the old-school, middle of the line-up guys that teams consistently overvalue (ex. people like to rag on Chicago paying Toews and Kane, but Seabrook's contract is their real problem). Toronto will need to pay Matthews, Marner and Nylander, sure. But they have Kadri, Reilly, Zaitsev and Andersen locked up long term on cheap deals as well. And their cap problems will stem more from what they're paying Kessel, Hyman, Martin and Marleau than their young guns.

Montreal has two top caliber guys that have bad contracts in Weber and Price. But the real problems will be the Alzner and Shaw contracts.
 

scrubadam

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I don't know how you can say he will make more than McDavid who is the new face of the NHL. 8x9.5-10 should be what he signs for and matches his value (imo).

I see Matthews at McDavid level for one. And second off he is going to be the face of the Leafs. They are the biggest team in the NHL. He is going to be praised as the guy who turned their sinking ship around. By the time his ELC is up expect him to be up there if not a bigger name than McDavid. Don't underestimate the Toronto media to push him down everyones throats.

Lets revisit in 3 years. I have a feeling he is going to be asking for one of the biggest cap hits in NHL history.
 

Belial

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Oct 22, 2014
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Good GMs of teams with a lot of young talent usually find a way to keep their best players and manage the cap with low casualties. These are the teams that actually benefit from bridge deals. Hopefully it goes wrong for the Leafs but what are the odds when they had the skill to build up all that talent.

We have a GM that made bridge deals and did not capitalize from them. Now he is already so cap strapped to the point he lost Radulov and Markov for nothing. With Price's extension and soon Pacioretty, this is only going to get worse. People saw this coming years ago.

The skill to build up that talent is called sucking, tanking and getting lucky at a lottery! I can't believe what I'm reading... :shakehead

Yes, we're so cap strapped that we have a full roster with 8.5M of cap space.
 

Hoople

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Mar 7, 2011
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You are absolutely right and this is a great post. Bergevin made the right call on both Markov and Radulov. Like you, I think he tried hard to get Radulov, but didn't want to overpay or over-commit to a long term deal, and Radulov chose to walk, that's not on Bergevin. In fact, if Bergevin had signed Radulov and Markov to the deals they wanted, people would complain about him throwing money at aging players in decline. Isn't that what people often criticize him for? That he'd rather sign aging players and mediocre players like Weise and give them ice time instead of developing young players? Well, now he is actually leaving some room on the team, which will give young players more of a chance to earn a roster spot. It's also a smart move to start the season with a lot of cap space, and take advantage of it halfway through the season or at the deadline when there might be a few teams desperate for a trade, or when the value of certain players would be lower. Why give up a lot now in a trade, when you could get the same player for less later?

The ironic thing is that this thread is titled the "5 stages of grief" edition. But Bergevin's critics actually go through the 5 stages of grief every time Bergevin does something good. They can't stand the idea that Bergevin actually did something right, because that would mean he might not be fired any time soon, and so they all go through the denial, anger, etc. Except they never reach the final stage of acceptance. It's weird how backwards so many "fans" on this board are - wanting for the team to do badly so that management would be fired, wanting management to make bad moves so that they are more likely to be fired. And when Bergevin actually does something good, THAT"s the thing that causes them to go into denial. How backwards and inside-out is that?

I agree with. For too long the Habs have spent up to the Cap with missing pieces like a Top 6 C. The Habs still need a Top 6 C (depending on Chucky and Danault's progression) but now Bergevin has the money and space to address that need. And that has become a bad thing.
 

Price is Wright

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Feb 5, 2010
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Pretty much every team trying to make a run spends between $20M-$30M on their cap on their top three players. As more and more contracts get signed after the last lockout, those contracts will average $25M+ instead of the $20-22M they tend to be currently. The cap has gone up as well so it all balances itself out.

If Toronto spends $25-$30M on their top three, kids already putting up 60 points, that's easy to work with. Especially since they got like $14M free in three years from Marleau/Horton/Martin. And still got Kadri on a very sweet deal. The only thing possibly holding Toronto back is Toronto itself.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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Good GMs of teams with a lot of young talent usually find a way to keep their best players and manage the cap with low casualties. These are the teams that actually benefit from bridge deals. Hopefully it goes wrong for the Leafs but what are the odds when they had the skill to build up all that talent.

We have a GM that made bridge deals and did not capitalize from them. Now he is already so cap strapped to the point he lost Radulov and Markov for nothing. With Price's extension and soon Pacioretty, this is only going to get worse. People saw this coming years ago.

Bridge deals? Brooklyn bridge? I bet TOR's big 3 don't sign any bridge deals. Mock my post all you want those 3 guys will be making big bucks. Maybe not Nylander because he will be traded. But Marner probably cashes in at 7 or 8 and Matthews is going to want McDavid money.

Like I said its a good problem to have but those guys aren't going to take sweethear sub 6 Million dollar deals. And the leafs won't benefit like the Pens/LA/CHI did with their backdiving pre lockout contracts. No Hossa for the leafs. No Crosby being paid 8.7 so they can get a Kessel.

Look at the Oilers. They have something like 14 Million next year to sing 14 players.
 

scrubadam

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Apr 10, 2016
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That's a little optimistic, considering that by and large Lou/Dubas/Hunter/Shanny have managed the cap masterfully and gotten good deals signed. Especially with what they inherited. The Leafs still have a decent farm system.

As it is, most bad contracts aren't the ones signed by great young players. Its the ones signed by older elite players or the old-school, middle of the line-up guys that teams consistently overvalue (ex. people like to rag on Chicago paying Toews and Kane, but Seabrook's contract is their real problem). Toronto will need to pay Matthews, Marner and Nylander, sure. But they have Kadri, Reilly, Zaitsev and Andersen locked up long term on cheap deals as well. And their cap problems will stem more from what they're paying Kessel, Hyman, Martin and Marleau than their young guns.

Montreal has two top caliber guys that have bad contracts in Weber and Price. But the real problems will be the Alzner and Shaw contracts.

I guess this is more an out of town discussion since I didn't mean to compare the leafs to the habs. Just made an offhand comment about how the leafs young guns will be wanting big salaries very soon.

We saw in EDM what is happening there. Leafs will have to deal with it. I won't comment how they will or if they will win a cup by then, just that their young guys are going to be very well paid and that day is coming soon.
 

Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
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The skill to build up that talent is called sucking, tanking and getting lucky at a lottery! I can't believe what I'm reading... :shakehead

Yes, we're so cap strapped that we have a full roster with 8.5M of cap space.

I'd take that over keeping status quo and waiting until team needs fill itself while ignoring cap implications and age of current key players.

Just because Habs are going to ice a worse lineup with more cap space doesn't mean their decisions who to keep this summer weren't being restricted by the cap. It's like watching the Leafs let JVR go next summer and with a straight face say they aren't affect by cap.
 

Price is Wright

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The skill to build up that talent is called sucking, tanking and getting lucky at a lottery! I can't believe what I'm reading... :shakehead

If you win the Stanley Cup through tanking, you don't get a bronze version. You get the Stanley Cup. Nobody cares what you did to get it.
 

V13

Fire Sell Tank
Sep 21, 2005
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Good GMs of teams with a lot of young talent usually find a way to keep their best players and manage the cap with low casualties. These are the teams that actually benefit from bridge deals. Hopefully it goes wrong for the Leafs but what are the odds when they had the skill to build up all that talent.

.

You don't need to be a magician for that though. Just the balls to do a true rebuild.

Sell.Suck.Draft (high). Do that for a few years and you will eventually be loaded with young blue chip prospects/franchises players and maybe a generational talent if you're lucky.
 

Scriptor

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Jan 1, 2014
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Bridge deals? Brooklyn bridge? I bet TOR's big 3 don't sign any bridge deals. Mock my post all you want those 3 guys will be making big bucks. Maybe not Nylander because he will be traded. But Marner probably cashes in at 7 or 8 and Matthews is going to want McDavid money.

Like I said its a good problem to have but those guys aren't going to take sweethear sub 6 Million dollar deals. And the leafs won't benefit like the Pens/LA/CHI did with their backdiving pre lockout contracts. No Hossa for the leafs. No Crosby being paid 8.7 so they can get a Kessel.

Look at the Oilers. They have something like 14 Million next year to sing 14 players.[/QUOTE]

It's a valid point, but it's more like 13M (if they keep a respectable 1M for IR) to sign 10 players. Still tight, but not 14M for 14 players tight.
 

Captain Mountain

Formerly Captain Wolverine
Jun 6, 2010
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I guess this is more an out of town discussion since I didn't mean to compare the leafs to the habs. Just made an offhand comment about how the leafs young guns will be wanting big salaries very soon.

We saw in EDM what is happening there. Leafs will have to deal with it. I won't comment how they will or if they will win a cup by then, just that their young guys are going to be very well paid and that day is coming soon.

Why would Edmonton care? Their problem isn't going to be McD or Drai, it'll be paying Russell and Lucic a combined 10 mil a year in cap space.

Pay your elite talent. Don't pay past prime guys or overrated middle of the lineup types. Especially those that get paid disproportionately for grit or toughness.
 

Frozenice

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Jan 1, 2010
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You don't need to be a magician for that though. Just the balls to do a true rebuild.

Sell.Suck.Draft (high). Do that for a few years and you will eventually be loaded with young blue chip prospects/franchises players and maybe a generational talent if you're lucky.

Having Drouin, Galchenyuk and Price means we don't need many pieces, maybe a Top LD and a true #1 centre.

We don't need to suffer like the Leafs, Tampa, Florida, the Avs or the Oilers did for close to a decade, a bad year or two and that's all we need to endure to get the pieces we need.
 
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